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    Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

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    Ryvai

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    Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:11 pm

    We all teach Yoko-ukemi to the kids in the dojo. Proper ukemi is one of the things that are essential for good judo. We teach Yoko-ukemi to the kids not only to both sides, but also slapping the mat with either hand to both sides.

    Why? Because in De-ashi-barai tori holds (traditionally) uke's right sleeve which uke learns to slap the mat with when falling to that side. If a kid has not prepped his nervous system and makes this connection in training to slap with the other hand, the kid might put down his elbow and hurt himself. We must therefore teach them to slap with the opposite hand in yoko-ukemi aswell in my oppinion. This is to prepare them for those ackward ukemi situations where the "slapping hand" is obstructed by tori's grip, which happens naturally in de-ashi-barai.

    What do you guys think? Smile

    Co10Broek

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Co10Broek on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:29 pm

    I'm pretty sure I didn't understand your question. I think if I'm falling on my right side (yoko ukemi) and I need to slap with my left hand, that I haven't fallen on my side. If tori is holding uke's right sleeve why is uke falling on his right side?
    See this video (1st one I found on youtube):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFgPK3l5d9U

    Tori holds uke's right sleeve, attacks uke's right leg and uke lands on his left side.

    Ro

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Ro on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:32 am

    The "slapping hand" does help in any ukemi but the hand isn't the only part that makes ukemi work. You must remember that the whole body is involved during ukemi. I don't think the opposite added hand slap in an awkward falling situation is going to provide a better falling experience. In fact I would say that it might confuse juniors resulting in their ukemi skills being all over the place. This also depends on the skill level of those juniors.

    Of course I might be confusing what the OP is really talking about. Maybe he is stating that juniors need to do both left and right sided ukemi? Or is he stating that instructors are modifying juniors yoko ukemi to slap with both hands?

    ccwscott

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by ccwscott on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:51 am

    Yeah, if you're falling on your left side properly, throwing down your right elbow should be impossible.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:11 am

    Ryvai wrote:We all teach Yoko-ukemi to the kids in the dojo. Proper ukemi is one of the things that are essential for good judo. We teach Yoko-ukemi to the kids not only to both sides, but also slapping the mat with either hand to both sides.

    Why? Because in De-ashi-barai tori holds (traditionally) uke's right sleeve which uke learns to slap the mat with when falling to that side. If a kid has not prepped his nervous system and makes this connection in training to slap with the other hand, the kid might put down his elbow and hurt himself. We must therefore teach them to slap with the opposite hand in yoko-ukemi aswell in my oppinion. This is to prepare them for those ackward ukemi situations where the "slapping hand" is obstructed by tori's grip, which happens naturally in de-ashi-barai.

    What do you guys think? Smile

    What 'I' think is that I would like to see you demonstrate your de-ashi-barai in the light of "Because in De-ashi-barai tori holds (traditionally) uke's right sleeve which uke learns to slap the mat with when falling to that side."

    In jûdô, when a throw is performed to the right (which depending on the throw might be either with left or right foot or hand, since the direction is actually determined by the ukemi, not by the side tori uses [some argue that it is actually the grip, but the problem with that view is that it is perfectly possible in most cases to perform a right throw from a left grip or the other way around]) uke slaps the tatami with the left hand (one of the classical exception to this rule is sukui-nage). So, from that point I have difficulties following your rationale. It seems to me that I am not the only one being confused.

    The approach you are using within judo can hardly be called appropriate ukemi. That is not to say that any ukemi other than those classically taught in judo is without merit. Some koryû schools have ukemi which do not exist in judo or which are considered dangerous or incorrect in judo. One such example are falling in bridge. This actually does exist as a proper ukemi in some koryû schools. But obviously that is not what it is about here. This is about jûdô ukemi, proper jûdô ukemi. As I am failing to grasp the rationale you provided, I am not supportive of it, unless we are talking about "adapted judo", for example in the case of a one-armed judoka, who can only make proper yoko-ukemi to one side, and would have to modify ukemi technique to the other side in order to be safe and be prepared for being thrown either side.


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    jkw

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by jkw on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:05 am

    Ryvai wrote:What do you guys think? Smile

    I think for right-handed sleeve-lapel gripping situation, the ukemi should look like this:

    Ryvai

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Ryvai on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:30 am

    jkw wrote:
    Ryvai wrote:What do you guys think? Smile

    I think for right-handed sleeve-lapel gripping situation, the ukemi should look like this:

    I think i would like to see your 8 year old student judoka perform that kind of ukemi ^_^

    Ryvai

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Ryvai on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:53 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    So, from that point I have difficulties following your rationale. It seems to me that I am not the only one being confused.

    Bah, I wish I would explain my post in better words. Please keep in mind this is ukemi for kids, that do not fly around like Osawa-sensei and his uke. Concider kids judo, even beginners who are not adept in Judo. De-ashi-barai is normaly the first throw they learn as it is the most gentle for both uke and tori. The problem occurs when we practice yoko-ukemi (right-side example) where we stretch out our right leg, fall to our right side and uses the right hand to slap the mat, ofcourse with a didactic build up, but the end result is the basic yoko-ukemi.

    Now observe, from a kids perspective, who does not have the control or skill yet to go flying like Osawa-sensei and his uke. Tori now performs a de-ashi-barai on uke's right leg (the leg sweeps to the side as the will of tori), but uke is now standing on his/her left leg with a fall which initially looks like it is going to end up on the right side, but instead tori wheels uke's right hand so that uke falls to his left side instead. Kids may not have developed the nerve-connections in their brain yet to cope which this coordination challenge unless we practice for it. Basicly what I was saying in my first post is that the kids should train in Tandoku-renshu as being swept by de-ashi-barai on the right leg, while standing on the left leg, falling to the left and slapping with the left. See the difference from traditional yoko-ukemi?

    I want the same as all of you. To teach good ukemi. I would just love to hear how you approach this "challenge", and keep in mind the kids perspective.

    Edit: typo Smile

    jkw

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by jkw on Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:09 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    jkw wrote:
    Ryvai wrote:What do you guys think? Smile

    I think for right-handed sleeve-lapel gripping situation, the ukemi should look like this:

    I think i would like to see your 8 year old student judoka perform that kind of ukemi ^_^

    Sorry - let me clarify. I simply didn't understand your original post and wanted to use this clip as an example of how I think the ukemi should be taken (de ashi barai is demonstrated at about 0:20).

    If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that the fall be taken initially on the opposite side as you consider it easier to learn? I haven't seen this before. Does tori release the sleeve hand during the throw?

    I don't teach children, so won't comment further, but will reflect that when I have helped with children's classes a number of years ago I found that many seemed quite comfortable being thrown reasonably strongly with ashi-waza and were surprisingly intuitive taking falls.

    Did you develop this approach to address a specific problem with your students?

    DougNZ

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:42 am

    I have taught kids for years.

    Why would they not learn ukemi on both sides? Judo is not just about judo; what happens when they fall over in the playground or get knocked over playing other sports?

    Being able to roll and breakfall both sides is essential and not the least bit difficult to teach or learn, in my experience.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:29 pm

    DougNZ wrote:I have taught kids for years.

    Why would they not learn ukemi on both sides?  Judo is not just about judo; what happens when they fall over in the playground or get knocked over playing other sports?  

    Being able to roll and breakfall both sides is essential and not the least bit difficult to teach or learn, in my experience.

    Doug,

    I don't think that that is what he means. I understand what he means as instead of having 2 types of yoko-ukemi, making 4 types of yoko-ukemi, whereby the two additional yoko-ukemi consist of the same movement as the standard yoko-ukemi but while slapping the mat with the wrong arm. This is what he wants to teach to kids and feels necessary, as far as I understand him.


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    kastow

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by kastow on Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:18 pm

    As far as I understand Ryvai, he wants to point out, that in 'normal' Yoko-ukemi you are touching the ground with the right hand when the right foot is moving forward / sideways. But in De-ashi-harai your left hand is touching the ground while your right food is moved forward / sideways. And now he is looking for methods of teaching this 'unnormal' Yoko-ukemi to children.

    One possibility would be to gripp the partners belt with one hand and now practicing Yoko-ukemi for De-ashi-harai (falling without beeing thrown).

    Ryvai

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Ryvai on Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:39 pm

    kastow wrote:One possibility would be to gripp the partners belt with one hand and now practicing Yoko-ukemi for De-ashi-harai (falling without beeing thrown).

    That was actually a very good idea. I can see how that would work. Thanks Smile

    Cichorei Kano wrote:I don't think that that is what he means. I understand what he means as instead of having 2 types of yoko-ukemi, making 4 types of yoko-ukemi, whereby the two additional yoko-ukemi consist of the same movement as the standard yoko-ukemi but while slapping the mat with the wrong arm. This is what he wants to teach to kids and feels necessary, as far as I understand him.

    You put my 10 lines of text into 2,5, bravo! That is exactly what I mean. Think about this situation next time you demonstrate de-ashi-barai for kids, they might not understand, intuitively, to slap with the "wrong" hand while doing this throw in particular before becoming adept at it.

    Gosh, teachning judo to kids is a lot of fun. It really challenges your understanding. Kid are experts at asking the question: why?. If I cannot give a simple and understandable answer it means I probably dont understand it well enough Smile

    Co10Broek

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Co10Broek on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:52 pm

    Ryvai, I am still confused. Why would you need to reach across your body to slap during ukemi? Would it not be preferable to not slap in such a situation (at least from a Judo perspective)?
    Thank You,
    Co tenBroek

    Davaro

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Davaro on Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:42 am

    Co10Broek wrote:Ryvai, I am still confused. Why would you need to reach across your body to slap during ukemi? Would it not be preferable to not slap in such a situation (at least from a Judo perspective)?
    Thank You,
    Co tenBroek

    I believe you are simply not understanding what he means. He does NOT mean "reach across your body to slap"...

    What he means is, in the classical de-ashi, uki is projected, at first, in a motion making the novice THINK he is going to land on his right side, but tori, in using his arm action, "spins" uki to land on the left side. He is musing how to teach ukemi for this.

    To answer the OP, In my opinion, I believe that a lot of ukemi practice will prepare the kids enough.

    For kids, I tend to place a lot more emphasis on LEFT ukemi (slapping with the left hand, for lack of a better explanation) as most throws are taught right handed. If I throw with a right ogoshi, uki lands (slaps) on his left etc...

    The best way to teach landing from a de-ashi (again, just my opinion) is to rather let experienced tori's do the throwing to let uki down gently, explaining the difference.

    I dont think it is rocket-science at all and believe the natural progression of teaching ukemi and throws should mean this "problem" does not exist in the first place.


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    ccwscott

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by ccwscott on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:11 am

    So it's not about slapping with the opposite hand, it's about when you're twisting in the air, preparing to slap on the side you're going *towards* instead of on the side you are currently closest too.

    I don't know what people call it other places, but there's a basic drill of sitting in side fall position and flipping your legs over back and forth into left and right side fall position that would emulate that pretty well I think. We also do a drill where the kids run at you and you kinda clothesline them and they end up in the opposite side fall position, that might help a lot.

    Co10Broek

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Co10Broek on Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:35 am

    Davaro, if that is indeed the case then I fully agree with you having a more experienced tori execute the throw so that a child can learn the ukemi is a wonderful idea. I guess the statement of slapping with the opposite hand is where I got confused.
    Thanks again,
    Co tenBroek

    BillC

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by BillC on Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:15 am

    Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.


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    still learning

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by still learning on Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:33 am

    There will always be throws that are difficult to breakfall from, this in my view is not one of them, the problem is being over complicated by poor teaching.

    I always understood that you taught throws to beginners (and particularly children) such as de ashi barai, and certainly okuri ashi barai throwing on the sleeve side first. This enables uke to look after tori better. We have followed this practice for years without issue.

    We do of course teach such throws from both sides, whether left or right handed grips are used, once people are sufficiently proficient.


    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:40 am

    I have had some slight problems with the OPs situation...it took me a minute to figure out what he was trying to say, but I get it now.

    I do a couple of things, or sequences (didactic buildup, I like that).

    1: The first De Ash Barai I teach is with uke and tori moving sideways to tori right, right hand grip (or lh grip for lefties). Both with be (for rh grip) in migi shizentai. That's important, as in shizenhontai, De Ashi Bara is a lot harder to do...it is after all the "advanced" foot we sweep.

    2.) Solo practice is uke standing still, and taking a large cross step in front of his body with the right (lead) leg, then performing a yoko ukemi onto his left side. I'll leave the details for you guys to figure out, it's pretty simple.

    3.) Depending on how that goes, I will have the student move sideways and repeat.

    4.) Tori and uke then come to grips, and uke does step (1) with tori supporting appropriately (good drill for tori as well).

    5.) Next, tori can follow uke crossing leg with his, lightly touching (or not). Uke takes ukemi.

    6.) Then, tori will "sweep" more strongly with more contact on uke, uke is still more or less in control of his own body.

    7. Repeat, but with movement...note that at any point you may have to go back to an earlier step, or create a smaller increment of skill to help correct whatever issues arise. Most common is uke and tori have difficulty synchronizing their movement (especially in younger children).

    8.) Finally they can progress to move a couple of step and tori throws uke (maybe)...it's more of a cooperative drill that progresses to the point that uke is just uke, and does not take a fall on purpose. E.G., normal judo p ractice. that may take a while though.

    I use the above general outline for teaching ukemi in conjunction with nage waza, or something that resembles nage waza in any case. The blending of ukemi drills with moving then simple throws seems to work pretty well.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:49 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:I have taught kids for years.

    Why would they not learn ukemi on both sides?  Judo is not just about judo; what happens when they fall over in the playground or get knocked over playing other sports?  

    Being able to roll and breakfall both sides is essential and not the least bit difficult to teach or learn, in my experience.

    Doug,

    I don't think that that is what he means. I understand what he means as instead of having 2 types of yoko-ukemi, making 4 types of yoko-ukemi, whereby the two additional yoko-ukemi consist of the same movement as the standard yoko-ukemi but while slapping the mat with the wrong arm. This is what he wants to teach to kids and feels necessary, as far as I understand him.

    Ryvai, I apologise for my misunderstanding and, CK, I thank you for the correction.

    We use three 'starter' drills for kids:

    1. Right foot is raised (initially from a squat), fall to right and slap with right arm. This simulates ukemi from a rear throw such as (LH) ouchigari.

    2. Lying on back, roll side to side slapping with alternate arms. This simulates ukemi from a throw that causes rotation around a largely vertical axis, such as the described deashibarai.

    3. Forward roll into a side breakfall, leading with right arm and slapping with left arm. This simulates ukemi from a throw that causes rotation around a largely horizontal axis, such as ogoshi.

    I'm sure you all know and use these drills. I find them low impact for kids and easy for them to grasp.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Yoko-ukemi and De-ashi-barai

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:33 am

    BillC wrote:Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

    Always a valid option, I suppose.

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