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    So why.. no seriously why....

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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:38 pm

    Ok... So I am honestly asking this and I dont mean to be offensive but why is there a specific Aikido sub forum? BJJ, JJJ, Sambo, Submission Wrestling, I can see.. but Aikido? What is the logic there?


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    BillC

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by BillC on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:03 pm

    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:Ok... So I am honestly asking this and I dont mean to be offensive but why is there a specific Aikido sub forum? BJJ, JJJ, Sambo, Submission Wrestling, I can see.. but Aikido? What is the logic there?

    Probably just to piss you off ... Twisted Evil
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:56 am

    there are a fair amount of judoka who also do aikido. personally I never saw the appeal of it, but that's just me. one of my buddies does aikido, and he doesn't see the appeal of judo, so I guess we're even.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by nomoremondays on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:35 am

    I think if I wanted to try any other M.A aikido for me is a strong candidate. I find the way they incorporate whole body movement into their techniques fascinating. Don't think it will be at any point in the near future though. Got whole bits of judo to still figure out...
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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:15 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:Ok... So I am honestly asking this and I dont mean to be offensive but why is there a specific Aikido sub forum? BJJ, JJJ, Sambo, Submission Wrestling, I can see.. but Aikido? What is the logic there?

    Probably just to piss you off ... Twisted Evil

    HA! Most likely! But seriously, I am curious as to why people who do an art steeped in effectiveness, i.e. judo, would do an art that's clearly not... Now I am not trolling, seriously, I have always wondered this and I would honestly like to know why some judoka choose to practice aikido... Sambo, BJJ, even JJJ, sub-wrestling, etc. I can understand, but aikido?

    What about having a breakout of topic areas as follows: Grappling arts, Striking Arts and Trad arts? Just a thought...


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    JudoMojo

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by JudoMojo on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:39 am

    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:Ok... So I am honestly asking this and I dont mean to be offensive but why is there a specific Aikido sub forum? BJJ, JJJ, Sambo, Submission Wrestling, I can see.. but Aikido? What is the logic there?

    Probably just to piss you off ... Twisted Evil

    HA! Most likely! But seriously, I am curious as to why people who do an art steeped in effectiveness, i.e. judo, would do an art that's clearly not... Now I am not trolling, seriously, I have always wondered this and I would honestly like to know why some judoka choose to practice aikido... Sambo, BJJ, even JJJ, sub-wrestling, etc. I can understand, but aikido?

    What about having a breakout of topic areas as follows: Grappling arts, Striking Arts and Trad arts? Just a thought...

    I guess Judo in some ways is close to traditional MA like Aikido and JJJ, although now modern judo (as I learn it anyway) is much more alike to Brazilian jiujitsu/Sambo/wrestling ect, ie: has a strong sport focus. Having 3 sub-forums: Striking, Grappling and Traditional seems the most logical way to organize things. Maybe split Traditional into Traditional/Other as a general subforum for non combat sport arts.
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    judoratt

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by judoratt on Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:10 am

    As long as we are not trolling Smile and asking questions, why do we have 17 forums and sub forums for kata?Very Happy:D

    BTW the smiley faces imply I am joking.
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    finarashi

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by finarashi on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:38 pm

    various diciplines can have practitioners of different aim and the discipline can be viewed based on those practitioners as 'non effective' but one has to scratch the surface deep and find what really goes on to know the truth.

    Internet trols can argue (and do) that there is very little effectiveness in dicipline that has developed effective counters to 'baddie grabs your arm' 'baddie tries to grab your shoulder', 'baddie tries to hold you' ... There is much frivolity towards dicipline that tries to find the direction and way where you can control your opponent without force.

    I have only done wresling, Judo, aikido, karate and boxing. But apart from Judo I would like to practice Aikido the most.


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    BillC

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by BillC on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:46 am

    judoratt wrote:As long as we are not trolling Smile and asking questions, why do we have 17 forums and sub forums for kata?Very Happy:D

    BTW the smiley faces imply I am joking.

    Not entirely a joke ... the original addition showed up as pages of subtopics all listed in serial fashion down the page. I note that this morning it is arranged better, thank you mods for doing so.
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    Jimgo

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Jimgo on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:23 am

    finarashi wrote:various diciplines can have practitioners of different aim and the discipline can be viewed based on those practitioners as 'non effective' but one has to scratch the surface deep and find what really goes on to know the truth.

    Internet trols can argue (and do) that there is very little effectiveness in dicipline that has developed effective counters to 'baddie grabs your arm' 'baddie tries to grab your shoulder', 'baddie tries to hold you' ... There is much frivolity towards dicipline that tries to find the direction and way where you can control your opponent without force.

    I have only done wresling, Judo, aikido, karate and boxing. But apart from Judo I would like to practice Aikido the most.

    I think the effectiveness argument is one thing and can be discussed about Aikido ad nauseam. One point on this many effective police wrist locks are adaptations of Aikido techniques. My old instructor used to refer to Aikido as being the "art for retired Judo players." I think even he would admit to being a bit naughty with this description because he loved Aikido exactly because of its similarities to Judo.

    The real issue is that Aikido and Judo share so many fundamental principles and concepts ie. the power of circular motion and breaking of balance are absolutely central to both. I certainly don't feel any of the other fighting forms put forward in the initial post aspire to what Aikido and Judo do.
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    sodo

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by sodo on Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:07 am

    Jimgo wrote:
    finarashi wrote:various diciplines can have practitioners of different aim and the discipline can be viewed based on those practitioners as 'non effective' but one has to scratch the surface deep and find what really goes on to know the truth.

    Internet trols can argue (and do) that there is very little effectiveness in dicipline that has developed effective counters to 'baddie grabs your arm' 'baddie tries to grab your shoulder', 'baddie tries to hold you' ... There is much frivolity towards dicipline that tries to find the direction and way where you can control your opponent without force.

    I have only done wresling, Judo, aikido, karate and boxing. But apart from Judo I would like to practice Aikido the most.

    I think the effectiveness argument is one thing and can be discussed about Aikido ad nauseam. One point on this many effective police wrist locks are adaptations of Aikido techniques. My old instructor used to refer to Aikido as being the "art for retired Judo players." I think even he would admit to being a bit naughty with this description because he loved Aikido exactly because of its similarities to Judo.

    The real issue is that Aikido and Judo share so many fundamental principles and concepts ie. the power of circular motion and breaking of balance are absolutely central to both. I certainly don't feel any of the other fighting forms put forward in the initial post aspire to what Aikido and Judo do.

    Hi Jim,
    I agree totally, that is where judo differs from most grappling sports/arts.

    atb
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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Guest on Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:34 am

    The answer is simply a matter of cladistics. They are all closely related martial arts that all sprang from Traditional Japanese Jujitsu schools . Specifically the Tenjin Shinyō-ryū was a big influence on both Aikido and Judo. In fact Kano is claimed to have said "Aikido is the true Judo" and sent some of his students to learn more from Aikido to improve their Judo. BJJ of course was initiated by Maeda and Judo in general. So taxonomically speaking you could look as various traditional Jujitsu schools as being the parents , Judo and Aikido being the children and BJJ as the grandchild .
    The true value of a martial art is not necessarily its effectiveness in the Octagon ,nonetheless, as some have mentioned, police, people working with disturbed teenagers, security etc have been known to use the wristlocks found in Aikido and Traditional Jujitsu on untrained people for restraining purposes to great effect. Hope this helps answer your question .
    I've added a sambo subforum as well though as that is also closely related.
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    BillC

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by BillC on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:27 am

    Dew wrote:The answer is simply a matter of cladistics.

    Word of the day! Thanks, Dew.

    And you said there was nothing to be learned from a judo forum ... Rolling Eyes
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    Ouch_that_hurts

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Ouch_that_hurts on Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:14 pm

    BillC wrote:
    Dew wrote:The answer is simply a matter of cladistics.

    Word of the day! Thanks, Dew.

    And you said there was nothing to be learned from a judo forum ... Rolling Eyes

    Yeah had to look that one up as well...well done! I guess my point was more about about a distinction between combat sports v a martial arts, while i see Judo as a "martial art", i view it more in the vein or leaning towards that of a combat sport, even Kano said that Shai and randori was essential to learning the judo..... while aikido has no element of this... similarly, bjj, sambo, etc have elements of competition that are essential to the arts... Thoughts?


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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Guest on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:21 pm

    Ouch_that_hurts wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    Dew wrote:The answer is simply a matter of cladistics.

    Word of the day! Thanks, Dew.

    And you said there was nothing to be learned from a judo forum ... Rolling Eyes

    Yeah had to look that one up as well...well done! I guess my point was more about about a distinction between combat sports v a martial arts, while i see Judo as a "martial art", i view it more in the vein or leaning towards that of a combat sport, even Kano said that Shai and randori was essential to learning the judo..... while aikido has no element of this... similarly, bjj, sambo, etc have elements of competition that are essential to the arts... Thoughts?

    Lack of full contact sparring is definitely a turn off for me. Not because of effectiveness or whatever - I just find if I don't o bright red, feel like puking and push myself to my limits- I dont feel like I've trained properly .OK Ok techniques good too but....
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:06 am

    One of Kano's early ringers, Siago Shioda (?) was a man who studied Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu (I think before Takeda renamed it that?) and Daito Ryu is the principle art Usheiba developed Aikido out of. The Yamarashi he slammed people on their heads with is not the same in modern Judo.

    Now Judo and Aikdo as been pointed oput are both children of Ju Jutsu, both are Budo so it would make sense that many Judoka, for many reasons might find value in Aikido.

    What Aiki Jujutsu does for our Ju Jutsu is develope better sensitivity, better Kazushi and better understanding of differnt balance and leverage points and this contribute directly to our self defense and Nega Waza (We have a lot of Judo Waza in our system).

    So I can see this being excelent crosstraining for a Judoka, along with the ukemi of Aikido and practicsing in a way that does not bang you up as much as Judo or Ju Jutsu.

    And not all Aikidoka are as ineffective as some of the posters here sem to have "clear" evedence of.

    Robert Koga liked it and he has taught more cops how to subdue idots than just about any single DT instructor in the USA.

    It was sad to hear of his passing.

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:51 am

    Tai-Jutsu wrote: One of Kano's early ringers, Siago Shioda (?) was a man who studied Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu (I think before Takeda renamed it that?) and Daito Ryu is the principle art Usheiba developed Aikido out of. The Yamarashi he slammed people on their heads with is not the same in modern Judo.
    Saigō Shirō, not " Siago Shioda "


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    BillC

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by BillC on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:54 am

    Tai-Jutsu wrote: One of Kano's early ringers, Siago Shioda (?)

    Would you believe ... Asiago Shiru?


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    DougNZ

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:17 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Saigō Shirō, not " Siago Shioda "
    BillC wrote:Would you believe ... Asiago Shiru?
    Come one, you two ... sort it out! Evil or Very Mad   A combined reputation of almost 200 and you can't agree? Twisted Evil


    Last edited by DougNZ on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:17 am

    That's why I put the (?) because I have seen it spelled and pronounced so many ways between my old Sensie, Judo books, Draeger's Modern Bu Jutsu and Budo and on Judo forums.

    And the stories about him change too.

    But the point is Kano saw value in having guys from other systems of Ju Jutsu within Kano-Ryu and Judo. Enough value to use some as his champions to prove his art's effectivness and worth to others, like the famous Tokyo Police matches, ect.

    One being from the art that spawnded Aikido (and buy the Daito Ryu vs Aikido slinging matches can get ugly too.


    Last edited by Tai-Jutsu on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

    DougNZ

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:21 am

    Today's lesson might be to proof read one's posts before pushing the 'send' button. A couple of letters around the wrong way can cause all manner of hackles to rise.
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:24 am

    Kind of suprised there is not a Karate and other Striking arts forum.

    I've known many Judoka with training in such arts.

    Maybe just not that much traffic for it on the old Judo forum?

    CK schools in 3..2.. Very Happy 
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:32 am

    Tai-Jutsu wrote:Kind of suprised there is not a Karate and other Striking arts forum.

    I've known many Judoka with training in such arts.

    Maybe just not that much traffic for it on the old Judo forum?

    CK schools in 3..2.. Very Happy 
    I did karate, jûjutsu, iaijutsu, kendô and a tiny bit of aikidô just for a very short time. While I still have an interest in many of these it is virtually impossible as an adult with a professioal career to keep practicing all of them or even one art seriously. I think NBK still does several. Ask him how he does it.

    Besides, another problem is the continuation of schools. Some of these pop up, but don't stay. Why did I quit kendô, because the school couldn't survive and moved elsewhere and as a kid I did not have a car and neither did my parents; besides the equipment for kendô was outrageously expensive for simple people in the days when credit cards did not exist.

    Aikidô I only did because our course and exams for the highest state instructor's certification in jûjutsu also required aikidô.So, I went there to get up to speed, without the objective to continue after passing my tests for jûjutsu, and I stuck with that.

    Iaijutsu, in those days you could only find serious instruction in Japan. So really judo and karate were the only arts for which you readily could find clubs. Of the three judo clubs in town which existed when I was a kid and of which I was a remember, only one has survived, which is the one I am now instructor-in-chief of. The strong karate club of which I was a member 35 years ago has long ceased to exist and even the entire style of karate (kyokushinkai) barely exists anymore. Really, it was too hard. All decent fighters from those days are either death or in wheelchairs, by means of speaking; it was thàt tough.


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    NBK

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by NBK on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:25 pm

    多芸は無芸。。。。 Embarassed 
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: So why.. no seriously why....

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:49 pm

    NBK wrote:多芸は無芸。。。。 Embarassed 
    多分、貴方は、レオナルド・ダ・ヴィンチのですか? cheers 


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