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    Dojo Promotions Comment

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    ccwscott

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by ccwscott on Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:32 am

    Judoman wrote:
    ccwscott wrote:If you go to an unaccredited university, it doesn't matter how much you learned, you will not be recognized as having a degree.
    This is actually an inaccurate analogy. It would be like having only “three” accredited colleges in a country. That makes no sense. How did they get accredited? Who authorized only these three to issue “degrees”? To be sensible, there would have to be a mechanism in place to allow other “colleges” to be able to follow an objective series of steps to earn “accreditation.” As far as I can tell, the national orgs would fight to the end to prevent such a system from being put into place.
    No, it would be more like having 3 accreditation groups in the country, with hundreds of accredited schools. If you decided not to get accreditation through any of the 3 possible groups, well, that was probably not a great decision, and again, I can't see how you can possibly be surprised when the larger community doesn't recognize you, when you don't support and actively avoid the quality control systems of the larger community.

    ccwscott

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by ccwscott on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:34 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Why arbitrarily "1st kyû" ?  This assumes that the skill and experience of the person is just somewhere between 1st kyû and shodan. That is not automatically so. The person's skill and experience level could in effect far exceed that of the 'instructor'. In fact, the person could well be, let's say, Neil Adams. It would be a little awkward to say: "well, Neil, I guess you probably might be a black belt, here why don't you wear a brown belt for now ?". My own sensei in terms of jûdô experience was just behind Keiko Fukuda. Had 72 years of jûdô experience, and was a nidan, so I guess you could say he might have the time in grade to be considered 1st kyû or maybe "in the wisdom of the federation" even a shodan ..
    I don't know how the USJF handles people from other countries, or people with multiple wins on the world circuit who have somehow managed to avoid national membership. I think the point in question is something a little less grandiose. It's been my impression that no one has any problems letting a skilled, experienced Judoka start with some color on their belt, even if their membership history is wonky. I don't know how they'd handle someone with 72 years of judo experience, that's a little above my paygrade.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:11 am

    NavyRN wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:Running a class safely and effectively should play no part in it.  Dan rank is about personal skill/knowledge and nothing to do with teaching.....
    WHAT?  I seriously hope that you are trolling.
    Absolutely not. Teaching proficiency is covered by other schemes and mechanisms in most places. A highly skilled "contest judoist" of say 4 or 5 dan rank may not have the first idea or how to be an effective teacher. That is a real problem, the naive assumption that the higher the dan rank, the better the teacher.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:45 am

    ccwscott wrote:
    I don't know how the USJF handles people from other countries, or people with multiple wins on the world circuit who have somehow managed to avoid national membership.  I think the point in question is something a little less grandiose.  It's been my impression that no one has any problems letting a skilled, experienced Judoka start with some color on their belt, even if their membership history is wonky.  I don't know how they'd handle someone with 72 years of judo experience, that's a little above my paygrade.
    It is not possible to have "multiple wins on the world circuit" and at the same time  "have somewhow avoided national membership". That is not what I am saying. My reference is simply to "of a different federation system". One cannot become a continental or world medallist or participant in the IJF circuit without membership in an IJF-recognized national federation. But ... one sure can become a world/continental champion in the World Judo Federation by being member of a non-IJF national federation, but a WJF-recognized national federation. Just like one can win titles in the IBF system by being a member of an IBF-recognized national federation. So, these too are "national federations", but obviously different national federations. We should refrain from ridiculing or looking down just because someone is part of a different system. I think that is what the original poster is saying. It may very we be that they don't have someone who can beat Teddy Riner, but that does not imply that they do not have dedicated judoka who too commit to applying Kanô's principles. These days, most clubs are a member of some federation, and that federation is a member of some international federation. That brings us back to square 1, namely having a background in a different federation system This is not the same as "managed to avoid national membership".

    But to get back to the the original question, I think that the original poster was mostly concerned about joining the USJA although that is not entirely clear. He only is referring to a statement from USJA he read. In any case the way the three main US organizations for judo deal with the average case is not identical. USJA officially considers three different things: promotion, recognition, validation. Validation does not require the rank to be from an IJF-recognized organization or one of the two other US organizations.

    USJF for lower ranks traditionally assigned authority to the Yûdânshakai with the level of authority being different depending on how long they have been a member, and the highest authority assigned to the original Yûdanshakai.

    With regard to USJF, at the national level, their (theoretical) view is dealt with by item #4, Section VI of the Handbook, page 17:

    "Dan rank awarded by other Judo organizations will be acknowledged by USJF; however, USJF ratification or certification of any rank will require at least three years of continuous USJF membership (two years in the case of promotion to Shodan) immediately preceding application and following proof that all USJF requirements for such rank have been satisfied. The required period of continuous USJFmembership shall be counted from the current year membership as well as membership paid (as explained below) for the immediate preceding year in the case of Shodan rank and three preceding years in the case of rank above Shodan. Whenever a gap exists in the required period of continuous USJF membership, a makeup fee will be charged for each required period of continuous USJF membership, a makeup fee will be charged for each required year of continuous registration in an amount equal to that portion of the current annual membership fee payable to USJF exclusive of any portion of the membership fee attributable to insurance or annual registration fee payable to the yudanshakai."  (...)

    USJF traditionally accepts ranks from the two other main judo organizations in the US and from IJF organizations. Where it gets obscure is if it is different, even though the above regulation only uses the term "Judo organizations" without specifying that these need to be IJF organizations.

    With regard to USA Judo, they recognize ranks awarded by other IJF organizations; they have also recognized ranks awarded by the Kodokan, and sometimes of other organizations.

    I do hope that the original poster gets his stuff sorted out. One thing that might help is that after he selects what organization he wants to become a member of, that he directly seeks membership of a club of which the sensei is sufficiently senior and actively involved in such matters.

    Good luck !


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    NavyRN

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by NavyRN on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:00 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    NavyRN wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:Running a class safely and effectively should play no part in it.  Dan rank is about personal skill/knowledge and nothing to do with teaching.....
    WHAT?  I seriously hope that you are trolling.
    Absolutely not.  Teaching proficiency is covered by other schemes and mechanisms in most places.  A highly skilled "contest judoist" of say 4 or 5 dan rank may not have the first idea or how to be an effective teacher.  That is a real problem, the naive assumption that the higher the dan rank, the better the teacher.
     
     
    I couldn't disagree more.  That goes completely against the spirit of Judo.  So much for Mutual Benefit and Welfare.  A fourth or fifth dan better have an idea of how to be an effective teacher.  That's not a naive assumption, that's a very real expectation.  Judo is so much more than just competition.  Many of us have clearly forgotten about that.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:43 am

    I have not forgotten that judo is a pedagogy at all, but you are confusing two different things. Would you expect a Nobel Laureate in physics to be a great professor - it is the same in judo?

    Why are there coaching awards then if it is all about dan rank? Look at the promotion requirements - even at the Kodokan and tell me where teaching fits in?

    The DNBK had titles - renshi, kyoshi and hanshi - the Kodokan never did.

    Contribution to judo plays a part in awarding kodansha ranks, but ranks are personal and in the main about knowledge and skill.


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    Judoturtle

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Judoturtle on Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:11 pm

    Judo ranks are the root of all evil
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    BillC

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by BillC on Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:26 pm

    Judoturtle wrote:Judo ranks are the root of all evil
    1 Timothy 6:10 ... often misquoted ...

    "For the love of judo rank is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

    Heck of an uchimata man, that Timothy.


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    Judoturtle

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Judoturtle on Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:29 pm

    I was paraphrasing.
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:22 pm

    Stevo, it should be "The love of Judo ranks is the root of all evil" Twisted Evil 
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    Judoturtle

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Judoturtle on Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:40 pm

    Agreed
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    BillC

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by BillC on Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:17 am

    Judoturtle wrote:Agreed
    Ehem.  You agree with him a day late when he writes exactly the same thing but ignore my clever and witty response.  You must be sucking up to get promoted to a higher rank.

    :Wink: :Wink: :Wink:

    (your sarcastic humor detector is working today, right?)


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    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    Hanon

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Hanon on Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:26 am

    NavyRN wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:Running a class safely and effectively should play no part in it.  Dan rank is about personal skill/knowledge and nothing to do with teaching.....
    WHAT?  I seriously hope that you are trolling.
    Hiya,

    Long gone, thank goodness, are the days when a dan rank was seen as a teacher of judo. The dan system is an indication of personal achievement that does not correlate with teaching.
    Because a person holds a dan rank does not mean that individual has a clue how to pass on a skill set to others. What the individual has proved is his own ability to perform judo to a given and specific level.

    Much more than this though is the word 'vocation'. I have never accepted we can all teach. To me certain professions are a vocation. Teaching is one of them. Teaching is a gift one has or one has not. I must quickly add to that that even with the vocation and desire to teach a would be teacher will still need professional teaching before he can best make use of his natural talents, that is why ALL teachers in the developed Western world have to hold a degree in teaching regardless of what other personal qualifications they hold.

    If teachers in judo from the past where educated in Physical education and qualified I would NOT be in the physical state I am in today! As a very young child some of the exercises we where taught would today land a teacher in court being charged with negligence.

    Ones dan rank is important as far as it goes in the correct context. Now if you ask should a would be teacher of judo need to hold at least sho dan before they took a qualification, I would suggest yes given the very low standards of some dan ranks today. Remember a dan rank today is a given. many years ago this was not the case and people remained at blue or brown for the rest of their judo lives. We all have judo knowledge and practice 'ceilings'. I reached mine some years ago and will not grade again.

    if you do a tad research you will find in most activities, be they academic or otherwise, Olympians have rarely been produced by fellow Olympians?
    How many Nobel recipients have been taught by Nobel recipients? It just doesn't correlate. Kudo Kuzuzo sensei also Okano sensei spring to mind. Both superb practitioners also superb teachers BUT how many champions have they produced from start? BTW I have no idea of the answer either?

    If I may ask you one personal question? Do you identify yourself as qualified to teach judo as you hold a black belt? Think about this.

    Very best wishes,

    Mike


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    Judoturtle

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by Judoturtle on Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:45 am

    BillC wrote:
    Judoturtle wrote:Agreed
    Ehem.  You agree with him a day late when he writes exactly the same thing but ignore my clever and witty response.  You must be sucking up to get promoted to a higher rank.

    :Wink: :Wink: :Wink:

    (your sarcastic humor detector is working today, right?)
    Your responses are too long to wade through Bill. Steve and I need shorter, more succinct posts.

    Shocked 

    Wink 
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    BillC

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    Re: Dojo Promotions Comment

    Post by BillC on Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:07 am

    Judoturtle wrote:Your responses are too long to wade through Bill. Steve and I need shorter, more succinct posts.
    I see.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

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