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    Shohei Ono Waza

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    The_Harvest

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by The_Harvest on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:56 am

    Shohei Ono Shocked 

    What a judoka. I haven't seen anyone since Kosei Inoue retired perform an Uchi-Mata so graceful yet deadly.
    Like Inoue he did it during the final. I hope we will see more of him.



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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:19 am

    The_Harvest wrote:Shohei Ono Shocked 

    What a judoka. I haven't seen anyone since Kosei Inoue retired perform an Uchi-Mata so graceful yet deadly.
    Like Inoue he did it during the final. I hope we will see more of him.

    Yes, Ôno was a pleasure to watch, someone who clearly isn't a one-trick monkey either. His ô-soto-gari on Van Tichelt was nice to see too. Non-Japanese were mostly trying to outgrip Ôno, since if they would have fought in a more open way, the fights would have been finished even sooner. It's always a pleasure to see when jûdô is taking the upper hand. A very nice comeback from Japan too after the 2012 Olympics. Question now is if they will be able to continue this harvest of medals in the heavier weight classes.

    Marti Malloy's silver medal's great reward for a dedicated judoka. I am very happy for her. No chance in the final though. She fought without control. She attacked and came in with throws while not controlling her opponent unable to make use of action/reaction of her opponent, which is textbook scenario for being countered, which is exactly what happened. Still an amazing feat to to get that far, and a well-deserved award after last year's Olympic bronze. Congrats, well done !!


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    Stacey

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by Stacey on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:20 am

    hey, Malloy was beat by Silva in Silva's home court - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by finarashi on Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:43 pm

    Stacey wrote:hey, Malloy was beat by Silva in Silva's home court - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
    .. and with Judo too Smile


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    hfviegas

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by hfviegas on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:13 am

    Shohei Ono, last uchi-mata was more a hane-goshi don´t you think so?
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    The_Harvest

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by The_Harvest on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:20 am

    hfviegas wrote:Shohei Ono, last uchi-mata was more a hane-goshi don´t you think so?
    He attempted an Uchi-Mata but Ugo Legrand closed his legs just before Ono decided to throw him.


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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by nomoremondays on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:33 am

    man, i was pretty upset yesterday. I thought Wang got the short end of the stick in his first match against Ono. I thought the referee was too generous in penalizing him so quick and so often. I felt Ono deserved a few stalling penalties to even it up. However I am a little biased also...

    But the aplomb with which Ono dispatched the rest of his competitors made me very happy. So glad it was him in the end and not Legrand who was so defensive the whole day.
    Looks like the koreans have to go back to the drawing board with the rules that are in place now. Probability of penalty from false attack > Probability of penalty from passivity right now IMO, which does not suit the way the koreans were approaching it.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:51 am

    hfviegas wrote:Shohei Ono, last uchi-mata was more a hane-goshi don´t you think so?
    Hane-goshi ? No way, clearly uchi-mata beyond any doubt, in a way that reminds of Yoshida Hidehiko in his prime.

    What is remarkable is that Ôno still has enough pull despite his tsurite-arm turning. The reason he is able to still pull this of is because of his debana, and because of optimal positioning of his center of mass, with tight body contact and optimal rotation of is body. It is far more difficult for a human being to resist sideway-rotational loss of balance than back-to-front loss of balance. Still, it is a detail he would best devote attention to as there is potential for serious should injury. 'IF' in future any opponent is able to block him off in time, and pushes him forward into the tatami and follows, he will separate his AC joint, and with that probably catch psychological fear that might affect the efficiency of his technique. A warned man is worth two.


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    judo66

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by judo66 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:45 am

    Shohei Ono, last uchi-mata was more a hane-goshi don´t you think so?


    I do think so and the japanese newspapers think so too.

    medo

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by medo on Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:04 pm

    judo66 wrote:Shohei Ono, last uchi-mata was more a hane-goshi don´t you think so?


    I do think so and the japanese newspapers think so too.
    I stopped the vid at 3.52, ono's leg certainly did not look like an uchi-mata leg was CK commenting on the earlier throw?

    Just to add one's attack could be say uchi-mata but depending on reaction, how deep you get "anything really" one adapts the technique for the goal of throwing. But I got to say even though I teach uchi-mata in many ways that don't from the above view, from uke lifting off the mat look like uchi-mata.


    Last edited by medo on Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding more content)
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:19 am

    medo wrote:
    judo66 wrote:Shohei Ono, last uchi-mata was more a hane-goshi don´t you think so?


    I do think so and the japanese newspapers think so too.
    I stopped the vid at 3.52, ono's leg certainly did not look like an uchi-mata leg was CK commenting on the earlier throw?
    And what precisely is an uchi-mata leg ?

    You have people moving, people resisting, people shifting, at no point is the opponent lifted on the leg. Where exactly the leg is, makes little of no difference unless one wants to start differentiating between taka-uchi-mata, ko-uchi-mata, and ô-uchi-mata. The specific form employed here is called "okurikomi-uchi-mata".

    Hane-goshi is virtually unseen as a throw in competitive jûdô as it is that difficult to pull off. Name one hane-goshi expert among the hundreds of continental, world or Olympic champions. I am not even sure that if you would step on the mat with Ôno for a friendly interaction and ask him to demonstrate hane-goshi on you that he would be able to do a proper hane-goshi. Even on YouTube, you'd be hard-pressed to find a single true hane-goshi in competition. You'd have to go back to the 1960s almost to find a true hane-goshi expert who threw in competition with hane-goshi. I remember a couple of occasions where people I knew very well scored in competition and where people started arguing that the throw wasn't harai-goshi but ashi-guruma because of how and where his leg was and so and so, when I knew for 100% that the person could not even perform a proper ashi-guruma statically, never could and couldn't even today. The biomechanical mechanisms of these throws are quite different. Just like it's still sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi if you put the blocking foot at the height of uke's knee and apply the biomechnics of sasae, and just like it's still hiza-guruma when you block the opponent just above the foot and apply the biomechanics of hiza-guruma. It's obvious that Ôno's tokui-waza is uchi-mata and for someone of his level who is part of world elite class judoists, he can hence perform that throw out of a variety of angles, still pull it off despite a variety of reactions, despite having lost control partially with an arm or a leg. He knows what his margins are and for errors that he makes here or there he instinctively reassesses and compensates. It's that what coordination means in jûdô.

    The high incidence of uchi-mata in jûdô competition and is preference by so many jûdôka is not mere coincidence. There is a proper scientific reason for that. Biomechanical analysis has shown that uchi-mata was the throw where the person performing it generated the highest power of any throw. In other words, even a relatively small and weaker person using uchi-mata can generate much more power than with virtually any other jûdô-throw. For that reason learning and mastering uchi-mata is important and gives you a dangerous and effective weapon. If you think of uchi-mata specialists in competition there is no end to the list, same with seoi-nage. So, even when people pick throws because "they look cool", at the end of the day, the underlying subconscious reason why so many people in jûdô stick with so few throws, has its objective reasons.

    In terms of physics uchi-mata is the reverse equivalent of ô-soto-gari (I am talking physics now, not the 'pedagogy' or 'tradition' or 'history'). Both throws rely on the physics principle of a mechanical couple. The advantage of these throws is that they can be performed without any kuzushi, and without needing any so-called "stopping moment". That makes them highly effective, and 'easier' to pull off than, let's say, tai-otoshi or uki-otoshi. 'Easier' means obviously if you technically master them. But basically, you can still pull these throws off even when kuzushi totally fails, as long as you master the coordination and principle of the throw. That is a huge advantage. If you want to go really gungho on this, be my guest:

    Yabune, T. 籔根敏和, Tokuda, S. 徳田真三, Nagatani, Y. 長谷川裕, & Yano, M. 矢野勝. Jūdō nage-waza no honegumi uchi-mata 柔道投技の骨組み 内股 [The framework of jūdō throwing techniques: uchi-mata]. Tōkyō: Fumaidō shuppan 不昧堂出版; 2005; Pp. 1-104.

    Sacripanti, A. La revisione biomeccanica dei fondamenti del judo Kodokan del Dr. Jigoro Kano. Med Sport 65, 2: 265-281, 2012.


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    afulldeck

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by afulldeck on Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:39 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    In terms of physics uchi-mata is the reverse equivalent of ô-soto-gari (I am talking physics now, not the 'pedagogy' or 'tradition' or 'history'). Both throws rely on the physics principle of a mechanical couple.
    "...reverse equivalent..." = I'm confused.

    Don't you mean the mechanical couple used for ô-soto-gari is roughly the same as uchi-mata?


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    medo

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by medo on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:08 am

    [quote="Cichorei Kano"]
    medo wrote:
    judo66 wrote:Shohei Ono, last uchi-mata was more a hane-goshi don´t you think so?


    I do think so and the japanese newspapers think so too.
    I stopped the vid at 3.52, ono's leg certainly did not look like an uchi-mata leg was CK commenting on the earlier throw?
    And what precisely is an uchi-mata leg ?

    You have people moving, people resisting, people shifting, at no point is the opponent lifted on the leg. Where exactly the leg is, makes little of no difference unless one wants to start differentiating between taka-uchi-mata, ko-uchi-mata, and ô-uchi-mata. The specific form employed here is called "okurikomi-uchi-mata".

    Thank you CK for putting me straight.

    Uchi-mata as the inner thigh throw, I have been taught and teach O-KO and taka with the attacking leg between ukes legs never across both which I am gathering is called okurikomi, as an ashiwaza the attacking leg has impact on the technique well at least that’s what I have learn't over the years by myself and many instructors, I only wish Hosaka sensei was still here to pick his knowledge on this on the mat.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:40 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    In terms of physics uchi-mata is the reverse equivalent of ô-soto-gari (I am talking physics now, not the 'pedagogy' or 'tradition' or 'history'). Both throws rely on the physics principle of a mechanical couple.
    "...reverse equivalent..." = I'm confused.

    Don't you mean the mechanical couple used for ô-soto-gari is roughly the same as uchi-mata?
    Correct. Opposite direction. We are talking physics and vectors now, so things such as gripping, exact point of contact, and other technical fine points are redundant in this context; so are the addition of rotation to produce sideways rotational loss of balance, or the tilting of the vectors to first steer the opponent as high as possible off the ground. In terms of physics uchi-mata is simply ô-soto-gari done in the 180° opposite direction, or instead of to uke's back to uke's front.


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    afulldeck

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by afulldeck on Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:29 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    In terms of physics uchi-mata is the reverse equivalent of ô-soto-gari (I am talking physics now, not the 'pedagogy' or 'tradition' or 'history'). Both throws rely on the physics principle of a mechanical couple.
    "...reverse equivalent..." = I'm confused.

    Don't you mean the mechanical couple used for ô-soto-gari is roughly the same as uchi-mata?
    Correct. Opposite direction. We are talking physics and vectors now, so things such as gripping, exact point of contact, and other technical fine points are redundant in this context; so are the addition of rotation to produce sideways rotational loss of balance, or the tilting of the vectors to first steer the opponent as high as possible off the ground. In terms of physics uchi-mata is simply ô-soto-gari done in the 180° opposite direction, or instead of to uke's back to uke's front.
    Thanks. My physics training hasn't gone to waste, that is what I thought you meant.


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    Ryvai

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    Re: Shohei Ono Waza

    Post by Ryvai on Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:09 pm

    Interesting read on biomechanics:
    http://judoinfo.com/pdf/Biomechanics.pdf

    The comparison of o-soto-gari and uchi-mata is also there Smile

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