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    2013 Worlds, 63k final

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    davidn

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    2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by davidn on Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:00 am

    In the 63k final, the winner (Gerbi of Israel) applies a choke with bottom of the jacket.  Shouldn't that be a shido according to the rules (not allowed to choke with bottom of jacket, belt, or just fingers)? or did that change?

    Note: she did it in semifinal too against the japanese competitor

    tafftaz

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:23 am

    I believe that as long as the skirt or belt does not encircle the neck then it is fine, but interperetation is everything in shiai.
    I could be wrong under the new interpretations as I cannot find anything specific in relation to the OP's post.
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    finarashi

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by finarashi on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:42 am

    I believe you are allowed to grab any piece of your clothing, but not use belt or jacket to strangle.

    So if it does not encircle then you are OK


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:14 am

    finarashi wrote:I believe you are allowed to grab any piece of your clothing, but not use belt or jacket to strangle.

    So if it does not encircle then you are OK
    I believe there even were some precedents to that, were there not ?



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    NBK

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by NBK on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:39 am

    Wow. Gerbi choked Abegnenou out for 15-20 secs, took almost another minute to get her on her feet.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by nomoremondays on Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:23 am

    davidn wrote:In the 63k final, the winner (Gerbi of Israel) applies a choke with bottom of the jacket.  Shouldn't that be a shido according to the rules (not allowed to choke with bottom of jacket, belt, or just fingers)? or did that change?

    Note: she did it in semifinal too against the japanese competitor
    jacket was not directly looping the neck for the choke. Only used to anchor uke's hand in place.

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by beyondgrappling on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:27 pm

    Here is the Gerbi choke

    and Aussie Judoka Ivo dos Santos demonstrating how to do it:



    still learning

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by still learning on Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:59 pm

    beyondgrappling wrote:Here is the Gerbi choke

    and Aussie Judoka Ivo dos Santos demonstrating how to do it:


    Nice looking choke, incredible how quick some people are in getting information on the net.

    hfviegas

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by hfviegas on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:50 pm

    Well, a fighter can´t take is judogi, can´t untie is belt, it´s a shido...
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    Neil G

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by Neil G on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:28 am

    It's a shido "To apply Shime-waza using the bottom of the jacket or belt, or using only the fingers." so I guess it's a judgement call whether the choke was applied with the hand/wrist with the jacket as anchor or with the jacket itself.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by nomoremondays on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:50 am

    hfviegas wrote:Well, a fighter can´t take is judogi, can´t untie is belt, it´s a shido...
    by the letter, yes, but that particular section you are referring to is usually interpreted as when the player messes about with his uniform to kill time/rest etc, not really when he does it to engage in a positive action. For example, it is quite common to see players use their own jacket to work on various arm traps etc for osaekomi.
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    Davaro

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by Davaro on Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:28 am

    I just wonder at which point does it become "encircling"? I am of the opinion it is the actual jacket *causing* the choke and the hand is just to make the jacket taught...

    But yes, the semantics will result in opinions and judgement calls by referees. As this was a final, at the worlds, this was on video and would have been inspected by all and sundry. I can thus assume it is ok as it was performed.

    Nice effective shimewaza in any event


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    Neil G

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by Neil G on Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:22 am

    Davaro wrote:I just wonder at which point does it become "encircling"? I am of the opinion it is the actual jacket *causing* the choke and the hand is just to make the jacket taught...

    But yes, the semantics will result in opinions and judgement calls by referees. As this was a final, at the worlds, this was on video and would have been inspected by all and sundry. I can thus assume it is ok as it was performed.

    Nice effective shimewaza in any event
    There's two rules, one about encircling and the other about using to choke. I always thought encircling meant trapping a wrist or the like, in which case you have to literally make a circle of fabric around the wrist. You can quite effectively trap a limb using some portion of the judogi without encircling and have it be legal. But to take an extreme example, if a belt fell off and you had it in both hands across uke's neck, pulling back for a belt-assisted guilliotine, that would not be encircling but still be illegal under the rule I quoted.
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    finarashi

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by finarashi on Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:02 pm

    The only illegal way to use jacket or belt to make shime-waza is to fully, completely, 360 degrees encircle the opponents throat. That has been clear past ~40 years


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    beyondgrappling

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by beyondgrappling on Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:06 pm

    finarashi wrote:The only illegal way to use jacket or belt to make shime-waza is to fully,  completely, 360 degrees encircle the opponents throat. That has been clear past ~40 years
    What!! You mean like this:



    although with this choke he still isn't encircling the neck
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    afulldeck

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by afulldeck on Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:24 pm

    I've always called this shimewaza kuzure-hasami-jime is that correct?


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    afulldeck

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by afulldeck on Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:39 am

    afulldeck wrote:I've always called this shimewaza kuzure-hasami-jime is that correct?
    Guess I killed the discussion.......with a question?


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    judo66

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by judo66 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:28 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:I've always called this shimewaza kuzure-hasami-jime is that correct?
    Guess I killed the discussion.......with a question?

    Some people use the term suso jime. whether it is a proper term or not is another question.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:23 am

    afulldeck wrote:I've always called this shimewaza kuzure-hasami-jime is that correct?
    That makes no sense whatsoever. How can a shime-waza be referred to as "kuzure" ?

    A more important question: are you fluent in Japanese with special expertise in Japanese linguistics ? If not, why make up terms in a language you don't master ? Would you ask someone who doesn't speak English to come up with the accurate term in English of a certain concept ?


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    nomoremondays

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by nomoremondays on Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:59 am

    judo66 wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:I've always called this shimewaza kuzure-hasami-jime is that correct?
    Guess I killed the discussion.......with a question?
    Some people use the term suso jime. whether it is a proper term or not is another question.
    ok. i will take the first bullet and open myself for ridicule. bom 

    Firstly for hasami jime i personally don't see any scissoring type action. Also,
    i took one look at mr. dos santos' fine video and I have much respect for his accomplishments
    but I don't think that what is demonstrated in that video is what is happening exactly in the match.
    The video i think shows suso jime in one of the instances, but thats not in the match IMO.

    I think, as I noted in the gif, the anchoring of uke's hand on the lapel by the gi is the key part in how
    this particular technique was done in the match. Not saying that other ways to choke are not possible
    with this entry and set up but in this instance this was key in my view.
    As an aside, we know the form of  okuri eri jime where uke clasps his own collar preventing the entry of
    toris hand to the lapel. But still the okuri eri jime is performed by tori grabbing uke's hand and using
    uke's own hand to  move the lapel and choke him out!
    After the hand is immobilized, Gerbi's own wrist cuts into just one static point on the throat
    on top of uke's hand all the while keeping the head in place with pressure from the back of her thigh

    so my opinion is that it is a unique version of kata-te jime or maybe I am drunken

    medo

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by medo on Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:03 am

    Only ever known any jacket skirt strangle use, as suso jime and obi jime with the use of the tail end of belt.
    Many tricks if your clued up in randori, but the problems in contest situation is the not so clued up ref, bet the ref did not get down to have a good look to see how much rap around was occurring?
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    afulldeck

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by afulldeck on Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:21 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:I've always called this shimewaza kuzure-hasami-jime is that correct?
    That makes no sense whatsoever. How can a shime-waza be referred to as "kuzure" ?

    A more important question: are you fluent in Japanese with special expertise in Japanese linguistics ?  If not, why make up terms in a language you don't master ?  Would you ask someone who doesn't speak English to come up with the accurate term in English of a certain concept ?
    CK the reason i asked the question was i had already surmised it was wrong. This isn't something I made up it was something I was told. I am Not a Japanese speaker and I'm forced to believe in the people around me (past and future). I am aware there are far too many misconceptions and language issues in western judo so I asked the question in order to find the correct naming convention.

    That said, it seems that I am not the only confused soul. We have two other suggestions such as suso jime and kata te jime that seem to float in the judo ether as possible correct language for this technique. So is either correct or all incorrect?


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    davidn

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by davidn on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:27 am


    Thank you for the feedback. We have our first tournament this weekend and the chief referee is an A referee who is very active and also approachable. I hope to have a chance to ask him about this. One would think that in the absence of interference from the referee committee that they are essentially saying it is legal.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:36 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:I've always called this shimewaza kuzure-hasami-jime is that correct?
    That makes no sense whatsoever. How can a shime-waza be referred to as "kuzure" ?

    A more important question: are you fluent in Japanese with special expertise in Japanese linguistics ?  If not, why make up terms in a language you don't master ?  Would you ask someone who doesn't speak English to come up with the accurate term in English of a certain concept ?
    CK the reason i asked the question was i had already surmised it was wrong. This isn't something I made up it was something I was told. I am Not a Japanese speaker and I'm forced to believe in the people around me (past and future). I am aware there are far too many misconceptions and language issues in western judo so I asked the question in order to find the correct naming convention.

    That said, it seems that I am not the only confused soul. We have two other suggestions such as suso jime and kata te jime that seem to float in the judo ether as possible correct language for this technique. So is either correct or all incorrect?
    As I have explained, there is no suso-jime in Kôdôkan, just like there is no hasami-jime or kensui-jime in Kôdôkan. In Kôdôkan, it is katate-jime, nothing more, nothing less.

    "Suso-jime" is not a name that is used very often. Kashiwazaki uses it though. He uses it librally. That means that a low part of the lapel he counts as suso-jime (in non-Kodokan-terminology). One can debate this, but it is not unique. There are many chokes or armbars that can be counted under more than one name. For example, under old terminology, every sankaku-jime was also ashi-gatame-jime.

    So really one way to keep this lucid is to consider it as katate-jime and then specify it further as that form of katate-jime that is sometimes called suso-jime or whatever ...


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    JudoMum

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    Re: 2013 Worlds, 63k final

    Post by JudoMum on Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:52 am

    I overheard a coach discussing this with a well qualified ref here in the UK. The ref was insistent that the choke was illegal in competition as encircling with the jacket is against the rules. The coach patiently explained that the gi was not encircling but being used as leverage/anchor point, and that it had been allowed on two occasions at the worlds with presumably highly experienced refs and a full CARE system. This ref was still adamant that it was not a legal technique and it wouldn't be allowed on his 'watch'..

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