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    Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

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    Tranquilo

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    Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Tranquilo on Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:09 am

    I frankly want to start a polemic debate.

    Let's consider these words by Jigoro Kano:

    "In randori we occasionally come up against an opponent who is frantic in his desire to win. We are trained not to resist directly with force but to play with the opponent until his fury and power are exhausted, then attack. This lesson comes in handy when we encounter such a person in daily life. Since no amount of reasoning will have any effect on him, all we can do is wait for him to calm down" (KANO, Jigoro. Kodokan Judo. Tokyo: Kodansha, 1994, p. 23).

    I think that these words above show an interesting philosophical and psychological insight. It links an activity in the dojo, randori practice, with discussions we use to have in daily life.

    Now, let's consider some of the IJF rules about passiveness in fights:

    "To adopt in a standing position, after Kumikata, an excessively defensive posture. (Generally more than 5 seconds).
    [...]
    In a standing position, before or after Kumikata has been established, not to make any attacking moves. [...]" (actions punishable with shido, acording this site: http://www.judopedia.com/index.php/Points_and_Penalties )

    So, could we say that some competion rules go against Kano's words, and against the very philosophical core of Judo?


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    samsmith2424

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by samsmith2424 on Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:20 am

    It is possible to be active without going full out.

    For example one player may be very explosive and strong but we are not. So we could let that player try and attack many times for the first two minutes and then we could attack him. In the first two minutes we would try to be active with the least effort, (say for example leg sweeps rather than big turning throws like seionage).

    Illiadis also tries to wear out Japanese fighters before using O goshi or something similar.
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    BillC

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by BillC on Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:55 am

    Tranquilo wrote:So, could we say that some competion rules go against Kano's words, and against the very philosophical core of Judo?
    Yes.














    Edit ... the "philosophical core" of the rules you quote seem to be "winning" and "excitement." In a word, entertainment. In other words no "philosophical core" at all. Sports don't have a "philosophical core" beyond that. Kano-shihan is buried as an afterthought pages deep on the IJF web site, his goals and principles not even properly exposed, much less front and center. In its place we have someone else, and goals and principles that are quite different from his. No sense complaining about that, the IJF is doing their proper job in the sports entertainment business.


    Last edited by BillC on Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total


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    afulldeck

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:02 am

    BillC wrote:
    Tranquilo wrote:So, could we say that some competion rules go against Kano's words, and against the very philosophical core of Judo?
    Yes.
    & Yes.

    Seems like the polemic is one sided...
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    NBK

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by NBK on Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:41 am

    Interesting dilemma.

    Kano wrote of the three levels of judo, and the competition only seems to apply at the base level.

    The internal matches were meant to showcase progress in technical judo, but it might be an impossible task to apply his thoughts above to regular competition.

    Also, his thoughts, and the rules for judo competition, evolved over time. I am translating what I think to be his last major piece describing the history and purpose of judo, written for a very important audience when he was in his seventies, fully 54 years after he founded the Kodokan, when he was certainly aware of his own mortality as his physical condition deteriorated.

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    Fritz

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Fritz on Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:03 am

    Tranquilo wrote:So, could we say that some competion rules go against Kano's words, and against the very philosophical core of Judo?
    As seen in the world championship, they give penalties to judoka who are active to defend theirself against the attacks of the opponent...
    Thats strange - no defense leads to a score for the attacker, defending leads to a penalty...
    I see no sense in rules leading to these halfhearted attacks because the competitors fear to get the next penalty...


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    Udon

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Udon on Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:09 pm

    NBK, the material you refer to and are currently translating, will you consider making it available to this forum?
    It sounds, from your brief description of it, as though it would be of great value to all judoka.
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    NBK

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by NBK on Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:17 pm

    I'm not sure what I'll do with it - there's nothing striking so far but it's a pretty long piece and I haven't read it all. I may post it here, but there's another Budo project I'm considering that could use it, too. I could post link to it certainly.
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    Udon

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Udon on Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:48 pm

    Thank you.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by nomoremondays on Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:53 am

    ok let me attempt to take a small stab for the other side at the risk of looking like an IJF shill...

    most of the criticism of the ijf is almost usually limited to its contest rules and I am also part of this crowd. Half of us critics are those missing traditional judo and the other half (not saying they are here in this thread) are those worried about judo's utility in some eight-fenced chicken fight. If your world view is narrow enough to be limited to rules its ok but as nbk noted above, isn't the end goal of judo related to social development?
    The IJF has been doing a lot of targeted development work in bringing the joy of sport, teamwork, participation, endeavor and dreams to kids and young adults in far flung areas most of us would never visit or spare a thought for. Villages in Azerbaijan, desolate places in mongolia, favellas in brazil, and maybe even a nervous saudi woman or two.

    Maybe the 'words' and rules are at cross purposes, but are the 'words' and the IJF's progressive social efforts at complete cross purposes from the core? Maybe not by that much and maybe that is more important than simple contest regulations flower
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:37 pm

    nomoremondays wrote:
    The IJF has been doing a lot of targeted development work in bringing the joy of sport, teamwork, participation, endeavor and dreams to kids and young adults in far flung areas most of us would never visit or spare a thought for. Villages in Azerbaijan, desolate places in mongolia, favellas in brazil, and maybe even a nervous saudi woman or two.

    Maybe the 'words' and rules are at cross purposes, but are the 'words' and the IJF's progressive social efforts at complete cross purposes from the core? Maybe not by that much and maybe that is more important than simple contest regulations flower
    But is that really true ? Are you sure this is not more than the jûdôka who goes to the Kôdôkan and who concludes that he has learnt a lot of jûdô there and as proof posts the ubiquitous pictures with himself and a 10th dan as part of the photo sessions which when you see them leave you zero doubt about why most foreigners really are there. Similarly, the IJF on a regular basis pats itself on the shoulder with another picture of Judo for peace, or yet another pseudo-humanitarian initiative. My God, wouldn't you just promptly nominate Vizer for the Peace Nobel Prize ? Why not, we even have a president who without doing anything received one. The only thing still missing are pictures with Vizer and a couple of puppies or holding a baby. Get real, the IJF's major function is laundering illegal monies through a network of Rumenian and Hungarian casino's, tax evasion and other white collar activities behind the facade of being a sports federation, much like it has been since the days of Charlie Palmer. Have you yourself actually ever physically been at the IJF ? Have you or anyone else you know ever benefitted from the IJF ? Is there anything, anything you can honestly say which the IJF realized for you, something that you would never have been able to do without their help, where they made the difference. All the activities you are referring to are political and marketing initiatives with the purpose to advance themselves, 'advance' needing to be understood in terms of even more money. They don't exactly keep little kids from dying in third world countries, they don't build shelters for abused women, they don't drill water wells in little villages in the middle of nowhere. What they do is, allow a small elite of people to travel business class to exotic locations, stay in 5-star hotels, gain many free airmiles, and do what you are supposed to do, that is put your nose on the starfish of another IJF bozo who pulls the strings, and if you do that long enough, then maybe, just maybe you might be invited too to the private parties attended by willing hostesses with Eastern-European accents and fake smiles who leave at 7 am after a quick shower. The IJF is not not unique, of course. The IAAF, the IOC, the continental judo organizations, they're in good company, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours ...

    The irony is, of course, that most of people in the IJF who are in control of judo rarely do any judo and are rarely, if ever, seen in gi. It's like a religious sect, a cult organization.

    The people who do the real work in judo are the teachers in grassroots clubs, the people trying to figure out every month how to make ends meet, the people who pay to the federation but never get anything back and see all of their membership fees go to a couple of federation bozo's to attend activities such as those organized by the IJF and to a few top elite athletes who represent false hope for medals for a couple of years. The people who do the real work in judo, are the teachers who add sense to lives of disabled people on their tatami, who help them convince they are complete people, who devote time to autistic and mentally disabled students, without sparing any effort patiently teaching them how to do ukemi and a couple of simple movements, in this way increasing their motor ability, independence, body control, self-worth, all people who have never received the interest or attention from the IJF and even far less, who ever have received even a dime from the IJF.


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    BillC

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by BillC on Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:46 pm

    I dunno ... Sure-fire Sheldon and Dapper Dave did a great job announcing the recent World Championships ... and they are decent guys one of whom hardly ever mixes beer with nihonshu and on to shochu, then back to nihonshu ... one of them hardly ever decorates the world with an encore presentation of yakiniku afterwards ... Wink Then ... in all seriousness ... he goes back the next night for a serious study of the koshikinokata.

    Life is a whole lot simpler once one decides that judo and European jacket wrestling are different things and when one stops worrying about reconciling the two.  The latter is pursued and supported by dedicated, interesting people and I find it hard to take issue with their hobby.  The world is big enough.

    This even if I read unflattering things on the internet about the people at the helm ... where there is smoke there is certainly fire ...but I find it easy to avoid them as the IJF leadership don't give a rat's ass about me and what I think ... or about anything written here.


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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by nomoremondays on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:29 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:
    The IJF has been doing a lot of targeted development work in bringing the joy of sport, teamwork, participation, endeavor and dreams to kids and young adults in far flung areas most of us would never visit or spare a thought for. Villages in Azerbaijan, desolate places in mongolia, favellas in brazil, and maybe even a nervous saudi woman or two.

    Maybe the 'words' and rules are at cross purposes, but are the 'words' and the IJF's progressive social efforts at complete cross purposes from the core? Maybe not by that much and maybe that is more important than simple contest regulations flower
    But is that really true ?  Are you sure this is not more than the jûdôka who goes to the Kôdôkan and who concludes that he has learnt a lot of jûdô there and as proof posts the ubiquitous pictures with himself and a 10th dan as part of the photo sessions which when you see them leave you zero doubt about why most foreigners really are there. Similarly, the IJF on a regular basis pats itself on the shoulder with another picture of Judo for peace, or yet another pseudo-humanitarian initiative. My God, wouldn't you just promptly nominate Vizer for the Peace Nobel Prize ?  Why not, we even have a president who without doing anything received one. The only thing still missing are pictures with Vizer and a couple of puppies or holding a baby. Get real, the IJF's major function is laundering illegal monies through a network of Rumenian and Hungarian casino's, tax evasion and other white collar activities behind the facade of being a sports federation, much like it has been since the days of Charlie Palmer. Have you yourself actually ever physically been at the IJF ?  Have you or anyone else you know ever benefitted from the IJF ?  Is there anything, anything you can honestly say which the IJF realized for you, something that you would never have been able to do without their help, where they made the difference. All the activities you are referring to are political and marketing initiatives with the purpose to advance themselves, 'advance' needing to be understood in terms of even more money. They don't exactly keep little kids from dying in third world countries, they don't build shelters for abused women, they don't drill water wells in little villages in the middle of nowhere. What they do is, allow a small elite of people to travel business class to exotic locations, stay in 5-star hotels, gain many free airmiles, and do what you are supposed to do, that is put your nose on the starfish of another IJF bozo who pulls the strings, and if you do that long enough, then maybe, just maybe you might be invited too to the private parties attended by willing hostesses with Eastern-European accents and fake smiles who leave at 7 am after a quick shower. The IJF is not not unique, of course. The IAAF, the IOC, the continental judo organizations, they're in good company, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours ...

    The irony is, of course, that most of people in the IJF who are in control of judo rarely do any judo and are rarely, if ever, seen in gi. It's like a religious sect, a cult organization.

    The people who do the real work in judo are the teachers in grassroots clubs, the people trying to figure out every month how to make ends meet, the people who pay to the federation but never get anything back and see all of their membership fees go to a couple of federation bozo's to attend activities such as those organized by the IJF and to a few top elite athletes who represent false hope for medals for a couple of years. The people who do the real work in judo, are the teachers who add sense to lives of disabled people on their tatami, who help them convince they are complete people, who devote time to autistic and mentally disabled students, without sparing any effort patiently teaching them how to do ukemi and a couple of simple movements, in this way increasing their motor ability, independence, body control, self-worth, all people who have never received the interest or attention from the IJF and even far less, who ever have received even a dime from the IJF.
    Grassroot work can be done outside the support of federations. I ran classes for free without the support of a federation. It was not something i expected anything back from. I suppose I did it because i had nothing else to do in my free time lol.  I don't involve myself in that anymore because I quickly figured I wasn't a good teacher.

    I don't think I went as far as saying the ijf deserves a nobel prize for saving orphans from burning buildings but it does legitimize all these other national federations.  I guess in the end the ijf, the federtions  and by extension its athletes are mostly photo-ops like you said and entertainment as was mentioned above. But I think for each photo-op there is probably one kid growing up with stars in his eyes.  last time i was at the kodokan i met a mongolian kid there who was living in tokyo because he was fascinated by judo and the glamor of the olympics and was being funded somehow by his org.
    I didn't have stars in my eyes and also I was a bit lazy and disenchanted  but I got to do a little bit of college free because of judo. I don't think my sport federation would have supported me that way if the national judo federations existence was not legitimised in some fashion by an international organization like the ijf. Was it something i desperately needed, nope, in fact I did not even finish.  But as the apex organization of its sports i think its doing enough as a bureacratic sports organization and working as all such organizations do - taking from most and giving to a few.  
    In regards to crime and criminals in judo, they exist at the top of the totem pole as well as in the grassroots. Why go there? bom 

    Frankly I think we make too much of contest rules. If a kid can be inspired by  a pin-up of his favorite player I am ok with sacrificing a leg grab or two at the highest level of the game.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:38 pm

    nomoremondays wrote:
    Grassroot work can be done outside the support of federations. I ran classes for free without the support of a federation. It was not something i expected anything back from. I suppose I did it because i had nothing else to do in my free time lol.  I don't involve myself in that anymore because I quickly figured I wasn't a good teacher.

    I don't think I went as far as saying the ijf deserves a nobel prize for saving orphans from burning buildings but it does legitimize all these other national federations.  I guess in the end the ijf, the federtions  and by extension its athletes are mostly photo-ops like you said and entertainment as was mentioned above. But I think for each photo-op there is probably one kid growing up with stars in his eyes.  last time i was at the kodokan i met a mongolian kid there who was living in tokyo because he was fascinated by judo and the glamor of the olympics and was being funded somehow by his org.
    I didn't have stars in my eyes and also I was a bit lazy and disenchanted  but I got to do a little bit of college free because of judo. I don't think my sport federation would have supported me that way if the national judo federations existence was not legitimised in some fashion by an international organization like the ijf. Was it something i desperately needed, nope, in fact I did not even finish.  But as the apex organization of its sports i think its doing enough as a bureacratic sports organization and working as all such organizations do - taking from most and giving to a few.  
    In regards to crime and criminals in judo, they exist at the top of the totem pole as well as in the grassroots. Why go there? bom 

    Frankly I think we make too much of contest rules. If a kid can be inspired by  a pin-up of his favorite player I am ok with sacrificing a leg grab or two at the highest level of the game.
    You are right that grassroot work CAN be done outside the support of federations, but that really wasn't my point. It's not that it can't be done, it's that those people are the ones who often do most to realize what judo is, dedicated idealists who work their butt off.

    No, you did not suggest that the IJF deserved a Nobel Prize. I was making a caricature, to say, let's not exaggerate. Who wouldn't be willing to fly business class to some Third World country, stay in a 5-star hotel, get an extensive tour, and pose for picture with couple of kids with big smiles, and put a caption on there about how judo supposedly has enriched their lives. They're still hungry, still don't go to school, can't read or write, have insufficient foods and proteins and can die every day from a for us failry innocent disease due to lack of antibiotics and hygiene.

    Of course, crime exists anywhere, and that wasn't really my point either. Nobody's perfect, we all have our flaws. This isn't about someone in the IJF possibly claiming back $10 too much for fuel. I was specifically referring to "organized crime", like mafia. That's something quite different, I think. I am referring to things like this (this is not about the IJF specifically though):

    http://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nato.hacettepe.edu.tr%2Fnato%2FNato%2FPapers%2FKupatadze.Rev1.pdf&ei=RpYyUsCfEKPG7AbcwID4Aw&usg=AFQjCNEBkShkFAmtJdBOuhs2L6dC9nbLbg&bvm=bv.52164340,d.ZGU


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    Jihef

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Jihef on Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:45 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:The only thing still missing are pictures with Vizer and a couple of puppies or holding a baby. Get real, the IJF's major function is laundering illegal monies through a network of Rumenian and Hungarian casino's, tax evasion and other white collar activities behind the facade of being a sports federation, much like it has been since the days of Charlie Palmer.
    Funny you should mention that. There is very little information to be found about this.

    A couple of years ago, I spent some time working with someone from Budapest. One day after work, we had a beer and got into casual conversation, getting to know each other.
    When he learned I practiced judo, he chuckled and told me he came from the same Romanian town as Marius Vizer, whom he called the local mob boss !
    I was pretty much surprised, but it seems common knowledge for Romanians and Hungarians that there is much more about M. Vizer than judo…

    Shady guy to say the least.
    affraid
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    Davaro

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Davaro on Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:48 pm

    And some question why CK choses to remain anon...

    Ouch! scathing but very probable comments. Makes one think.

    I teach in the poorest of the poor areas in my country and have seen, in the last 10 years a single Tatami that supposedly came from the IJF.

    A Judo for peace event held here in the not to distant past had all sorts of IJF bigwigs here posing with the poor little kids.

    The only difference is now they are not that little anymore.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:28 am

    Tranquilo wrote:I frankly want to start a polemic debate.

    Let's consider these words by Jigoro Kano:

    "In randori we occasionally come up against an opponent who is frantic in his desire to win. We are trained not to resist directly with force but to play with the opponent until his fury and power are exhausted, then attack. This lesson comes in handy when we encounter such a person in daily life. Since no amount of reasoning will have any effect on him, all we can do is wait for him to calm down" (KANO, Jigoro. Kodokan Judo. Tokyo: Kodansha, 1994, p. 23).

    I think that these words above show an interesting philosophical and psychological insight. It links an activity in the dojo, randori practice, with discussions we use to have in daily life.

    Now, let's consider some of the IJF rules about passiveness in fights:

    "To adopt in a standing position, after Kumikata, an excessively defensive posture. (Generally more than 5 seconds).
    [...]
    In a standing position, before or after Kumikata has been established, not to make any attacking moves. [...]" (actions punishable with shido, acording this site: http://www.judopedia.com/index.php/Points_and_Penalties )

    So, could we say that some competition rules go against Kano's words, and against the very philosophical core of Judo?
    No, not at all. You've quoted the rules out of context and with no mention of how they are applied in judo competition. Plus, randori is not shiai. Also, what you quote of Kano is not "the very philosphical core of Judo".

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    BillC

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by BillC on Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:44 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote: Also, what you quote of Kano is not  "the very philosphical core of Judo".

    Good thing to point out ... strategy versus tactics ... and that sort of thing.


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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Jigoro Kano words vs modern Judo rules

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:45 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    I was specifically referring to "organized crime", like mafia. That's something quite different, I think. I am referring to things like this (this is not about the IJF specifically though):

    http://www.google.be/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nato.hacettepe.edu.tr%2Fnato%2FNato%2FPapers%2FKupatadze.Rev1.pdf&ei=RpYyUsCfEKPG7AbcwID4Aw&usg=AFQjCNEBkShkFAmtJdBOuhs2L6dC9nbLbg&bvm=bv.52164340,d.ZGU
    Fair enough.
    This is slightly different direction than I was going. Yes I am familiar with the mafia nexus not just in judo but in global world sport. You mention the romanians, hungarians, cite a paper on georgians, all bit players but left out the main protaganist behind all this - putin.

    Yes I'm aware how the entire olympics was saved and the IOC run by the KGB through Samaranch,
    ( http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/sport/1061287/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/sport/1061287/%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D686)
    how the russian 'vors' and mafia were placated by giving them a legal out through sports way back in the 90's, the friendships between vizer, putin, sheikh al sabah and all the petro dollars involved,  how mamiashvili conspired recently to get the serbian as the head of FILA etc etc This has probably engulfed all sports you can think of soccer, wrestling, ice skating...

    This is depressing stuff, but kids around the world are still tossing a ball round, running around, dreaming of the olympics.

    btw wait till SportAccord supersedes the Olympics and all non-mafia bloc sports are out. The fun will begin then.

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      Current date/time is Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:22 am