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    Congratulations Tokyo

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    Jonesy

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    Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:42 am

    Congratulations to the city of Tokyo on selection for hosting the 2020 Olympic Games.
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    ItchyKomi

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by ItchyKomi on Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:40 am

    I have started saving now!

    I pity the Japanese 2020 team.. I fear the pressure to succeed will be ridiculous!
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    BillC

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by BillC on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:20 pm

    ItchyKomi wrote:I have started saving now!

    I pity the Japanese 2020 team.. I fear the pressure to succeed will be ridiculous!
    Maybe baseball instead of judo?


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:46 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Congratulations to the city of Tokyo on selection for hosting the 2020 Olympic Games.



    Watch out though, sushi might be doping now !




    "There is NO problem in Fukushima. It is all lies from the Chinese and the Korean. TEPCO has it all under control. We will show the world proof by organizing a children's judo match to show everyone"




    In conclusion:



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    NBK

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by NBK on Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:39 am

    Fukushima is a non-event to anyone outside the fence. The Thames has more pollution in it than the water from the plant.

    Tokyo will have a fine Olympics, will cost a bomb, and Monday AM I'm going to invest in construction, hotel, transportation, and security company stocks.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by finarashi on Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:05 am

    ,, I wonder will Judo be included in Tokyo Olympics


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:53 am

    NBK wrote:Fukushima is a non-event to anyone outside the fence.   The Thames has more pollution in it than the water from the plant.
    You have to swim naked in the Thames while brushing your teeth and rincing all of your bodies cavities in order to get affected by it. You don't have to swim or used a douche bag with  Fukushima cooling water to be affected by it. The pollution has entered the food chain. Recently talked about this to a nuclear engineer and prior President of a national security agency for the protection against radioactivity. It's bad, it's really bad. Only now things start to emerge, very much as was expected, that they didn't tell the complete story.

    Just in May they were still proudly announcing that there were no rise in cancer cases due to Fukushima:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22737548

    Less than three months later that view was reversed announcing (very much as expected) a disturbing rise in thyroid cancer.

    http://rt.com/news/fukushima-children-thyroid-cancer-783/

    None of those people drank, cooked or bathed in radioactive water stored in the tanks at Fukushima. It's isn't necesary. It will only get worse. Anyone thinking that not a single piece of food with increased values slips through the foot control is an idiot. That what is ingested is far worse than the simply external exposure, and that what is ingested can and will occur at remote locations. Now is the time to become an oncologist and move to Japan if one wants to have a great career.


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:19 am

    finarashi wrote:,, I wonder will Judo be included in Tokyo Olympics

    Wrestling is back in.
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    NBK

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by NBK on Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:53 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NBK wrote:Fukushima is a non-event to anyone outside the fence.   The Thames has more pollution in it than the water from the plant.
    You have to swim naked in the Thames while brushing your teeth and rincing all of your bodies cavities in order to get affected by it. You don't have to swim or used a douche bag with  Fukushima cooling water to be affected by it. The pollution has entered the food chain. Recently talked about this to a nuclear engineer and prior President of a national security agency for the protection against radioactivity. It's bad, it's really bad. Only now things start to emerge, very much as was expected, that they didn't tell the complete story.

    Just in May they were still proudly announcing that there were no rise in cancer cases due to Fukushima:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22737548

    Less than three months later that view was reversed announcing (very much as expected) a disturbing rise in thyroid cancer.

    http://rt.com/news/fukushima-children-thyroid-cancer-783/

    None of those people drank, cooked or bathed in radioactive water stored in the tanks at Fukushima. It's isn't necesary. It will only get worse. Anyone thinking that not a single piece of food with increased values slips through the foot control is an idiot. That what is ingested is far worse than the simply external exposure, and that what is ingested can and will occur at remote locations. Now is the time to become an oncologist and move to Japan if one wants to have a great career.
    I am surprised. You are picking and choosing facts to suite your politics, not the science. I did not expect that from you.

    The stored, contaminated cooling water at Fukushima is of no harm to anyone. The leaks are of no harm to anyone. Most of it could be discharged, simply released from the tanks, because the level of radiation is so low.

    It takes years to thyroid cancers from radionuclide ingestion and there hasn't been enough time to manifest in thyroid cancers. There is no demonstrable link to Fukushima to the recent thyroid cancer cases - the time elapsed is too short. It is disturbing only because someone wrongfully made the link to press a political point or sensationalism to sell news.

    The National Institute of Health hosts a study that compiled data on almost 120,000 known to have been exposed to high levels of radiation, that resulted in 700 thyroid cancer cases; only 2 demonstrated within 5 years. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7871153 While the minimum for thyroid cancers is something around 2.5yrs, most is much longer, so these recent cases may not be related to Fukushima. This is not Chernobyl, in which the accursed Soviet govt, knowing the dangers, intentionally had schoolchildren drink very highly contaminated milk in the very early days after and during the incident. Even among those highly exposed children, the thyroid rate is elevated but not epidemic, and most manifested years later. And thyroid cancer has about the lowest lethality rate of all cancers and you can survive without your thyroid. My mother in law's thyroid hasn't worked for decades.

    The Fukushima situation will not get 'worse'. It has gotten better every day through waste water treatment, site cleanups, and natural decay. It has decayed politically.

    No one claims no contaminated food got through - but it was low level to start with, and much, much lower now, and the contaminated areas mapped and quarantined. I once calculated that you'd have to eat 40 tons of spinach from the very early days of the incident to increase your risk of cancer significantly, and the majority of the radiation was from Iodine-131, which has a half life of just over 8 days. Of course, by the time I could eat 4 kg of spinach, say 8 days, the radioactivity would have dropped in half, meaning then I'd have to eat 80 tons to risk an elevated level of risk of cancer. In 8 more days, the radiation would have dropped in half again, and I'd have to eat 160 tons..... Popeye I would be.

    As of today, 9/9/2013, by far the largest radioactive byproduct of fission, the radio-iodine has been reduced through 993 days of decay, or about 114 half lives, which means the most hazardous material is now 2.89854020503e-31 of the original material, or ~0.00000000000000000000000000000001% of the original amount. That is why there is no discussion of iodine now, only cesium, and to a lesser degree, strontium, which are very different materials in quality, and much less quantity than the iodine.

    Meanwhile, I expose myself to greater health risk every day by doing judo, riding a motorcycle, being overweight, being in an earthquake prone country, etc. And expose myself to more radiation every time I board an aircraft.

    The cesium-137 has a longer half-life, ~30 years, so about 94% of it remains. But bear in mind that there was very much less of that to start with than the iodine.

    Does that sound like it is getting 'worse'?

    The Japanese limit for fish radiation is 10x more conservative than the US, and only a percentage of local fish caught test above that very low, non-hazardous, conservative limit, and they are not consumed, although they are safe to consume. That is only in a limited area around Fukushima, and low in the water column, so fish in the area of Fukushima such as flounder, a bottom dweller, apparently take in enough of the cesium hydroxide to register.

    So, let's put it in perspective. The naturally occurring radioactive material in the Pacific is something on the order of 8,125,370,000 trillion becquerels of radiation. Fukushima might add 20 trillion becquerels of radiation if all the cooling water was simply dumped without cleaning, which as I note is not the case, as the majority of the stored water has been treated and could be safely dumped anywhere with no additional treatment. And bear in mind that the US and France tested very dirty nuclear weapons in the Pacific for decades - hundreds of nuclear explosions and the resultant radiation. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24100-should-fukushimas-radioactive-water-be-dumped-at-sea.html#.UicTSD-ZlgQ

    Does an additional 2.46E-09 or 0.000000246% to the naturally occurring radiation in the Pacific make this "a horrible disaster' ?

    And, that radioactive cesium hydroxide doesn't simply sit there - highly water soluble but heavier than water, it wanders about in solution through tides, surface and subsurface currents, winds, Brownian motion, etc. It is being dissipated through the oceans of the world, and deteriorating every second. The bio half-life of cesium in the fish that do absorb it (some apparently don't at all) is around 50 days, so the fish are flushing out the cesium as they intake less and less, as it decays and it is dissipated.

    Meanwhile, I'm still not swimming in the Thames.

    Fukushima is not an issue in Japan outside the fence at the plant. Come enjoy.

    NBK
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:17 pm

    NBK wrote:
    I am surprised.  You are picking and choosing facts to suite your politics, not the science.  I did not expect that from you.  

    The stored, contaminated cooling water at Fukushima is of no harm to anyone.  The leaks are of no harm to anyone.  Most of it could be discharged, simply released from the tanks, because the level of radiation is so low.

    It takes years to thyroid cancers from radionuclide ingestion and there hasn't been enough time to manifest in thyroid cancers.   There is no demonstrable link to Fukushima to the recent thyroid cancer cases - the time elapsed is too short.  It is disturbing only because someone wrongfully made the link to press a political point or sensationalism to sell news.    

    The National Institute of Health hosts a study that compiled data on almost 120,000 known to have been exposed to high levels of radiation, that resulted in 700 thyroid cancer cases; only 2 demonstrated within 5 years.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7871153  While the minimum for thyroid cancers is something around 2.5yrs, most is much longer, so these recent cases may not be related to Fukushima.  This is not Chernobyl, in which the accursed Soviet govt, knowing the dangers, intentionally had schoolchildren drink very highly contaminated milk in the very early days after and during the incident.  Even among those highly exposed children, the thyroid rate is elevated but not epidemic, and most manifested years later.  And thyroid cancer has about the lowest lethality rate of all cancers and you can survive without your thyroid.  My mother in law's thyroid hasn't worked for decades.  

    The Fukushima situation will not get 'worse'.  It has gotten better every day through waste water treatment, site cleanups, and natural decay.  It has decayed politically.

    No one claims no contaminated food got through - but it was low level to start with, and much, much lower now, and the contaminated areas mapped and quarantined.  I once calculated that you'd have to eat 40 tons of spinach from the very early days of the incident to increase your risk of cancer significantly, and the majority of the radiation was from Iodine-131, which has a half life of just over 8 days.  Of course, by the time I could eat 4 kg of spinach, say 8 days, the radioactivity would have dropped in half, meaning then I'd have to eat 80 tons to risk an elevated level of risk of cancer.  In 8 more days, the radiation would have dropped in half again, and I'd have to eat 160 tons.....  Popeye I would be.  

    As of today, 9/9/2013, by far the largest radioactive byproduct of fission, the radio-iodine has been reduced through 993 days of decay, or about 114 half lives, which means the most hazardous material is now 2.89854020503e-31 of the original material, or ~0.00000000000000000000000000000001% of the original amount.  That is why there is no discussion of iodine now, only cesium, and to a lesser degree, strontium, which are very different materials in quality, and much less quantity than the iodine.

    Meanwhile, I expose myself to greater health risk every day by doing judo, riding a motorcycle, being overweight, being in an earthquake prone country, etc.  And expose myself to more radiation every time I board an aircraft.  

    The cesium-137 has a longer half-life, ~30 years, so about 94% of it remains.  But bear in mind that there was very much less of that to start with than the iodine.  

    Does that sound like it is getting 'worse'?  

    The Japanese limit for fish radiation is 10x more conservative than the US, and only a percentage of local fish caught test above that very low, non-hazardous, conservative limit, and they are not consumed, although they are safe to consume.  That is only in a limited area around Fukushima, and low in the water column, so fish in the area of Fukushima such as flounder, a bottom dweller, apparently take in enough of the cesium hydroxide to register.  

    So, let's put it in perspective.  The naturally occurring radioactive material in the Pacific is something on the order of 8,125,370,000 trillion becquerels of radiation.  Fukushima might add 20 trillion becquerels of radiation if all the cooling water was simply dumped without cleaning, which as I note is not the case, as the majority of the stored water has been treated and could be safely dumped anywhere with no additional treatment.    And bear in mind that the US and France tested very dirty nuclear weapons in the Pacific for decades - hundreds of nuclear explosions and the resultant radiation.  http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24100-should-fukushimas-radioactive-water-be-dumped-at-sea.html#.UicTSD-ZlgQ

    Does an additional 2.46E-09 or 0.000000246% to the naturally occurring radiation in the Pacific make this "a horrible disaster' ?

    And, that radioactive cesium hydroxide doesn't simply sit there - highly water soluble but heavier than water, it wanders about in solution through tides, surface and subsurface currents, winds, Brownian motion, etc.  It is being dissipated through the oceans of the world, and deteriorating every second.  The bio half-life of cesium in the fish that do absorb it (some apparently don't at all) is around 50 days, so the fish are flushing out the cesium as they intake less and less, as it decays and it is dissipated.  

    Meanwhile, I'm still not swimming in the Thames.  

    Fukushima is not an issue in Japan outside the fence at the plant.  Come enjoy.

    NBK
    Not quite, but I am glad you feel so enthusiastic about it. I personally have not much to gain from either situations. I am not involved in any politics and I am certainly not picking facts that suit me rather than science. I provided links to news reports here. That should have been obvious from the text and title, things that were recently in the news. That is also why it was posted in a section on 'News'  and not in a section on reference or health which is where I usually deal with the hard science. I did not claim anywhere, or did not even suggest to provide scientific analysis, which links to a few newspapers rarely are.

    That being said, in denouncing my post you are demonstrating some spectacular aerobatics yourself making a reference to what might be a total amount of radioactivity added to the Pacific. There are quite a bit of misleading assumptions your are making and announcing such as the assumption that anything added gets evenly distributed and mixed with each and every cubic inch of water everywhere in the Pacific, rejecting any local concentrations, rejecting the absorption by fish, and other carbon-based lifeforms and materials which absorb that concentration while it is high and before this perfect dilution you seem to believe in. According to your rational if I put you in the ocean and pour a bucket of plutonium over your head, your health risk needs to be calculated by dilution of that bucket with reference to the total water in the Pacific ...

    Something similar applies  to the airborne radioactive pollution which isn't equally distributed either and likely concentrated in radioactive clouds.

    However, these things aren't really the point. Indeed  --and I did not say anything else since I did not even speak about it--  the concentrations in evacuees in terms of Iodine were much less when compared to the Tsjernobyl accident. What is really the concern is that what has entered the food chain, in particular the Cesium, and other components with long half lives. I have already suggested that.

    Nevertheless, even with regard to the Iodine or any component with short, even much shorter life, you are arguing that basically as long as something has a short half-life it isn't dangerous no matter what the concentration, because it gets quickly flushed out of your body. That, I find most remarkable as it also assumes that radioactivity only does damage if the exposure is long enough. Very remarkable indeed. Let's say something has extremely short half-life, like 4 hours, then such a component in your reasoning is not dangerous because even at high concentration it could have been washed out of your body just in a couple of days. That is interesting too.

    Your suggestion that you would need to eat 40 tons of spinach to be at risk is rather misleading. Your portions that make up the 40 millions of spinach will all have totally different concentrations, and in fact you might have enough with half a plate of spinach if that spinach just happens to have the wrong kind of concentrations of the wrong component, but you won't know, and you also won't care since in your head you will be dividing 40 million by the mass of spinach on your plate enthusiastically concluding that you are safe by the same rationale you provided in your post.

    With regard to the stored cooling water, we'll see how solid those tanks are when another much smaller earthquake hits them, but let's skip that for now since neither me nor you know that as it depends on many factors.

    Your conclusion that doing judo is more risky is a complete caricature. In judo you may not know exactly what throw is going to come, but window of possibilities is low, and even if it goes wrong, quite clear what has happened, quite predictable, even in worst case scenarios such as broken neck, or epidural or subdural hematoma. The fact that of these rare accidents things were badly is because there usually was no person present with proper medical training who promptly act or promptly have the person transported to a hopsital with a neurosurgery specialty ward with specialists who could promptly do what was necessary.

    The unpredictabilities regarding the Fukushima accident are many times greater, and comparing that with the risk of a judo accidents may be sufficient for JudoForum cabaret, it is not serious, but one could always try and convince your insurance company of that when you discuss with them providing cover for whatever brave act you are planning to engage in to show the world that Fukushima is all safe.

    So, really what remains the major concern can be expressed in a simple sentence: the radioactivity with a long half-life that has entered the food chain and that may or may not one day end up on your plate without you knowing. It's probably not going to be that one fish of which they showed the concentration was very high, nor the one that measured almost nothing, but it will be another one and another one of which you will never know if they measured high or low and of exactly which component. I-131 in food FOR US AND GOING BACK TO THE DAY OF THE ACCIDENT, indeed is long gone. In 32 days, its concentration would have been reduced to about 1/16th, and even though not as spectacular also for Cs-134 with a half life of about 2 yrs, it there is some hope. However, such conclusion relies on the assumption that all and any radioactive contamination would stem merely from the very first days of the accident. It does not take into account contamination which still may occur today. Cs-137 with its 30-year half-life is a different animal. Converting these all into "I-131-like numbers" or "I-131 equivalent", one could multiply the Cs-137 and Cs-134 radiation by an 40x and 5x, respectively and all express them in a single number of I-131 numbers. If one does that, then in total I believe that the release was about 15% of that of Tsjernobyl. Only that does does not explain the whole story. I assume that in your statement you are putting your eggs in the basket of its presumed BIOLOGICAL half-life of about 70 days. Assuming that such is true, it doesn't say anything about its danger. It seems to be implied that only the dosage at the very start would be dangerous, but that once 70 days have passed it no longer is. That obviously isn't true. It may still be dangerous after having passed several times through its decimating cycle if only the dosage initially was high enough, or if there is sustained exposure. Total released exposure in the air, soil or water, doesn't say anything about an individual's individual risk. Or let's rephrase that. Whilst likely very high dosages released in the environment carry a high chance of dangerous exposure of people in the neighborhood, one can't turn it around and say, just because the total release was only 1/15th of Tsjernobyl, you're OK, for the simply reason, that the amount to which an individual has to be exposed is obviously far less than the total amount. It's not a puzzle one is going to solve by averages, but one of individual cases. If I pour a bottle of rat poison into the ocean, no doubt you can still safely drink the water from the ocean. However, concluding from that that a bit of rat poison in your lunch isn't dangers, is stretching things as you personally only would need a little bit directly from the bottle into your lunch to feel its effect, with the stuff poured in the ocean being of little relevance to you.

    Apart from the above, i.e. the Iodine and Cs-137 and -134, which are most frequently talked about 20 to 40 TBq of tritium has leaked into the sea. You have a 12-year half life there and also the dilution effect which you have quoted. However, it doesn't say much about the fish on your personal plate. As far as I am aware, despite the efforts and successes of decontaminating cooling water from most other significant contaminators, they still don't have the mechanisms in place to decontaminated the tritium (even though the mechanism exists). From what I understand it will still take another 10 years to a quarter century before they can actually remove all the fuel.

    Then there is of course also the dangerous strontium-90 of which now up to 100 times more than cesium is being found. Strontium-90 accumulates in bone. No thyroid cancer necessary there, as strontium can give you an excellent alternative menu: how about some excruciatingly painful bone cancer ?! Most of the time they skip mentioning anything about strontium-90 when discussing the problems:http://enenews.com/pbs-30-times-strontium-90-cesium-fukushima-plant-strontium-dangerous-problem-researchers-plant-surprised-continuing-radioactivity-found-sounds-like-ongoing-experiment-video

    As one nuclear physicist told me "things will be just fine ... in 30 years" !

    I am not sure how you see the mechanism of how radioactivity actually does cause cancer. Ultimately, it depends if your personal exposure (not the total released radioactivity) irrespective of its concentration and duration since one is not working with a machine that only responds if a certain minimal average is reached (you might actually be 3 SD's above the sensitivity of  DNA damage when compared to an average person) is able to cause chromosomal breaks that are replicated with our body's immune system failing to self-abort through apoptosis or lysosomal or peroxisomal interference or mobilizing macrophages. For this reason we will also never know the true damage for sure, since in some the body's natural immune system fortunately enough will be able to deal with it. By the time one actually might get sick, the number of confounders to which the person might have been exposed will likely be sufficiently high to question everything. And yes, of course exposure to nuclear weapons testing, etc, is an entirely different story, but ... I did not use that as a comparison either, nor did I ever suggest they were similar.

    Having identified this as the most important and aside from any poltical views, jokes or pissing contests, the statement "The bio half-life of cesium in the fish that do absorb it (some apparently don't at all) is around 50 days, so the fish are flushing out the cesium as they intake less and less, as it decays and it is dissipated." I find the most worrying. But then again, it's not my fight, even less my politics. I am not a nuclear physicist myself. However, physicochemistry and and a long and extensive course in radioimmunassay were part of my course work, and professionally we did work with radioactive tracers (both clinically and experimentally) in all kinds of hormone studies. For in vivo labelling we used tritium, and for radioimmunoassays, radioactive labeling was typically Iodine-125 or tritium. Clinical tests would use things such as Technetium-99. And then there's of course the stuff in imaging technology such as X-Rays and CT-Scans. Anyhow, I never personally had an accident, as far as I am aware  (with these things you can never be sure unless you actually witness it or have immediate symptoms) but accidents did happen. One of my professors in radioimmunoassay with a background in pharmacy did have an accident, despite his great expertise; can't remember exactly what component, presumably iodine, since I remember it having a short half life. Nevertheless, he or we certainly never had the reaction of "whatever, it only has a short half-life" or "oh, nothing it will just get flushed out", and the accident even occurred in our university hospital with specialized staff on hand and he knowing perfectly what to do and immediately. He's still alive, and hopefully has never attracted any ugly disease due to that. Nevertheless, the only thing I did was in addition to the news reports mention how a physicist and nuclear specialist previously in charge of a national agency for the protection against radionuclear accidents and who followed up on the matter had a far more grim view about the situation than you do. But maybe he is completely incompetent despite his experience and function and not politically having anything to gain from the situation.. It's not my fight, but I choose to remain on the safe side. You can call me a chicken for that, I don't care, and certainly do not wish you anything else but good health despite the challenges, which I understand you do not consider much of challenge. It's true, lag time ON THE AVERAGE is pretty long for thyroid cancer. According to Seaberg et al. (Arch Otolaryngol Head Neck Surg. 133, 4: 355-359, 2009) IN THEIR STUDY GROUP (exposure probably was a lot lower), it was an average of near 29 years (http://archotol.jamanetwork.com/data/Journals/OTOL/9837/ooa80144_355_359.pdf). Food for the skeptics, no doubt, only the subjects in Seaberg's study obviously weren't young children and fetuses known to be much more sensitive. So, let's come back to this discussion in ... September 2042 ...

    Apart from that, to think that one should only devote attention to the thyroid is rather imprudent. The thyroid produces its hormones from iodine, so for obvious reasons any radioactivity related to iodine becomes critical for this organ. That doesn't mean that when talking cesium there aren't other organs that are critical and far more complex. You can cut out someone's thyroid; he'll live. You can't cut out someone's liver, well unless you're reenacting Monty Python and even there the guy didn't live.

    It's a very enthusiastic and progressive view on life and reminds me of when I was in the military. We were getting a high inspection of our kitchen and eating facilities. Days before the colonel in threatened everyone, so they worked day and night taking every piece apart to clean it so when the health inspection arrived we got a an excellent report. They never got to see the cockroaches that were around every other day of the year, nor any of the machines or equipment in their normal state. Nevertheless, it's good to hear that your mind is at peace with everything you consume in terms of food in Japan, Fukushima or not. I have to keep thinking of the good ol' example of the poor statistician ... How on earth could he have ever drowned ?  After all, the water was only an average of 10 inches deep ...

    Final caveat is that in basing any appreciation on what has happened we also are limited on the released information being actually true. In these cases there often are a lot of lies involved where key people are mostly interested in saving their own ass. These things have a tendency of coming out only many years later, so it may be prudent to hold on and brace for all significant information they have suppressed from the public.

    An interesting read was also a 1998 article from the New York Times about Marie Curie; even she denied the risks of radioactivity, can you imagine ! Fair enough, iodine en cesium aren't quite radium and Curie's exposure was daily and for a long time, while carrying chemicals in her pocket and similar things. Nevertheless, numerous other deaths follows such as particularly those of many women employed as watch dial painters. All little personal and individual tragedies despite average numbers that can say anything, while standard deviations are typically kept out of the stories:

    http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/06/science/a-glow-in-the-dark-and-a-lesson-in-scientific-peril.html

    In any case, if you start showing symptoms similar to Eben Byers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Byers), do let us know; if not, we might notice ourselves anyhow. Smile


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:00 am; edited 6 times in total


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    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by BillC on Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:40 pm

    NBK wrote:Fukushima is a non-event to anyone outside the fence ... etc.
    Mr. Natural, hope that you are well.  Same for Mrs. Natural, please pass her my regards.

    -  Thank you for allowing me to demonstrate that it is not necessary to include the entire previous post when quoting.  Enough to simply point out which topics are being referred to is much easier to read.

    -  Thank you also for the factual summary.  It never ceases to amaze me that my radiochemistry prof lived well into his nineties, teaching not only my ignorant young self but years before that the young self of a family friend my father's age ... this in the age of "tickling the dragon's tail."  He outlived his colleagues who ... in the age before fume hoods ... bathed daily in benign materials like benzene, chromium, and so on.

    -  But then again, and you and I have discussed this with some agreement, danger still exists.  There are still hot reactors that have to be managed, if TMI was an example it will be years until the damage will even be fully assessed.  Meantime the same ham-handed knuckleheads will be working on the cleanup ... the same mentality as the "blue glow bucket brigade" to cut corners ... especially with an Olympic deadline (the relevance of this discussion to judo) looming.  We may not agree on the chemistry of the Fukushima reactor explosions, but we probably agree that any future "FOOM!" events will adversely affect all that hotel, real estate and construction stock you bought this morning.


    P.S. ... when the Winter Olympics come around we can have another politically charged discussion about how there may another one ... http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2013/sep/09/climate-change-arctic-sea-ice-delusions


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
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    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by NBK on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:20 pm

    BillC wrote:
    NBK wrote:Fukushima is a non-event to anyone outside the fence ... etc.
    Mr. Natural, hope that you are well.  Same for Mrs. Natural, please pass her my regards.

    -  Thank you for allowing me to demonstrate that it is not necessary to include the entire previous post when quoting.  Enough to simply point out which topics are being referred to is much easier to read.

    -  Thank you also for the factual summary.  It never ceases to amaze me that my radiochemistry prof lived well into his nineties, teaching not only my ignorant young self but years before that the young self of a family friend my father's age ... this in the age of "tickling the dragon's tail."  He outlived his colleagues who ... in the age before fume hoods ... bathed daily in benign materials like benzene, chromium, and so on.

    -  But then again, and you and I have discussed this with some agreement, danger still exists.  There are still hot reactors that have to be managed, if TMI was an example it will be years until the damage will even be fully assessed.  Meantime the same ham-handed knuckleheads will be working on the cleanup ... the same mentality as the "blue glow bucket brigade" to cut corners ... especially with an Olympic deadline (the relevance of this discussion to judo) looming.  We may not agree on the chemistry of the Fukushima reactor explosions, but we probably agree that any future "FOOM!" events will adversely affect all that hotel, real estate and construction stock you bought this morning.

    P.S. ... when the Winter Olympics come around we can have another politically charged discussion about how there may another one ... http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2013/sep/09/climate-change-arctic-sea-ice-delusions
    Actually I thought about you when I looked up the chemistry - cesium hydroxide etches silicon and is used in semiconductor manufacturing.

    Of course there's danger - which is being managed and ameliorated. But clean up will doubtless take decades - if you and I can figure out how to tank all the misguided hot air on the topic and cut that down much at all, we will become very very wealthy, as there are no known shortcuts.

    The contaminated water seeping into the Pacific has tested lower than the very conservative standard for tap water - that's news but gets buried. Any nitwit's misreporting gets front page coverage.

    Oh, well, so it goes.

    NBK

    It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no telling where you might be swept off to.
    - Bilbo Baggins

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    Ricebale

    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:52 pm

    I wouldn't be so quick, Tokyo is a dangerous place



    But Godzilla aside, I'm keen to go there
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Congratulations Tokyo

    Post by BillC on Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:40 am

    You go that right Ricebale!

    Ricebale wrote:I wouldn't be so quick, Tokyo is a dangerous place



    But Godzilla aside, I'm keen to go there
    Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
    Rinji news o moshiagemasu!
    Godzilla ga Ginza hoomen e mukatte imasu!
    Daishkyu hinan shite kudasai!
    Daishkyu hinan shite kudasai!
    (Attention, emergency news!
    Attention, emergency news!
    Godzilla is going toward the Ginza area!
    Immediately escape, catch up, find shelter please!
    Immediately escape, catch up, find shelter please!)

    Oh no, they say he's got to go
    Go go Godzilla, yeah
    Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    Go go Godzilla, yeah

    History shows again and again
    How nature points out the folly of men
    Godzilla!


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

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