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    Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

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    Judoman

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    Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by Judoman on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:09 am

    Hypothetically, if a wrestler or BJJ black belt (or anyone for that matter) showed up for a USJF tournament, could they sign up that day for membership with the USJF and compete at the black belt level if they wanted to?

    Someone recently said that this was possible. I don’t think it is possible.

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:24 am

    Judoman wrote:Hypothetically, if a wrestler or BJJ black belt (or anyone for that matter) showed up for a USJF tournament, could they sign up that day for membership with the USJF and compete at the black belt level if they wanted to?

    Someone recently said that this was possible. I don’t think it is possible.


    See the other posts.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total


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    BillC

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    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by BillC on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:28 am

    Judoman wrote:Hypothetically, if a wrestler or BJJ black belt (or anyone for that matter) showed up for a USJF tournament, could they sign up that day for membership with the USJF and compete at the black belt level if they wanted to?

    Someone recently said that this was possible. I don’t think it is possible.

    Yes, with an instructor's signature they most certainly can.

    Most tournament applications will include the following section:

    Certificate Regarding Non-Black Belt Contestants

    I ________________________________________________ a Judo instructor, who has been
    (print name of Instructor) awarded the Judo rank of Shodan or higher, under the auspices of the USJI, USJF or USJA, hereby certify that, _______________________________________ although not having been awarded the Judo rank of Shodan or higher, is of sufficient aptitude and skill in Judo to compete in this competition.

    Judo Instructor (print) ____________________Signature of Instructor ______________________Date ________

    Rank ____________________Organization rank obtained through _____________________________________


    Ah yes ... there is that pesky and unfair "big three" rank thing again Wink


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

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    Guest

    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by Guest on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:30 am

    Judoman wrote:Hypothetically, if a wrestler or BJJ black belt (or anyone for that matter) showed up for a USJF tournament, could they sign up that day for membership with the USJF and compete at the black belt level if they wanted to?

    Someone recently said that this was possible. I don’t think it is possible.

    Every tournament I have ever been a part of did not have novice divisions so in my experience there was never a "black belt level" division. So a wrestler entering a Judo tournament would compete with anyone that was in his age/weight division regardless of Judo rank. Admittedly, I have never competed at a USJF sanctioned event so perhaps it's different.
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:39 am

    BillC wrote:
    Judoman wrote:Hypothetically, if a wrestler or BJJ black belt (or anyone for that matter) showed up for a USJF tournament, could they sign up that day for membership with the USJF and compete at the black belt level if they wanted to?

    Someone recently said that this was possible. I don’t think it is possible.

    Yes, with an instructor's signature they most certainly can.

    Most tournament applications will include the following section:

    Certificate Regarding Non-Black Belt Contestants

    I   ________________________________________________ a Judo instructor, who has been
                  (print name of Instructor) awarded the Judo rank of Shodan or higher, under the auspices of the USJI, USJF or USJA, hereby certify that, _______________________________________ although not having been awarded the Judo rank of Shodan or higher, is of sufficient aptitude and skill in Judo to compete in this competition.

    Judo Instructor (print) ____________________Signature of Instructor ______________________Date ________

    Rank ____________________Organization rank obtained through _____________________________________


    Ah yes ... there is that pesky and unfair "big three" rank thing again Wink
    Bill are there any insurance implications with Non-Black Belt Contestants in the US?


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    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by Guest on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:49 am

    My earlier post was in no way an attempt to discredit BillC.
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    BillC

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    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by BillC on Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:42 am

    afulldeck wrote:Bill are there any insurance implications with Non-Black Belt Contestants in the US?
    As I understand it ... and double checking in these things with the sanctioning body is a good idea ... because things change all the time ... a sanction is a sanction ... meaning all are qualified card holders ... so therefore all are insured.  The checking is before the fact with the national organization ... the USJF checks the flyer, the rules, the entry form, the divisions, the waiver to be signed and expects that all will be adhered to.  I am not sure if the black belt waiver is an insurance thing or just a tradition.  In any case the USJF at least insists on it.

    Dave R. wrote:My earlier post was in no way an attempt to discredit BillC.  
    Why not?  Bring it!  I love public humiliation, caning, Mongolian training methods, tight SAMBO pants, and fashionable judo shoes.

    Yes, there is an issue of definitions maybe ... if a division is listed as "black belts only" then that is clearly what the tournament director intends.  But I can't recall seeing that happen except in "silver league" events.  The assumption for adults in local competitions ... so-called senior divisions ... in the US is the shodan level or a waiver from a dan grade instructor.  

    How strictly this is enforced I do not know.  My guess is that if someone wrote "Mickey Mouse, 15th dan" on the application and signed it with a tiny paw print no one would notice. It's a weak point perhaps.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    hedgehogey

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    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by hedgehogey on Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:19 pm

    Already happened once:
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    judoratt

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    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by judoratt on Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:10 am

    BillC wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:Bill are there any insurance implications with Non-Black Belt Contestants in the US?
    As I understand it ... and double checking in these things with the sanctioning body is a good idea ... because things change all the time ... a sanction is a sanction ... meaning all are qualified card holders ... so therefore all are insured.  The checking is before the fact with the national organization ... the USJF checks the flyer, the rules, the entry form, the divisions, the waiver to be signed and expects that all will be adhered to.  I am not sure if the black belt waiver is an insurance thing or just a tradition.  In any case the USJF at least insists on it.

    Dave R. wrote:My earlier post was in no way an attempt to discredit BillC.  
    Why not?  Bring it!  I love public humiliation, caning, Mongolian training methods, tight SAMBO pants, and fashionable judo shoes.

    Yes, there is an issue of definitions maybe ... if a division is listed as "black belts only" then that is clearly what the tournament director intends.  But I can't recall seeing that happen except in "silver league" events.  The assumption for adults in local competitions ... so-called senior divisions ... in the US is the shodan level or a waiver from a dan grade instructor.  

    How strictly this is enforced I do not know.  My guess is that if someone wrote "Mickey Mouse, 15th dan" on the
    application and signed it with a tiny paw print no one would notice.  It's a weak point perhaps.
    The non black belt waiver is a great control mechanism. A registered black belt needs to sign off on all players not having certified belt rank. A non judoka or can compete as long as a yudanshsa signs off on it. This is strictly inforced in the NW US.
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    BillC

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    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by BillC on Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:34 am

    judoratt wrote:
    The  non black belt waiver is a great control mechanism. A registered black belt needs to sign off on all players not having certified belt rank. A non judoka or can compete as long as a yudanshsa signs off on it. This is strictly inforced in the NW US.
    Hello big guy, good to see you posting.

    I think it's a reasonable precaution, but I wonder how strictly enforced it can be. What I mean is that even if the registration table checks the rank of the entrant, then checks the non-black-belt waiver to make sure it is filled out ... and plenty of experience in the pooling room tells me that this is uneven at best ... even if these things are checked who is checking the black belt doing the signing? If I signed for one of my folks and sent him up to participate in one of your local events, how would they know who the heck I am?

    Lack of a registry is a weak point if we really cared to check.

    But in a sense, who cares? The waiver is a warning to the participant, not to his opponents.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    tafftaz

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    Location : Wales, UK

    Re: Non Judoka Competing at the Black Belt Level

    Post by tafftaz on Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:44 am

    hedgehogey wrote:Already happened once:
    I know of a number of times this has happened. Even at higher level comps.

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