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    The origin of hane goshi?

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    langoustine

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    The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by langoustine on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:28 am

    So we got an interesting mystery over on Reddit on who invented hane goshi, and if it was Yoshitsugu Yamashita, then whether he modified harai goshi or uchimata into hane goshi. http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1ir190/entertaining_throw_demonstration_presumably_by/cb7p42k?context=1

    Can anyone resolve this?

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:37 am

    I recall a story about how he had an injured leg had something to do with it...



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    Q mystic

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Q mystic on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:45 am

    I remember falling in love with Hane goshi back in the late 80's from just a pic on the back of a judo book. Was never really taught it and sensei only trained me in it because I almost insisted. I never scored beans with it but believe it was very developmental for me then. I think I learned a lot about control just from that pic. I think it was the body contact. There might be more but at the time it seemed most.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:41 pm

    langoustine wrote:So we got an interesting mystery over on Reddit on who invented hane goshi, and if it was Yoshitsugu Yamashita, then whether he modified harai goshi or uchimata into hane goshi. http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1ir190/entertaining_throw_demonstration_presumably_by/cb7p42k?context=1

    Can anyone resolve this?

    Sorry, but I have two questions:

    1. Numbers by superscript in the text are referring to references which I don't see. How do we know the sources these references are referring to. It is one thing to say in a text that a writing from this or that date says this or that, but as a scholar I would like to know the reference of these writings so I can check them and read and interpret them myself.

    2. What I don't quite understand is what knee injury would hurt when doing harai-goshi but not when doing hane-goshi ... It would rather be the other way around, but anyhow.


    I don't believe at all that Iizuka would have been the inventor of hane-goshi, I know that Kawakami was the inventor of hane-seoi-nage, a technique that is extremely rare today.


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    langoustine

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by langoustine on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:50 pm

    [/quote]
    1. Numbers by superscript in the text are referring to references which I don't see. How do we know the sources these references are referring to. It is one thing to say in a text that a writing from this or that date says this or that, but as a scholar I would like to know the reference of these writings so I can check them and read and interpret them myself.
    [/quote]

    From the pdf:
    1 Judo Kodokan Magazine, Vol. XI – No 1, Jan. 1961
    2 Judo Kodokan Magazine, Vol. III – 15 May 1957
    3 Judo Kodokan Magazine, Vol. VII - No 2, 15 March 1956
    4 Henri Courtine, Judo et Jiu-Jitsu, 1977, Éd. Denoël

    Old Chestnut

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Old Chestnut on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:37 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:...Kawakami was the inventor of hane-seoi-nage, a technique that is extremely rare today.

    Could you describe it? It's always interesting to learn about rare techniques.

    wdax

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by wdax on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:56 pm

    Whoever "Geschichtenerzaehler" is, he (or she) quoted correctly from Daigo: "Wurftechniken des Kodokan Judo" (p.237). Around the time, when Y. Yamashita wrote this article, Hane-goshi was one of the most popular nage-waza in judo.

    But the problem behind the problem is, that many techniques have many inventors, and you can never be sure, if there is really a single inventor or a group, or some independent developements. And yu never know, who had the original idea and who refined the technique...

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:54 pm

    Old Chestnut wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:...Kawakami was the inventor of hane-seoi-nage, a technique that is extremely rare today.

    Could you describe it? It's always interesting to learn about rare techniques.

    Upper body part in seoi-nage action, lower body part in hane-goshi action.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    techman

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by techman on Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:28 am

    In his book "Dynamic Judo " Kazuzo Kudo 9th dan published by Japan Publications Trading Company in 1967. The following quote appears:
    During his stay in the United States, from 1902 - 1909, Yoshiaki Yamashita, one of the earliest men to teach judo abroad, instructed President Theodore Roosevelt, while his wife Fudeko lead some of the most prominent American wives in judo training.
    Because Yamashita from time to time suffered pain in his right leg knee, he usually performed hip techniques with his right leg slightly bent. He has said, however, to have been very good at them

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:10 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    langoustine wrote:So we got an interesting mystery over on Reddit on who invented hane goshi, and if it was Yoshitsugu Yamashita, then whether he modified harai goshi or uchimata into hane goshi. http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1ir190/entertaining_throw_demonstration_presumably_by/cb7p42k?context=1

    Can anyone resolve this?

    Sorry, but I have two questions:

    1. Numbers by superscript in the text are referring to references which I don't see. How do we know the sources these references are referring to. It is one thing to say in a text that a writing from this or that date says this or that, but as a scholar I would like to know the reference of these writings so I can check them and read and interpret them myself.

    2. What I don't quite understand is what knee injury would hurt when doing harai-goshi but not when doing hane-goshi ...  It would rather be the other way around, but anyhow.


    I don't believe at all that Iizuka would have been the inventor of hane-goshi, I know that Kawakami was the inventor of hane-seoi-nage, a technique that is extremely rare today.

    I don't know what kind of knee injury either. I do remember reading about it somewhere though...all my books are still in boxes from moving, LOL!


    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:12 am

    techman wrote:In his book "Dynamic Judo " Kazuzo Kudo 9th dan published by Japan Publications Trading Company in 1967. The following quote appears:
    During his stay in the United States, from 1902 - 1909, Yoshiaki Yamashita, one of the earliest men to teach judo abroad, instructed President Theodore Roosevelt, while his wife Fudeko lead some of the most prominent American wives in judo training.
    Because Yamashita from time to time suffered pain in his right leg knee, he usually performed  hip techniques with his right leg slightly bent. He has said, however, to have been very good at them

    That's it! Must be what I'm remembering, I have that book.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:15 am

    techman wrote:In his book "Dynamic Judo " Kazuzo Kudo 9th dan published by Japan Publications Trading Company in 1967. The following quote appears:
    During his stay in the United States, from 1902 - 1909, Yoshiaki Yamashita, one of the earliest men to teach judo abroad, instructed President Theodore Roosevelt, while his wife Fudeko lead some of the most prominent American wives in judo training.
    Because Yamashita from time to time suffered pain in his right leg knee, he usually performed  hip techniques with his right leg slightly bent. He has said, however, to have been very good at them

    So ? OK, he got pain in his right knee. He mediates this by bending his right knee during hip throws.

    I still fail to see how this would make it difficult to do harai-goshi but make it easier to do hane-goshi. One confounder obviously is whether he was a leftie or a did techniques to the right side. That must be taken into account when considering the effect of an injured right knee on performing hip throws.

    I am sorry, but this point has to be made. There is just so much nonsense in judo stories and anecdotes. If anyone can explain to me which knee injury makes it difficult to do harai-goshi but facilitate hane-goshi, I would be very interested. In most cases, if the injury is so serious that harai-goshi is difficult or impossible, then hane-goshi is certainly difficult or impossible. I don't think that this problem can be prevented when doing hane-goshi to the other side. After all if there is a knee injury, making the sweeping leg the supporting leg will be even more impossible.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    aspenrebel

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by aspenrebel on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:12 pm

    langoustine wrote:So we got an interesting mystery over on Reddit on who invented hane goshi, and if it was Yoshitsugu Yamashita, then whether he modified harai goshi or uchimata into hane goshi. http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1ir190/entertaining_throw_demonstration_presumably_by/cb7p42k?context=1

    Can anyone resolve this?
    Didn't I hear it was Yamashita who developed Hane Goshi because he had injured his knee??? But I'm sure the Experts will dispute this. We/I shall see, I'm sure.

    aspenrebel

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by aspenrebel on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:16 pm

    Q mystic wrote:I remember falling in love with Hane goshi back in the late 80's from just a pic on the back of a judo book. Was never really taught it and sensei only trained me in it because I almost insisted. I never scored beans with it but believe it was very developmental for me then. I think I learned a lot about control just from that pic. I think it was the body contact. There might be more but at the time it seemed most.
    Hane Goshi was my Chief Instructors favorite and best technique. It was like getting hit with a sledgehammer!! He was relatively shorter than average, but had very strong legs, thighs, calves, and quite strong upper body too. His "pull" and "snap" was very strong. His use of his hips was exceptional. When he executed Hane Goshi, yikes!!! It was like you just got hit with the front bumper of a car!!!

    aspenrebel

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by aspenrebel on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:22 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    langoustine wrote:So we got an interesting mystery over on Reddit on who invented hane goshi, and if it was Yoshitsugu Yamashita, then whether he modified harai goshi or uchimata into hane goshi. http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1ir190/entertaining_throw_demonstration_presumably_by/cb7p42k?context=1

    Can anyone resolve this?
    Sorry, but I have two questions:

    1. Numbers by superscript in the text are referring to references which I don't see. How do we know the sources these references are referring to. It is one thing to say in a text that a writing from this or that date says this or that, but as a scholar I would like to know the reference of these writings so I can check them and read and interpret them myself.

    2. What I don't quite understand is what knee injury would hurt when doing harai-goshi but not when doing hane-goshi ...  It would rather be the other way around, but anyhow.


    I don't believe at all that Iizuka would have been the inventor of hane-goshi, I know that Kawakami was the inventor of hane-seoi-nage, a technique that is extremely rare today.
    CK, in regards to your #2 above, I always wondered that myself. But that is what I had always heard. That he developed Hane Goshi cuz he injured his knew. But since I don't do Hane Goshi, I really can't comment further.

    What the heck is "hane seoi nage"??? I'm going to have to dwell on that one for awhile. Huh? "... extremely rare today".. I gather!!! I'll have to add that one to my Writings.

    aspenrebel

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    Join date : 2013-03-04

    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by aspenrebel on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:27 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    techman wrote:In his book "Dynamic Judo " Kazuzo Kudo 9th dan published by Japan Publications Trading Company in 1967. The following quote appears:
    During his stay in the United States, from 1902 - 1909, Yoshiaki Yamashita, one of the earliest men to teach judo abroad, instructed President Theodore Roosevelt, while his wife Fudeko lead some of the most prominent American wives in judo training.
    Because Yamashita from time to time suffered pain in his right leg knee, he usually performed  hip techniques with his right leg slightly bent. He has said, however, to have been very good at them
    So ?  OK, he got pain in his right knee. He mediates this by bending his right knee during hip throws.

    I still fail to see how this would make it difficult to do harai-goshi but make it easier to do hane-goshi. One confounder obviously is whether he was a leftie or a did techniques to the right side. That must be taken into account when considering the effect of an injured right knee on performing hip throws.

    I am sorry, but this point has to be made. There is just so much nonsense in judo stories and anecdotes. If anyone can explain to me which knee injury makes it difficult to do harai-goshi but facilitate hane-goshi, I would be very interested. In most cases, if the injury is so serious that harai-goshi is difficult or impossible, then hane-goshi is certainly difficult or impossible. I don't think that this problem can be prevented when doing hane-goshi to the other side. After all if there is a knee injury, making the sweeping leg the supporting leg will be even more impossible.
    Well, CK, we know you are "medical", but could it possible be that he had a knee injury which was LESS painful when he kept his knee bent, Hane Goshi, as opposed to straighter, Harai Goshi? Perhaps an injury, pain, to the back of the knee? Thus by keeping the knee bent, it alleviates the pain? I dunno.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:26 am

    aspenrebel wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    langoustine wrote:So we got an interesting mystery over on Reddit on who invented hane goshi, and if it was Yoshitsugu Yamashita, then whether he modified harai goshi or uchimata into hane goshi. http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1ir190/entertaining_throw_demonstration_presumably_by/cb7p42k?context=1

    Can anyone resolve this?
    Sorry, but I have two questions:

    1. Numbers by superscript in the text are referring to references which I don't see. How do we know the sources these references are referring to. It is one thing to say in a text that a writing from this or that date says this or that, but as a scholar I would like to know the reference of these writings so I can check them and read and interpret them myself.

    2. What I don't quite understand is what knee injury would hurt when doing harai-goshi but not when doing hane-goshi ...  It would rather be the other way around, but anyhow.


    I don't believe at all that Iizuka would have been the inventor of hane-goshi, I know that Kawakami was the inventor of hane-seoi-nage, a technique that is extremely rare today.
    CK, in regards to your #2 above, I always wondered that myself. But that is what I had always heard. That he developed Hane Goshi cuz he injured his knew. But since I don't do Hane Goshi, I really can't comment further.

    What the heck is "hane seoi nage"???  I'm going to have to dwell on that one for awhile.  Huh?   "... extremely rare today".. I gather!!!   I'll have to add that one to my Writings.
    In hane-seoi-nage, you enter with your right arm under uke's right armpit as in morote-seoi-nage, and you then place the right leg inside uke's inside right leg as in hane-goshi. Kawakami-sensei was rather short which may have added to his choice for this throw. If I recall well the throw performed by him is included on one of Hal Sharp's commercially available DVDs. It's one of those rare throws, like for example, Mifune's uchi-guruma that have basically disappeared from contemporary judo.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    noboru

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    HANE GOSHI Analysis and technical applications

    Post by noboru on Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:27 am

    Here is one interesting pdf document about throw technique Hane goshi from webpage IMAF Switzerland . Author is Mr. Pascal DUPRÉ from IMAF Switzerland Branch Direction.

    HANE GOSHI Analysis and technical applications
    http://www.imaf-ch.org/IMG/pdf/20111008_renshi_dupre_pascal_english.pdf

    noboru

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    Hanegoshi variations

    Post by noboru on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:33 pm

    In the document above are described some variations of Hanegoshi throwing technique.
    I found two interesting videos about Hanegoshi:

    First is compilation some videos.


    First is part of Hanegoshi from Kodokan VHS about Gokyo (I think) - we can see Hanegoshi with movement back to uke and to side - this cases are described in PDF above - I think, that it is the same as Daigo sensei wrote in his book about Kodokan Nage waza.
    Important is direction of looking (head) during tsukuri->kake to direction of falling. Toshihiko Koga it explained very well in his videos. Direction of looking (head) during tsukuri->kake is direction of heading of our power to throwing.

    Next are some historic videos.
    First is unknown japanese judoka for me. Second is other uknown japanese judoka and last is Kyuzo Mifune. I think that Mifune's Hanegoshi is just the little bit differrent from previous versions from Kodokan VHS and unknown judokas - The Hanegoshi on the first three videos (Kodokan VHS, unknown judoka 1, unknown judoka 2) are more leg - spring.
    Mifune has the right leg straight and left leg very bend and during kake he straights up the bend left leg (he pushes a lot to ukes leg) and it gives the energy to throw. it looks like that he does the leg - spring in opposite leg ...
    Very interesting see it.

    Here is explanation of Hanegoshi from Hirano Ryosaku sensei.

    Interesting foot working during tsukuri. The good hips/tanden working is important - hips go straight-ahead... I know this foot working etc. in goshi uchimata variation (for example from Kosei Inoue).

    Very interesting see it too.


    Last edited by noboru on Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Ryvai

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Ryvai on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:46 pm

    noboru wrote:
    Interesting foot working during tsukuri. The good hips/tanden working is important - hips go straight-ahead... I know this foot working etc. in goshi uchimata variation (for example from Kosei Inoue).

    Interesting indeed, I like his style. Isn't this the typical oikomi, or sort of 'rubber-band' entry? Smile

    Btw, the unknown judoka 2, in the first video is Tokio Hirano I believe.

    noboru wrote:Important is direction of looking (head) during tsukuri->kake. To direction of falling. Toshihiko Koga it explained very well in his videos. Direction of looking (head) during tsukuri->kake is direction of heading of our power to throwing.

    Hiroshi Katanishi-sensei explained to me this summer that the direction you are looking should be perpendicular to the line that goes between your shoulders. If you look the left or right of your shoulders, you loose power. Instead rotate your upper body, keeping your view fixed perpendicular to the line between the shoulders, in practice this means you look where you are throwing, yes, but not before your shoulders and upper body is in line for the throw. This also means that you should not look backwards during uchi-komi, but many times 90 degrees off uke, as turning your shoulders more than 90 degrees would start the phase of kake thus ruining the rhythm of the uchi-komi. This was a very eye-opening explaination for me Smile

    noboru

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    direction of looking

    Post by noboru on Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:59 pm

    Ryvai wrote:
    Hiroshi Katanishi-sensei explained to me this summer that the direction you are looking should be perpendicular to the line that goes between your shoulders. If you look the left or right of your shoulders, you loose power. Instead rotate your upper body, keeping your view fixed perpendicular to the line between the shoulders, in practice this means you look where you are throwing, yes, but not before your shoulders and upper body is in line for the throw. This also means that you should not look backwards during uchi-komi, but many times 90 degrees off uke, as turning your shoulders more than 90 degrees would start the phase of kake thus ruining the rhythm of the uchi-komi. This was a very eye-opening explaination for me Smile

    For me too. Thank you a lot.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The origin of hane goshi?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:56 am

    noboru wrote:In the document above are described some variations of Hanegoshi throwing technique.
    I found two interesting videos about Hanegoshi:

    First is compilation some videos.


    First is part of Hanegoshi from Kodokan VHS about Gokyo (I think) - we can see Hanegoshi with movement back to uke and to side - this cases are described in PDF above - I think, that it is the same as Daigo sensei wrote in his book about Kodokan Nage waza.
    Important is direction of looking (head) during tsukuri->kake  to direction of falling. Toshihiko Koga it explained very well in his videos. Direction of looking (head) during tsukuri->kake is direction of heading of our power to throwing.

    Next are some historic videos.
    First is unknown japanese judoka for me. Second is other uknown japanese judoka and last is Kyuzo Mifune. I think that Mifune's Hanegoshi is just the little bit differrent from previous versions from Kodokan VHS and unknown judokas - The Hanegoshi on the first three videos (Kodokan VHS, unknown judoka 1, unknown judoka 2) are more leg - spring.

    Second clip: Koike Tadashi

    Third clip: Hirano Tokio


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

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