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    No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

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    Ricebale

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    No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:17 pm

    Here is a video with no-gi and the following throws on asphalt, the Judo equivalent names are:

    Seoi Nage
    Kata Garuma
    Morote Gari
    Uki Waza



    Note that to throw no-gi contact and body position must be in alignment, same principle for all no-gi techniques as you don't have a jacket to tug on.

    I fall under this guy for the Sambo, he is very knowledgeable in the ex-soviet training methods.

    Enjoy
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:47 am

    Not to nitpick, but:

    that first throws are uchi makikomi not seoi nage.

    and the last set of throws doesn't look like uki waza to me. some of the reps looked like yoko otoshi, and one of them looked like yoko guruma.

    but it's kinda cool that they're training on asphalt. strange, given that there appears to be grass nearby, but still kinda cool.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:23 am

    Nitpick away, the "name that Judo throw" game is always fun.

    The purpose of the vid is to demonstrate control and how to land your partner correctly without harm, hence the asphalt.

    Most judo dudes can't do throws slowly and within control like this as they practice for the "impact" point necessary for ippon hence in no-gi the throw fails due to either body to body control problems or over rotation.

    Cheers
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:59 am

    I am looking forward to a poster more intelligent than myself letting me know that I am in fact wrong about the names of the throws.

    you do bring up interesting points though. we don't really train for doing them slowly, the point of a throw to a judoka is the impact. however I am of the opinion that the impact should also be a goal in competition venues that don't score ippon, for the sake of briefly stunning your opponent enough to get into a good position. I've never really had issues with over rotation, as I was always taught that newaza begins when uke's feet leave the ground, and part of newaza is getting to a strong position. if the ref happens to call ippon, then newaza ended early.

    frankly I have no desire to learn to do throws softly. that's a great way to mess up my back, or train bad habits (by that I mean habits that are bad for my primary focus: judo).

    is there any benefit to be gained in wrestling or BJJ from throwing your opponent gently? a related question, is there any penalty for throwing them too hard?


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    Ricebale

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:55 am

    I concur with the impact on throws, in matches I actively aim to do this too.

    In Olympic wrestling there is a "reckless" rules but you are only required to throw correctly, it is their fault if they cannot land. Olympic wrestling mats however are very soft. American folk style prohibits slams but I do not practice that.

    The control aspect is essential for combat outside of judo if the throw does not stun, a roll thru soft throw ends badly IMO.

    The other benefits are longevity of yourself and training partner, a greater ability to effect the exact landing of throws, when you increase force your landing is in fact harder due to better body position, it forces correct entry as you can't overplay lack of technique with speed & power etc

    This type of wrestling I am used to and in Judo practice I have seen it done but not so much in English speaking countries.

    If you are looking for ippon this may be another way to practice "back landing" but for present purposes in the no-gi world this is the way to takedown as you avoid guard.

    I'll try and find some Rousey technicals for no-gi to show what she does, these things are practiced at two speeds, this is light practice the other is hard.

    Cheers

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:26 pm

    Interesting (though I think I'd prefer the grass to be honest). My problem with many throws such as seio nage is getting the sleeve grip without the sleeve - you kind of need to grab the wrist which is not always easy.


    Last edited by Dew on Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:19 am

    Ricebale wrote:Most judo dudes can't do throws slowly and within control like this as they practice for the "impact" point necessary for ippon hence in no-gi the throw fails due to either body to body control problems or over rotation.

    Am I reading this correctly? Is there an implication here that in a gi judo practice, people are doing throws without body control and using rotation to complete throws. If so that is just poor nagekomi, which is reflected in their randori.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:50 am

    nomoremondays wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:Most judo dudes can't do throws slowly and within control like this as they practice for the "impact" point necessary for ippon hence in no-gi the throw fails due to either body to body control problems or over rotation.

    Am I reading this correctly? Is there an implication here that in a gi judo practice, people are doing throws without body control and using rotation to complete throws. If so that is just poor nagekomi, which is reflected in their randori.

    Sort of, I am speaking in relative terms. The jacket allows a greater rotational power advantage and temps a person to use this over body placement. If you take a person out of the Gi and ask them to perform the same throw in most cases they will be unable to do that same throw if they are want to rely on jacket grips for balance breaking, body placement and lift.

    The implication is not meant to be disparaging just an observation on a Gi to no-Gi transition.

    Cheers
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    Ricebale

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:55 am

    Dew wrote:Interesting (though I think I'd prefer the grass to be honest). My problem with many throws such as seio nage is getting the lapel grip without the lapel - you kind of need to grab the wrist which is not always easy.

    I'm also happy to continue my experiments on the sand for the time being Smile

    Seoi Nage is hard to get no-gi, usually you get it off an over hook rather than a wrist grab, the armpit traps the arm you want to throw if that makes sense. Needs the person to be overbalanced and distracted by a foot attack usually so they don't pull out on the arm when you rotate in.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:57 am



    The tricep control is the other way, harder to set up but gives more room to get under the arm. There is a series by Karo on how to partially disengage from clinches to allow room for Judo throws, some good stuff in those.

    Cheers
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:08 pm

    Ricebale wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:Most judo dudes can't do throws slowly and within control like this as they practice for the "impact" point necessary for ippon hence in no-gi the throw fails due to either body to body control problems or over rotation.

    Am I reading this correctly? Is there an implication here that in a gi judo practice, people are doing throws without body control and using rotation to complete throws. If so that is just poor nagekomi, which is reflected in their randori.

    Sort of, I am speaking in relative terms. The jacket allows a greater rotational power advantage and temps a person to use this over body placement. If you take a person out of the Gi and ask them to perform the same throw in most cases they will be unable to do that same throw if they are want to rely on jacket grips for balance breaking, body placement and lift.

    The implication is not meant to be disparaging just an observation on a Gi to no-Gi transition.

    Cheers

    Ok I see I think. If I may say, I think it was a bit poorly phrased initially because it gave me visions of judoka stumbling, muscling, bending over, losing control of uke mid air and rotating over to finish Very Happy! Yeah without a jacket you need to get tighter I agree with that.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:48 pm

    nomoremondays wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:Most judo dudes can't do throws slowly and within control like this as they practice for the "impact" point necessary for ippon hence in no-gi the throw fails due to either body to body control problems or over rotation.

    Am I reading this correctly? Is there an implication here that in a gi judo practice, people are doing throws without body control and using rotation to complete throws. If so that is just poor nagekomi, which is reflected in their randori.

    Sort of, I am speaking in relative terms. The jacket allows a greater rotational power advantage and temps a person to use this over body placement. If you take a person out of the Gi and ask them to perform the same throw in most cases they will be unable to do that same throw if they are want to rely on jacket grips for balance breaking, body placement and lift.

    The implication is not meant to be disparaging just an observation on a Gi to no-Gi transition.

    Cheers

    Ok I see I think. If I may say, I think it was a bit poorly phrased initially because it gave me visions of judoka stumbling, muscling, bending over, losing control of uke mid air and rotating over to finish Very Happy! Yeah without a jacket you need to get tighter I agree with that.

    Yes I used too many words to describe a simple thing I think Very Happy

    A good experiment is to video yourself in a gi doing your favourite throw 5 times on partner then both of you take your jackets off and you film yourself doing the same throw 5 times. Don't rehearse or research just simple do the same throw in this different setting. The review the video on a large tv and note how your technique is different in both versions.

    Do the same thing with Randori (enforce the upright stance though otherwise the throw mechanics are way too different)

    Throws such as Uchi-Mata are harder to translate that Koshi Garuma, even footsweeps are very different to apply in no-gi

    You (or anyone reading) may have already done this but if you haven't it is a good experiment, causes you to think about relative body placements in a deeper way IMO. Also helps keep the Judo fresh by introducing a new dimension.

    Cheers
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    Ricebale

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    Re: No Gi and how to Control the opponent and how to practice

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:46 pm



    This is a good example of body control in no-gi judo shiai

    Observe the guy in black how he sets his throws up and gets body contact, his opponents look like they are not familiar with no-gi engagements and are attempting to throw at long range. This is clearly a Judo exchange however rather than a devolution into wrestling by the stances and throws employed.

    Cheers

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