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    The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

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    forgeron judo

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    The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by forgeron judo on Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:19 am

    After many years of observing how students perform in Randori and Shiai, I decided to review the application of the Ju principle and make an attempt at demonstrating how "suppleness" can defy the normal application of action-reaction or the third law of Sir Newton. Other learned Sensei may have different interpretations. Nevertheless, over time, through my emphasis upon the greater use of suppleness, the students are now anticipating the joy of better use of energy during both Randori and Shiai sessions.
    My review is part of an article I recently posted at WWW.Scribd.com with the Title: Judo Ron 74- Defying Newton's third law of action-reaction.
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    NBK

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by NBK on Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:30 am

    Did you post a specific link? All I got is scribd.com
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    forgeron judo

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by forgeron judo on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:06 am

    sorry for your difficulty. I had problems with loading the article onto this forum as my file was rejected several times so I posted it at WWW.Scribd.com and can be located by searching for:
    Evil or Very Mad Judo Ron 74- Defying Newton's third law of action-reaction.
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    NBK

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by NBK on Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:45 am

    In order to do that you have to have a Scribd account. You just cut your readership by 90% or so.

    hedgehogey

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by hedgehogey on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:04 am

    Yeah, I wanna read it too, but I don't feel like getting a scribd membership.
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    NBK

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by NBK on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:51 am

    Your paper starts:

    Judo Ron 74 - Defying Newton’s third law of action-reaction

    The first principle of judo being “Seiryoku Zenyo” or the intelligent use of energy was crafted by
    Jigoro Kano after considering an older expression used in Ju Jutsu which read “Ju Yoku go o
    Seisu and which can be translated to “softness controls hardness” i

    The founder of Judo explained his interpretation of the “JU” principle with the use of some
    units of power or energy that reads along the following lines: When facing an opponent
    possessing a power of 10 who is about to strike and if you only have a power value of 7 to face
    him, you are sure to be overcome if you try to resist on equal footing. However, if one is able to
    adjust, adapt or pull back, he will be able to momentarily deflect the impact produced in the
    direction of the attack. Soon thereafter, if one combines the incoming force with his own, then,
    it will be possible to overcome the attack, make the aggressor lose his balance and defeat him
    with the application of a selected technique. This is somewhat a simple statement, yet, it
    encloses many physical factors worth studying.

    .........
    I'll let someone else tackle that.  

    Later in the paper there is a graphic as below and the explanation below that:

    能柔制剛
    Technique overcomes power

    。。。。。
    I have no idea what sources you found, but the above four character saying is out of sequence, and the translation / explanation is not correct.  While the best translation is always subject to discussion because of the complex, multiple meanings of Chinese characters, I hold it should read:

    柔能制剛
    The quality of flexibility/softness overcomes stiffness/hardness

    but while there are many more, the terms 'technique' and 'power' do not appear.  In Japanese, it is usually rendered 柔よく剛を制す.

    My avatar is actually an extract from an ancient text of the relative portion, the Upper or High Strategy (上略) of the Three Strategies of Huang Shi Gong's Three Strategies (Master Yellow Stone's Three Strategies - simplified and traditional Chinese: 黄石公三略 pinyin: Huáng Shígōng Sān Lüè), considered one of the oldest recorded tactical theory guides.  

    There was a lot of information about this in the old forum; it might be useful to track it down if possible.

    安田鑓

    judoScott

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by judoScott on Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:16 pm

    I haven't read it yet but you could post it at all about judo for free if you like. It is my blog but I have a "writers" section where others can post articles.

    Just an option. I'll read your article now.
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    forgeron judo

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by forgeron judo on Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:29 pm

    Thank you for the clarification of the Chinese characters. Those characters were present in an old instructional text in a former Canadian dojo in the late 50, I can not recall the provenance of the sources for a proper quote but the explanations given to me at the time was that they summarized the spirit of judo and ju jitsu as thought at that dojo. Recently, when I resurrected them, I did an ad hoc translation to try to capture the essence of the softness versus the hardness.
    Thank you again for your expertise, I will make a correction for future references.sunny 
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    NBK

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by NBK on Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:23 am

    You're welcome.

    I don't want to seem to be nitpicking your paper, but regarding your introductory statement, it seems there is a misunderstanding, and it skews the introduction for me.  

    While Kano wrote of the principal of 'ju', flexibility, when he wrote of comparative strength in the example that you cite, he was writing about the importance of 'kuzushi'.

    The specific context was an example he honed over many years.  He spoke of two judoka, one with a strength of 10, the other with 7.  All other things being equal, the stronger wins, but if the weaker applies kuzushi while staying in balance himself, if he off-balances his opponent, he can reduce the relative power available to the stronger by a great amount, say to 4, while maintaining his own strength at 7, thus having much greater relative power available to make the throw (kake).

    Tomiki Kenji sensei wrote of it thusly:  http://judoinfo.com/tomiki.htm (emphasis added)

    'Kuzushi

    In the preceding section on the principle of natural posture, explanation was given regarding how to make oneself invulnerable to all possible attacks and how victory is gained. In this section on the principle of kuzushi (breaking the posture) it will he shown how it is that one is defeated. For in order to make clear the theory of victory one must at the same time know the theory of defeat. The Kodokan Judo found that the principle of the techniques (either with naked fists, or using a weapon like the sword, spear, club, etc.) of the old-school jujutsu consists in breaking the condition of the body which has lost equilibrium. It is called kuzure-no-jotai (state of broken balance). Sometimes the opponent himself loses the balance, and at other times you positively destroy the opponent's balance, leading him to a vulnerable posture. In Judo each technique is analyzed into tsukuri (preparatory action) and kake (attack). Preparatory action is further divided into aite-no-tsukuri (preparing of the opponent) and jibun-no-tsukuri (preparing of self). ___Preparing of the opponent consists in destroying the opponent's balance before performing a technique and putting him in a posture where it will be easy to apply it. At the same instant the contestant himself must be in a posture and position in which it is easy to apply a technique.___ This is the preparing of self.

    The nicety of judo techniques lies not in the action of performing techniques, but rather in the skill with which the preparing is done as a preliminary. It was the clear-sighted and original idea of the founder of the Kodokan Judo that analyzed the technique which is applied in an instant, and attached importance to the study and practice of preparatory action. In the case of the preparing of the opponent, the theory and practice of the principle of breaking the balance must be studied, while as regards preparing of self it is necessary to study the natural posture and also the theory and practice of ma-ai (space condition).
    ...'
    ********

    'Ju no kata' was designed by Kano shihan as a combatives exercise to explore the use of 'ju' by tori to avoid uke's attacks, maintain his own balance (in shizentai), and take uke's balance (the first part of Tomiki sensei's discussion at the link above in which he cites the prime importance of shizentai, keeping one's self in balance to maintain your own power), thus placing uke into kuzure-no-jotai, the condition of being off-balance.  

    But the original example Kano shihan referred to was the application of the principle of 'kuzushi' in a specific instance preparatory to a throw, thus part of the continuum of kuzushi-tsukuri-kake, not necessarily limited to a response to an attack.    

    Or so it seems to me.

    NBK
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    forgeron judo

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by forgeron judo on Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:55 am

    The concept of Kuzushi and the application of same is paramount in Judo as you so eloquently described. I concur with your interpretation .
    In my essay, I wanted to indicate that the judoka can improve upon his or her ability to apply it at the right time and after seizing and evaluating the opponent's actions before he or she are too late to properly manage or dispose of the impact.
    The desired harmonious application of Kuzushi can be difficult to obtain if brute force or antagonistic posturing prevail. In my view, Kuzushi is part of the energy management by both players.
    My recommended approach has always been to be mentally alert and physically relaxed when engaging an opponent. We can either take the offensive at the right opportunity and by using the minimum energy seek the maximize our superiority or go with the flow and present some form of emptiness to accommodate the incoming energy and provide sufficient room to managed it.
    The steps of Kuzushi-Tsukuri and Kake are to be respected in either situations.
    I thank you for your good observation and comments.
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    Heisenberg

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    Re: The application of the Ju principle in Randori and Shiai

    Post by Heisenberg on Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:44 am

    FYI, you do not need a Scribd account to read the essay. Here is a direct link:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/159806310/Judo-Ron-74-Defying-Newton-s-Third-Law


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