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    Don't Ever Give Up

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    judoScott

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    Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by judoScott on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:48 am

    This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by afulldeck on Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:23 am

    judoScott wrote:This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up
    Never give up. I have a specific drill aimed at this very issue. We break up in groups of 3 or 4. Put 3 minutes on the clock. One person is the stuckee and is in the center. The remaining people will work a specific osaekomi. Their job is to pin the stuckee for the entire time. The stuckee needs to break the osaekomi in some manner. As soon as it is broken a fresh tori jumps in to do the same osaekomi. If a minute passes, and osaekomi isn't broken another fresh tori jumps in as a replacement. The stuckee is on the bottom for the entire 3 minutes. Its a tough, tough drill but it works wonders....


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    “I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know.” ... Epicurus at Sen. Lucil, 29.10
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:19 am

    judoScott wrote:This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up

    So really what it is you are talking about is 'contests' and 'within the same weightclass'.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:25 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    judoScott wrote:This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up
    Never give up. I have a specific drill aimed at this very issue. We break up in groups of 3 or 4. Put 3 minutes on the clock. One person is the stuckee and is in the center. The remaining people will work a specific osaekomi. Their job is to pin the stuckee for the entire time. The stuckee needs to break the osaekomi in some manner. As soon as it is broken a fresh tori jumps in to do the same osaekomi. If a minute passes, and osaekomi isn't broken another fresh tori jumps in as a replacement. The stuckee is on the bottom for the entire 3 minutes. Its a tough, tough drill but it works wonders....
    I assure you  --and I am very serious--  that I have incurred many situations where tapping out was the sensible thing to do and you would have done the same thing or you might have found yourself for the rest of your life in a wheel chair or worse. Assuming that you are not an Olympic or world champion, am I to believe if I would position against, let say Rhadi, and if this would not be a friendly fight that you would not tap out ?  I agree that your drill is OK when working with average jûdôka in a local club, sure, but as a general rule when there are no limits on the choice of adversary, no way. I have previously recounted stories here of people who are so powerful that they can simply lift you off the ground and stand up with you while holding you in the air. There are physical limits. What you suggest can per definition only work if the forces mobilized do not exceed the physical integrity of the structures involved If they do, then something is going to break, period.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by afulldeck on Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:30 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    judoScott wrote:This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up
    Never give up. I have a specific drill aimed at this very issue. We break up in groups of 3 or 4. Put 3 minutes on the clock. One person is the stuckee and is in the center. The remaining people will work a specific osaekomi. Their job is to pin the stuckee for the entire time. The stuckee needs to break the osaekomi in some manner. As soon as it is broken a fresh tori jumps in to do the same osaekomi. If a minute passes, and osaekomi isn't broken another fresh tori jumps in as a replacement. The stuckee is on the bottom for the entire 3 minutes. Its a tough, tough drill but it works wonders....
    I assure you  --and I am very serious--  that I have incurred many situations where tapping out was the sensible thing to do and you would have done the same thing or you might have found yourself for the rest of your life in a wheel chair or worse. Assuming that you are not an Olympic or world champion, am I to believe if I would position against, let say Rhadi, and if this would not be a friendly fight that you would not tap out ?  I agree that your drill is OK when working with average jûdôka in a local club, sure, but as a general rule when there are no limits on the choice of adversary, no way. I have previously recounted stories here of people who are so powerful that they can simply lift you off the ground and stand up with you while holding you in the air. There are physical limits. What you suggest can per definition only work if the forces mobilized do not exceed the physical integrity of the structures involved If they do, then something is going to break, period.

    No of course not! The goal of the drill is, first and foremost, to figure out your limits under friendly but extremely challenging conditions. If you don't know where they are how would you know when to tap? The real problem is facing a Rhadi and not knowing where your limits are.


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    “I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know.” ... Epicurus at Sen. Lucil, 29.10

    judoScott

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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by judoScott on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:04 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    judoScott wrote:This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up
    So really what it is you are talking about is 'contests' and 'within the same weightclass'.
    Uhh, yes. The original post was about kids fighting in a tournament getting pinned and just laying there, but the idea of not giving up can be applied anywhere, judo or otherwise.

    judoScott

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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by judoScott on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:08 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    judoScott wrote:This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up
    Never give up. I have a specific drill aimed at this very issue. We break up in groups of 3 or 4. Put 3 minutes on the clock. One person is the stuckee and is in the center. The remaining people will work a specific osaekomi. Their job is to pin the stuckee for the entire time. The stuckee needs to break the osaekomi in some manner. As soon as it is broken a fresh tori jumps in to do the same osaekomi. If a minute passes, and osaekomi isn't broken another fresh tori jumps in as a replacement. The stuckee is on the bottom for the entire 3 minutes. Its a tough, tough drill but it works wonders....
    Good drill. We will be giving this one a try. We do a drill where you pin your partner and they have 30 seconds (I like the old rules) to get out and if they get out you have to do 10 push ups and if they do not get out they do the push ups.
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    Mongo

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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by Mongo on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:04 pm

    judoScott wrote:This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up
    I'm loving the blog, Scott. You're doing a great job with the whole site. Keep it up.

    judoScott

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    Join date : 2013-07-27
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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by judoScott on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:44 pm

    Thanks, coming from a writer that means a lot to me. Thanks so much!
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:58 pm

    judoScott wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    judoScott wrote:This is an article inspired by a comment on a post my wife posted on Facebook about people getting caught in a pin and either tapping out or just laying there not trying to get out.

    Don't Ever Give Up
    So really what it is you are talking about is 'contests' and 'within the same weightclass'.
    Uhh, yes.  The original post was about kids fighting in a tournament getting pinned and just laying there, but the idea of not giving up can be applied anywhere, judo or otherwise.  
    Thanks, Scott, I just wasn't (and am not sure at this point) if everybody is talking children. With children there is a particular pedagogical goal. But overall, the concept "not giving up" needs to be explained; it is too vague.

    There is, particularly in children, but also in adults the challenge of character building. In that sense "never give up" in the sense of give everything you have to the last second has its place. But I also think it is not universal. Character building also means to graciously accept defeat, and another important part of judo is strategy. It can't be a representation of sei-ryoku zen'yô to just bump your head against the wall when chances are zero and the "not giving up" has become a sickly obsession just to save face or not disappoint anyone and forget about what is best for your health or even short-term in the tournament. Not giving up in a pin may result in unnecessarily getting drained and no longer having the stamina to win the next fight, perhaps a repêchage.It happens from time to time that players lose out on the bronze medal from a player they have virtually always won, just because they got too drained in a previous heavy fight. I am not trying to be critical just to be critical. After all, I tell my students both in judo as well as other areas exactly the same, that is to never give up. But that is part of strategy, strategy that is sometimes very stupid, and I know what I am talking about. In my case the never give up was so present that I refused to tap out in armbars. No one has ever been able to submit me in a contest with armbar or choke. I was THAT obsessed with it. I would rather have someone break my arm than in front of sensei and others (especially lower belts) tap out. Never, not me !! But is that really the lesson judo is trying to bring to us ? In my first national final I refused to tap out. Everyone was shouting, supporting for the other one (of course), the ref had his arm half up his body ready to jump to the ippon, but it never came, because, not me, I would never tap out.It was heroic, probably. In the end I stood up, the person in full juji-gatame hanging off my body to everybody's surprise, leaving the ref not option but to call mate. Great, isn't it ? I did not give up. My elbow was ruined. Oh no, the opponent did not break it; after all if he did, that would have been ippon too. Instead, the forces generated were so great that through eccentric contract my tendons wore torn and the pain was huge, far worse than in case of a dislocated or broken arm. And of course, as we know, or at least as I know now, tendons have poor blood circulation thus recovery is takes a very long time. And yes of course, I still lost the fight, since I only had one arm left that was still functional to fight the country's best. What did I prove that day ? I proved to myself and everybody else that I didn't understand a damn thing of jûdô. My sensei shook his head. Both because he was very concerned about my health and because he had never seen something similar. If one really, really, really doesn't want to give up, I can assure you that you can get some very, very scary situations. My sensei was obviously very experienced and therefore thought ahead, things that at that age I could not see.

    I was not even a junior. Six month later I was in another important contest. Despite my young age and thus not even being a black belt I faced the sensei of the person I had previously won the districts championships from. The sensei caught me juji-gatame, this time on my other arm. What you think happened ? Exactly the same thing. Well, the juji-gatame was different. The first one I was lying o my back, but this one I was still on my knees. Once more I did not give up. And I am not kidding. Imagine, me, a kid, in competition against and adult male, sensei of a club and of different champions, and obviously a black belt catching me full in juji-gatame, and still refusing to give up, tells you something about the forces that must have been generated in my arm and on my elbow. Once again, I proved I did not understand anything of judo.

    It is fair to say that these injuries ruined a large part of my judo career with long revalidations. After all, above I mentioned just two of the stories. It happened another two times, though in slightly different circumstances, one during training (really a bad fall) and once in competion in what was more of an accident.

    Many years later I came out in an international tournament against a rather famous judoka who gained part of that fame thanks to his skills in juji-gatame. I knew he was physically stronger than me, and although my arm was functional against, it was still in the process of recovery. I was able to escape the judoka's dangers attacks (he preferred tai-otoshi) but at one point stumbled over his stretched out leg, and I was on one knee. Because he was very skilled, very experienced, had a lot of force, but also was still in a standing position, he was able to push me onto my back and I ended up in his juji-gatame. While my arm was maybe still in a 100° position, maybe not even, I think it was probably even less than 90° and far away from the position necessary to lock, I tapped out, the only time I have ever tapped out in contest in response to an armbar of choke. Everyone knew that it could not have been because of successful armbar, and my opponent looked surprised since he knew too. It was simple, I had felt and knew the skills of the judoka, and my estimation was spot on. There would have been zero chance of me withstanding him and his force, and it was impossible for me with my skill than and against him to get out of that. So I tapped. That day, I did something I had not done before: I showed I finally started to understand something about judo, not hindred by ego of not wanting to be humiliated or lose. My arm was not injured, and recovery simply continued. Moreover, ever since that time no one has ever caught me successfully in an armbar, not even in training, if I recall well.

    "Never give up" can be a dangerous lesson, a very anti-jûdô lesson, something if someone today would tell me that, I would promptly respond: "Be careful what you wish for, as you might regret telling me to never give up".

    As I said, I am not trying to be critical just to be critical, and I tell my students the same thing "never give up", but teaching has to evolve with the situation. Knowing my students' personality and the level they only are at, and the character development they still need, it is safe and responsible for me to say that. However, if I had among my students someone like I was at that time, it would not be safe to say that. It depends.

    Being able to give up and being able to tap out, no doubt is of a higher value than being able to not give up and not tap out. In fact Kanô Jigorô has written about that too. Context is important, and so is learning, and what is appropriate at one stage may not be at another. I feel quite happy in my judo today that I CAN give up and CAN tap out, though I haven't for many years, except for ... in kata.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    judoScott

    Posts : 20
    Join date : 2013-07-27
    Location : Englewood, Colorado, USA

    Re: Don't Ever Give Up

    Post by judoScott on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:12 pm

    I get your point and agree there are times when tapping or giving up is the right thing to do. Maybe I should have been more clear, but the primary idea of this article was about people getting caught in a pin and tapping out or just laying there without trying at all. I talked about not giving up being important in judo as well as other areas in life but in that context I was talking more about not giving up on what is important to you, but again, my primary thought was not trying to get out if a pin.

    Scott

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