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    Why Stacking needs to be aggressively defended against.

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    afulldeck

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    Why Stacking needs to be aggressively defended against.

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:56 pm

    This is really sad for a 15 year old participating in an adult category. No 15 year old should participate with an adult ever. The strength differential is just too great and in this case has life implications. As you can see the result was instant. Will he be a quadriplegic for the rest of his life?

    http://www.mmamania.com/2013/8/21/4646258/video-15-year-old-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-competitor-suffers-broken-neck


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Why Stacking needs to be aggressively defended against.

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:29 pm

    afulldeck wrote:This is really sad for a 15 year old participating in an adult category. No 15 year old should participate with an adult ever. The strength differential is just too great and in this case has life implications. As you can see the result was instant. Will he be a quadriplegic for the rest of his life?

    http://www.mmamania.com/2013/8/21/4646258/video-15-year-old-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-competitor-suffers-broken-neck
    Thanks for pointing out this tragedy. It's an educational video in particular for coaches and referees.

    However, I think that your second sentence is premature and somewhat emotional. You cannot come to that conclusion simply on this video or other anecdotal evidence. Rather than age difference it is a matter of being ready or not. You will see that a large proportion of successful martial artists were somewhat precocious. I was never part of a children's division when I took up jûdô and started directly with the adults. That is to say, it is true that in my second club they tried to put me into a children's division, which was a big mistake and quickly halved the group if I recall.

    How do you think one could get a jûdô black belt (or similar qualification in another martial art) at age 16 in a serious federation where you actually have to win 10 shiai points rather than some places where a local sensei can make members a black belt by simply filling in a form. I was 1.78m (5'10") when I was 12 years old, and I read that David Douillet was 1.80m (5'11") when he was 11 years old. Whilst I don't have any statistics to prove it, I certainly know that most of my fellow countrymen who became international elite judoka were fighting in the seniors division while they were juniors. There's a reason they became international elite fighters. In fact, one could argue that they were as dangerous for other people of the same age, as adults might be for children. One sees huge differences in motor skills, physical development of people who are of similar age but in different stages of puberty. It is not the age, but the difference in skills and experience that matter.

    I refereed a certain youth tournment somewhere between 1989-1991 where 34 people were transported by ambulance to hospital due do elbow and shoulder dislocations and other injuries. There was a girl there who later would become famous and who would become a two-time women's world champion, a 7-fold European champion and two-time Olympic medal winner, who logically was already a black belt then; there was another girl who was already a black belt too. I can't go as far as saying that the two were responsible for half of the injuries, but you get the idea. It was enough that they threw their opponent with something like uchi-mata and their opponent would be done not being used to that kind of explosive force and speed. T

    My view on this is that it isn't judo which is dangerous, but that it is a simple responsibility of the coach. A coach should not be sending youngsters to competition if they are not ready for it, and the American way of sending white belts to competition or starting to talk competition from the moment people take up judo is not my way. I was educated in a relatively traditional judo environment where judo competition was only for the very best or for those who would go on to become black belts. The majority never did competition and never became blackbelts. Sure, many more become black belts today and many more participate in competition, but skill level has become down and many black belts in jûdô today are barely the level of a blue belt at the time Because many more participate in competition, overall competitive level is far down too. At the time if you were 15 year old, the only way you could become a black belt was by defeating a line up of adults, which is what I did. Today though, more than half of those will be youngsters too so you can become a black belt by having to fight only people your age.


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    Glorfindel

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    Re: Why Stacking needs to be aggressively defended against.

    Post by Glorfindel on Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:14 am

    A double under hook pass goes bad... It's sad, he kind of 'over rotate' on his neck.

    He was defending himself pretty well before the accident.

    Grappling can be dangerous.
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Why Stacking needs to be aggressively defended against.

    Post by afulldeck on Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:10 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:This is really sad for a 15 year old participating in an adult category. No 15 year old should participate with an adult ever. The strength differential is just too great and in this case has life implications. As you can see the result was instant. Will he be a quadriplegic for the rest of his life?

    http://www.mmamania.com/2013/8/21/4646258/video-15-year-old-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-competitor-suffers-broken-neck
    Thanks for pointing out this tragedy. It's an educational video in particular for coaches and referees.
    Your welcome.

    Cichorei Kano wrote: One sees huge differences in motor skills, physical development of people who are of similar age but in different stages of puberty. It is not the age, but the difference in skills and experience that matter.
    Maybe we are on the same page. However, I would add some clarifications. True there could be a huge difference in motor skills and that is a key consideration, but its not the only one. Many kids in the age category of 10-20 have a huge differences in reaching puberty/maturity. Even still they will have a number of years before their body, specifically joints are fully mature and can take the type of full contact that can happen in judo. You pointed out that you where "...1.78m (5'10") when I was 12 years old.." and I'm assuming that your roughly the same height and weight today? As a counter perspective I entered the military at the age of 17 at 1.67cm and only 56kg. And if my family is a representative of probable outcomes in growth, anyone who saw the rest of my family would have realized that I had not physically matured at that time. Indeed that turn out to be true. (I couldn't even grow facial hair.) From the age of 17-20 I grew another 16cm and added 40kg. Unfortunately I didn't reach physical maturity until after some pretty serious injuries to my shoulder during my first year in the military specially because I wasn't fully grown. Now I would not want a 17 year old who has not fully matured, no matter how skilled, taking on a fully grown adult (in competition). Randori or training is a whole different matter, that can be pursued depending on the psychological maturity of the junior and skill capabilities.  

    Cichorei Kano wrote: My view on this is that it isn't judo which is dangerous, but that it is a simple responsibility of the coach. A coach should not be sending youngsters to competition if they are not ready for it, and the American way of sending white belts to competition or starting to talk competition from the moment people take up judo is not my way.
    Absolutely agree that its the coaches responsibility to decide if the time is right for competition for any individual. That said, I echo your comment, and think we are doing our kids an injustice by sending them into competition before they have had a chance to mature.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Why Stacking needs to be aggressively defended against.

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:33 am

    afulldeck wrote:You pointed out that you where "...1.78m (5'10") when I was 12 years old.." and I'm assuming that your roughly the same height and weight today?
    Yes, I grew only an inch since I was 12 years old. So, my final height (not taking into account what I will be losing over the next years) was 6'0'', which I had achieved by age 14 yr. Now my weight, that's whole other pair of gloves, though I'd like to think that that is still the same too !!  Don't think that that was all fun though. I was hitting on 18-20-year old girls but at age 12-13 one isn't terribly suave and successful at those things !


    afulldeck wrote:Now I would not want a 17 year old who has not fully matured, no matter how skilled, taking on a fully grown adult (in competition). Randori or training is a whole different matter, that can be pursued depending on the psychological maturity of the junior and skill capabilities.  
    I agree with you there. Only problem is that this is difficult to pour into an eligibility condition for tournaments. Age is simply and established by ID, but skeletal maturity across ages is almost impossible to enforce and one would have to rely on the judgment of the coach; that isn't realistic either given the great variation in coach education.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:33 am; edited 1 time in total


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    afulldeck

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    Re: Why Stacking needs to be aggressively defended against.

    Post by afulldeck on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:18 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote: Don't think that that was all fun though. I was hitting on 18-20-year old girls but at age 12-13 one's terribly suave and successful at those things !
    Zeus! 8 years of additional practice! There must not have been a girl who could say no to your silver covered tongue by 20.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Why Stacking needs to be aggressively defended against.

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:41 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote: Don't think that that was all fun though. I was hitting on 18-20-year old girls but at age 12-13 one's terribly suave and successful at those things !
    Zeus! 8 years of additional practice! There must not have been a girl who could say no to your silver covered tongue by 20.
    Sorry, there was a typo in my post. It should have read "isn't terribly suave and successful". It wasn't at all as glamorous as you seem to think. In fact, I found much of it rather disappointing. Think of it as in:



    Just replace 'girl' by 'boy' in the song.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

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