E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Share

    gester

    Posts : 47
    Join date : 2013-02-07

    Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by gester on Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:57 pm

    Members of USA Judo, USJF and the USJA can apply for Kodokan rank. I recently did this and thought it would be informative to post the mechanics involved.

    This post is to provide information and not to restart the discussion from the "old site" as to the merits of registering with one or another organization.

    step 1. Earn a Black Belt.  
                                                                                                             
    step 2. Contact the Kodokan Committee via links at Cranford Judo and Karate Center    cranfordjkc.com . The page has links for "Kodokan Information".  To follow the links click on the dot next to the writing.

    step 3. Follow the directions on eligibility, fill out the form, and send $20.00.

    step 4. If appproved you'll receive a letter with directions and fees needed to have the approval sent to the Kodokan for it's approval. (It took about a week to receive the letter)

    step 5. Send the form and fees back to the US Kodokan Committee.
    The fees were :
    Certificate Fee $72
    Enrollment Fee $93
    Packaging & Postage $42
    Bank Charge $40
    For a total of $247.
    (The prices may vary based on the dollar/yen exchange rate.)

    step 6. The check cleared in about 4 weeks and in about another 6 weeks the certificate and a Kodokan Membership card arrived in a sturdy mailing tube that needed to be signed for.

      (The process started when I sent in my application on 5/8 and ended when I receive the certificate on 8/4.)

    Step 7. Mount and enjoy knowing that you are now listed with the great judoka from the beginning of judo to now!

    Regards,
    Gester


    Last edited by gester on Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:02 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : edited to correct typos)
    avatar
    Allen

    Posts : 22
    Join date : 2013-01-25
    Location : Spokane, WA

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Allen on Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:03 am

    Thank you for this; I'm not there yet but this will be very handy when it is time. Smile
    avatar
    Neil G

    Posts : 117
    Join date : 2013-01-23
    Age : 57
    Location : Saskatoon, SK, Canada

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Neil G on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:58 am

    Not sure if this applies to US judoka, but here in Canada I was informed that if I wanted Kodokan rank I had to start with shodan, ie I could not change my mind and apply starting from nidan or higher.
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1248
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by NBK on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:11 am

    I once analyzed the Kodokan budget. Like most such organizations, a large percentage of its annual income is derived from promotions. I would think that Uemura kancho has his eye on the finances, as the institute seemingly lost money for years, and has rationalized some budget issues.

    And I would expect that there is some of the expenses allocated to the US KDK Committee, too. Same as in Japan: the intermediate organizations also get some of the fees back for their local use.

    The website http://www.cranfordjkc.com/Kodokan_Rank.htm
    seems out of date, I guess, but here's the original US Kodokan Committee and as of 2009:
    Original Committee Members -1982 � Committee Members - 2009
    Takahiko Ishikawa � Keiko Fukuda
    Yasuyuki Sakabe � James Onchi
    Ben Campbell � Leo White
    Mits Kimura � George Harris
    Sachio Ashida � Ben Campbell
    George Harris � Yoshisada Yonezuka (Chairman)
    Henry Okamura � Michael Swain
    Don Kikuchi � Sumikichi Nozaki
    Yoshisada Yonezuka (Chairman) � Mamoru Shimamoto
    Keiko Fukuda � �
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 858
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:54 pm

    Neil G wrote:Not sure if this applies to US judoka, but here in Canada I was informed that if I wanted Kodokan rank I had to start with shodan, ie I could not change my mind and apply starting from nidan or higher.
    Just a suggestion, but maybe you might want to start a different thread on this, as original poster specifically indicated --and for good reason-- that this thread was solely about US Kodokan rank application, not those of any other country.

    The issue you are raising is, by the way, dealt with by Yonezuka-sensei in the documentation, as a general rule. At the end of the day, the Kodokan autonomously decides what they will do. That is why those applications are not dealt with at the Kodokan by a promotion committee but by the Kodokan Deliberation Council. They can decided whatever they want, and remains on a case by case basis that is governed by rules, but also by precedent.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 858
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:57 pm

    NBK wrote:I once analyzed the Kodokan budget.  Like most such organizations, a large percentage of its annual income is derived from promotions.  I would think that Uemura kancho has his eye on the finances, as the institute seemingly lost money for years, and has rationalized some budget issues.

    And I would expect that there is some of the expenses allocated to the US KDK Committee, too.  Same as in Japan: the intermediate organizations also get some of the fees back for their local use.  

    The website http://www.cranfordjkc.com/Kodokan_Rank.htm
    seems out of date, I guess, but here's the original US Kodokan Committee and as of 2009:
    Original Committee Members -1982 � Committee Members - 2009
    Takahiko Ishikawa � Keiko Fukuda
    Yasuyuki Sakabe � James Onchi
    Ben Campbell � Leo White
    Mits Kimura � George Harris
    Sachio Ashida � Ben Campbell
    George Harris � Yoshisada Yonezuka (Chairman)
    Henry Okamura � Michael Swain
    Don Kikuchi � Sumikichi Nozaki
    Yoshisada Yonezuka (Chairman) � Mamoru Shimamoto
    Keiko Fukuda � �
    Even of the 2009 Committee as you quote it, at least 3 are dead, RIP.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    Neil G

    Posts : 117
    Join date : 2013-01-23
    Age : 57
    Location : Saskatoon, SK, Canada

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Neil G on Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:38 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Just a suggestion, but maybe you might want to start a different thread on this, as original poster specifically indicated  --and for good reason--  that this thread was solely about US Kodokan rank application, not those of any other country.
    Maybe I phrased that poorly - was simply curious if it was also the case in the US that you had to apply at shodan. I was under the impression this was a Kodokan rule.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Hanon on Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:55 am

    gester wrote:Members of USA Judo, USJF and the USJA can apply for Kodokan rank. I recently did this and thought it would be informative to post the mechanics involved.

    This post is to provide information and not to restart the discussion from the "old site" as to the merits of registering with one or another organization.

    step 1. Earn a Black Belt.  
                                                                                                             
    step 2. Contact the Kodokan Committee via links at Cranford Judo and Karate Center    cranfordjkc.com . The page has links for "Kodokan Information".  To follow the links click on the dot next to the writing.

    step 3. Follow the directions on eligibility, fill out the form, and send $20.00.

    step 4. If appproved you'll receive a letter with directions and fees needed to have the approval sent to the Kodokan for it's approval. (It took about a week to receive the letter)

    step 5. Send the form and fees back to the US Kodokan Committee.
    The fees were :
    Certificate Fee $72
    Enrollment Fee $93
    Packaging & Postage $42
    Bank Charge $40
    For a total of $247.
    (The prices may vary based on the dollar/yen exchange rate.)

    step 6. The check cleared in about 4 weeks and in about another 6 weeks the certificate and a Kodokan Membership card arrived in a sturdy mailing tube that needed to be signed for.

      (The process started when I sent in my application on 5/8 and ended when I receive the certificate on 8/4.)

    Step 7. Mount and enjoy knowing that you are now listed with the great judoka from the beginning of judo to now!

    Regards,
    Gester
    Hi Gester.

    Several point for you to consider.

    Grab a coffee. I waffle. When a child-teenager all I wanted to do was go to the kodokan. It was a dream of mine to actually speak with Kudo kazuzo sensei and thank him. That's another story.

    Dan grades in Europe where as rare as rocking horse woopsie. Most club coaches where either blue or brown obi. A dan rank was simply a God. Now a Kodokan dan grade didn't just drink water he or she walked on it (this was the myth and illusion). This was the vision, at least, I had in my mind. Kodokan dan ranks are the real dan ranks and we sho and ni dans where just playing judo.

    Reality check came for me in the very early 70's when I first visited the Kodokan. In terms of their shi, ni and san dans we absolutely played with most of them like we would juniors..There was a reason for that most of them where youngsters. Having said that even people our own age of the same rank seemed so poor in randori? Now when we partnered with fellow Europeans we found our match but not with the Japanese.

    I learned about the true education of the rank system in judo. it was not the Japanese who had lowered the standard it was the Europeans who had made a dan rank almost impossible to achieve. The reason for this was a total lack of understanding the dan ranks are the beginning and not the end.

    Here is my point. In terms of European dan ranks they hold at the lower ranks a greater value than those at the Kodokan. To that end unless you are looking at a serious rank like 6th dan and above why would you pay the Kodokan 247.00$ For a certificate that in reality is almost a demotion?
    The Kodokan is built on rank fees, donations and sales, not membership fees. If you have 250$ to use I would think very hard about several things. perhaps help your own dojo with a donation? Perhaps help your own area yudanshakai with a donation? Maybe donate to your federation? You could even make real use of that cash and donate it to a hospice for children or another charity of your choice.

    The Kodokan, like it or not, is as corrupt (if not more) than most federations we belong to. This begs the question to me, why would I desire to send the kodokan money and to what end?

    Your rank is recognised by a legal association and within that group you are ranked at a given level. I can assure you a kodokan sho dan may be no match for you in terms of judo education nor physical ability. Please understand I write about the lower dan ranks. There did come a time when their higher ranks where superior in most areas of judo but even that is now passing. Yet again another story!

    Don't make the same mistakes I did and hold the Kodokan in some sort of higher light as a beacon for judo and high standards. It has never been that not even in the days when Kano Shihan walked the dojo. That again is another story

    Be proud of your rank and from where you received it. I am not saying you do but if you need a kodokan sho dan to feel a sho dan rather than one from your own NGB then you are actually doing yourself a down grade!

    There is zero wrong with holding a kodokan sho dan but its not the panacea you think it is. Just food for thought. I sincerely respect you can and should do what you desire with your hard earned cash.thumbs 

    Kind regards,

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    avatar
    Steve Leadbeater

    Posts : 199
    Join date : 2013-02-26
    Age : 62
    Location : Sydney Australia

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:14 am

    Wow, Mike Sensei, that sort of puts a dampener on my desire to hang a Kodokan Certificate on the wall in my home office.

    I have saved up some of my "hard earned" and kept it aside just for this purpose, even though I know the Kodokan is really..... "just another Judo club, based in Tokyo".... but in my eyes that certificate on the wall will make my friends green with envy when they see it.......and that is the aim !! Very Happy Very Happy 
    avatar
    Udon

    Posts : 158
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Location : Minnesota

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Udon on Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:50 am

    Hanon Sensei,I'm sure what you said in your post is true.
    I find it very depressing.
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 858
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:26 pm



    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    Udon

    Posts : 158
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Location : Minnesota

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Udon on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:30 pm

    Now that, CK Sensei, is very funny. Thanks
    avatar
    Neil G

    Posts : 117
    Join date : 2013-01-23
    Age : 57
    Location : Saskatoon, SK, Canada

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Neil G on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:31 pm

    Udon wrote:Hanon Sensei,I'm sure what you said in your post is true.
    I find it very depressing.
    Not sure what's depressing about it. The Japanese view of dan is simply much less awe-inspired than the western one. If you ever intend on visiting Japan and practicing at the Kodokan, you need membership AFAIK, that's the main reason to pony up the bucks.
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 858
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:17 pm

    Udon wrote:Now that, CK Sensei, is very funny. Thanks
    Actually, what is funny is the number that have been sold. In other words that means people are actually buying these.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    gester

    Posts : 47
    Join date : 2013-02-07

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by gester on Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:36 pm

    gester wrote:

    This post is to provide information and not to restart the discussion from the "old site" as to the merits of registering with one or another organization.

    Hanon,

    Your response is exactly what I wanted to avoid.

    Oh well, can't have everything. Smile 

    Regards,
    Gester

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Hanon on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:25 am

    gester wrote:
    gester wrote:

    This post is to provide information and not to restart the discussion from the "old site" as to the merits of registering with one or another organization.

    Hanon,

    Your response is exactly what I wanted to avoid.

    Oh well, can't have everything. Smile 

    Regards,
    Gester
    Hi Gester,

    You would need to elaborate on that for it to be meaningful? What did I write that you wished to be avoided?Shocked 

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Hanon on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:36 am

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Wow, Mike Sensei, that sort of puts a dampener on my desire to hang a Kodokan Certificate on the wall in my home office.

    I have saved up some of my "hard earned" and kept it aside just for this purpose, even though I know the Kodokan is really..... "just another Judo club, based in Tokyo".... but in my eyes that certificate on the wall will make my friends green with envy when they see it.......and that is the aim !!    Very Happy Very Happy 
    Hiya,

    How is your health? Are you looking after yourself?

    We must all make choices about what we hang on our walls etc. I respect your point of view. To me any certificate I had not earned at the said dojo would be worthless to me. I do not hold a Kodokan grade so possessing a certificate would mean what? It would merely be a piece of paper with no real Budo value to it? The real value in our rank is with our judo and who graded us, how we teach and what ranks we are able to produce as our pupils.
    Unless we take a kodokan exam in the kodokan dojo with kodokan examiners how can we really say we are a kodokan rank? Perhaps I am missing the point/

    I shall have more words with you if I find you are not looking after yourself young man!Twisted Evil  A certificate of good health on your wall is what I would love to see. I bet your family feel the same....goodjob 

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    avatar
    Jonesy

    Posts : 1048
    Join date : 2013-01-02

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:01 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Wow, Mike Sensei, that sort of puts a dampener on my desire to hang a Kodokan Certificate on the wall in my home office.

    I have saved up some of my "hard earned" and kept it aside just for this purpose, even though I know the Kodokan is really..... "just another Judo club, based in Tokyo".... but in my eyes that certificate on the wall will make my friends green with envy when they see it.......and that is the aim !!    Very Happy Very Happy 
    Hiya,

    How is your health? Are you looking after yourself?

    We must all make choices about what we hang on our walls etc. I respect your point of view. To me any certificate I had not earned at the said dojo would be worthless to me. I do not hold a Kodokan grade so possessing a certificate would mean what? It would merely be a piece of paper with no real Budo value to it? The real value in our rank is with our judo and who graded us, how we teach and what ranks we are able to produce as our pupils.
    Unless we take a kodokan exam in the kodokan dojo with kodokan examiners how can we really say we are a kodokan rank? Perhaps I am missing the point/

    I shall have more words with you if I find you are not looking after yourself young man!Twisted Evil  A certificate of good health on your wall is what I would love to see. I bet your family feel the same....goodjob 

    Mike
    I think we have to be very pragmatic on this issue.  The overwhelming majority of Japanese judoka have Kodokan rank certificates.  The majority of these judoka have never set foot in the Kodokan, nor been examined by Kodokan examiners.  All over Japan, the examinations are conducted by the Prefectural Judo Associations acting under devolved authority. How do we regard these grades?

    Moreover, the Aikiai, the JKA (Japan Karate Association) and the ZNKR (All Japan Kendo Federation) all issue certificates to international aikidoka, karateka and kendoka as a matter of course to students all over the world who have never set foot in their honbu dojo.  Is this a problem?
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1248
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by NBK on Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:31 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    I think we have to be very pragmatic on this issue.  The overwhelming majority of Japanese judoka have Kodokan rank certificates.  The majority of these judoka have never set foot in the Kodokan, nor been examined by Kodokan examiners.  All over Japan, the examinations are conducted by the Prefectural Judo Associations acting under devolved authority. How do we regard these grades?

    Moreover, the Aikiai, the JKA (Japan Karate Association) and the ZNKR (All Japan Kendo Federation) all issue certificates to international aikidoka, karateka and kendoka as a matter of course to students all over the world who have never set foot in their honbu dojo.  Is this a problem?
    Jonesy is right - I practice with a 5 dan who has literally never set foot in the Kodokan - and he works less than 5 minutes from the place. It's simply not his 'dojo', and he's not interested.

    The Kodokan sits astride a large number of judo organizations. It has delegated promotion authority to its member organizations.

    IIRC the promotions go:
    1-3 dan - major city judo federations (e.g., Sapporo, Sendai, Fukuoka, or their equivalent in 'wards' (cities) inside Tokyo, such as Minato-ku, Sumida-ku)

    4-5 dan - Prefectural judo organizations (e.g., Chiba Prefecture, Saitama Prefecture) or the major city judo federations (Tokyo, Osaka)

    6 dan and above - centralized at the Kodokan. There are traveling teams that go to the prefectures time to time to verify kata skills.

    The students' federations' promotion authority goes to a lower level. There is a youth federation and a separate collegiate federation.

    The police have their own promotion authority and exercise it pretty liberally, but I think max out at a handful of 8 dans who run the whole thing. They have dojo everywhere - substations, prisons, training schools. Once they retire they have to transfer their rank to the Kodokan or it is not recognized separately and will lapse. A big traffic cop once told me that their impression was that rank in the Kodokan was a lot harder to attain than in the police system.

    The military doesn't teach judo officially since WWII - some bases have judo clubs that belong to the local prefecture or city. I am not actually sure to what federation the National Defense University judo team belongs - probably collegiate student federation. Will ask.

    But Jonesy's point is that there are literally thousands promoted every year in Japan who are Kodokan members and get Kodokan rank, may practice for decades, and never set foot in the place. Their names will be posted in Judo mag - as has mine for every promotion - like Kano shihan did since the early 1900's. That's normal in Japan.

    NBK
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 858
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:14 am

    NBK wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    I think we have to be very pragmatic on this issue.  The overwhelming majority of Japanese judoka have Kodokan rank certificates.  The majority of these judoka have never set foot in the Kodokan, nor been examined by Kodokan examiners.  All over Japan, the examinations are conducted by the Prefectural Judo Associations acting under devolved authority. How do we regard these grades?

    Moreover, the Aikiai, the JKA (Japan Karate Association) and the ZNKR (All Japan Kendo Federation) all issue certificates to international aikidoka, karateka and kendoka as a matter of course to students all over the world who have never set foot in their honbu dojo.  Is this a problem?
    Jonesy is right - I practice with a 5 dan who has literally never set foot in the Kodokan - and he works less than 5 minutes from the place. It's simply not his 'dojo', and he's not interested.  

    The Kodokan sits astride a large number of judo organizations.  It has delegated promotion authority to its member organizations.

    IIRC the promotions go:
    1-3 dan  - major city judo federations (e.g., Sapporo, Sendai, Fukuoka, or their equivalent in 'wards' (cities) inside Tokyo, such as Minato-ku, Sumida-ku)

    4-5 dan - Prefectural judo organizations (e.g., Chiba Prefecture, Saitama Prefecture) or the major city judo federations (Tokyo, Osaka)

    6 dan and above - centralized at the Kodokan.  There are traveling teams that go to the prefectures time to time to verify kata skills.

    The students' federations' promotion authority goes to a lower level.  There is a youth federation and a separate collegiate federation.  

    The police have their own promotion authority and exercise it pretty liberally, but I think max out at a handful of 8 dans who run the whole thing.  They have dojo everywhere - substations, prisons, training schools.  Once they retire they have to transfer their rank to the Kodokan or it is not recognized separately and will lapse.   A big traffic cop once told me that their impression was that rank in the Kodokan was a lot harder to attain than in the police system.  

    The military doesn't teach judo officially since WWII - some bases have judo clubs that belong to the local prefecture or city.  I am not actually sure to what federation the National Defense University judo team belongs - probably collegiate student federation.  Will ask.

    But Jonesy's point is that there are literally thousands promoted every year in Japan who are Kodokan members and get Kodokan rank, may practice for decades, and never set foot in the place.  Their names will be posted in Judo mag - as has mine for every promotion - like Kano shihan did since the early 1900's.  That's normal in Japan.  

    NBK
    Let's not forget that Judoforum rank is handed out internationally, though I never received my rank certificate ... Scheisse santa 


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    Neil G

    Posts : 117
    Join date : 2013-01-23
    Age : 57
    Location : Saskatoon, SK, Canada

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Neil G on Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:01 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Moreover, the Aikiai, the JKA (Japan Karate Association) and the ZNKR (All Japan Kendo Federation) all issue certificates to international aikidoka, karateka and kendoka as a matter of course to students all over the world who have never set foot in their honbu dojo.  Is this a problem?
    ZNKR does not issue certificates to foreign kendoka unless they physically grade under them.  All FIK countries recognize each other's ranks.  There's no ZNKR "honbu". I deal with this stuff all the time in my capacity as CKF secretary.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Hanon on Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:14 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Steve Leadbeater wrote:Wow, Mike Sensei, that sort of puts a dampener on my desire to hang a Kodokan Certificate on the wall in my home office.

    I have saved up some of my "hard earned" and kept it aside just for this purpose, even though I know the Kodokan is really..... "just another Judo club, based in Tokyo".... but in my eyes that certificate on the wall will make my friends green with envy when they see it.......and that is the aim !!    Very Happy Very Happy 
    Hiya,

    How is your health? Are you looking after yourself?

    We must all make choices about what we hang on our walls etc. I respect your point of view. To me any certificate I had not earned at the said dojo would be worthless to me. I do not hold a Kodokan grade so possessing a certificate would mean what? It would merely be a piece of paper with no real Budo value to it? The real value in our rank is with our judo and who graded us, how we teach and what ranks we are able to produce as our pupils.
    Unless we take a kodokan exam in the kodokan dojo with kodokan examiners how can we really say we are a kodokan rank? Perhaps I am missing the point/

    I shall have more words with you if I find you are not looking after yourself young man!Twisted Evil  A certificate of good health on your wall is what I would love to see. I bet your family feel the same....goodjob 

    Mike
    I think we have to be very pragmatic on this issue.  The overwhelming majority of Japanese judoka have Kodokan rank certificates.  The majority of these judoka have never set foot in the Kodokan, nor been examined by Kodokan examiners.  All over Japan, the examinations are conducted by the Prefectural Judo Associations acting under devolved authority. How do we regard these grades?

    Moreover, the Aikiai, the JKA (Japan Karate Association) and the ZNKR (All Japan Kendo Federation) all issue certificates to international aikidoka, karateka and kendoka as a matter of course to students all over the world who have never set foot in their honbu dojo.  Is this a problem?
    Hiya,

    How's things with you? Mt reply to the OP was a sincere reply posing the question of value re certificate. I have absolutely zero problem with any one on the earth wearing any obi they wear, and rank they claim and any certificate they place on their wall. I have more certificates than you have in years and have never taken them out of the draw. Very few of those certificates mean something to me.

    If any person desires to pay any association, club, federation or sensei their cash to be given a certificate it s absolutely their affair and is not even open for debate. My Only desire in replying to the OP was to sort of think outside the box.

    As a personal point of view I cannot see the point in holding a kodokan dan rank certificate if I don't hold a kodokan rank. To me to hold a kodokan rank means I have actually been to the Kodokan, received lessons, taken part in the structure toward said exam and sat said exam in front of kodokan examiners. PLEASE do remember my age I am a dinosaur and what I hold dear to me will not be shared by others. Example: for ikyu I performed the randori no kata. That is how far back I go?

    In the world of academia to the best of my knowledge neither of us could apply to Oxford for our certificates in our given subjects as we didn't study at Oxford? Maybe I am even wrong in that, I don't know?

    One question. if it is as simple as sending money to the Kodokan to receive a certificate of dan rank of what moral value does that certificate have?
    I would also feel it rather disingenuous to the person and federation, or whatever, who did examine me. I do accept 100% that these are my feelings and are not law!

    I would never dream of calling myself a kodokan dan rank. I am not.

    Keep well,

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 858
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:52 am

    Hanon wrote:

    How's things with you? Mt reply to the OP was a sincere reply posing the question of value re certificate. I have absolutely zero problem with any one on the earth wearing any obi they wear, and rank they claim and any certificate they place on their wall. I have more certificates than you have in years and have never taken them out of the draw.  Very few of those certificates mean something to me.

    If any person desires to pay any association, club, federation or sensei their cash to be given a certificate it s absolutely their affair and is not even open for debate. My Only desire in replying to the OP was to sort of think outside the box.

    As a personal point of view I cannot see the point in holding a kodokan dan rank certificate if I don't hold a kodokan rank. To me to hold a kodokan rank means I have actually been to the Kodokan, received lessons, taken part in the structure toward said exam and sat said exam in front of kodokan examiners. PLEASE do remember my age I am a dinosaur and what I hold dear to me will not be shared by others. Example: for ikyu I performed the randori no kata. That is how far back I go?

    In the world of academia to the best of my knowledge neither of us could apply to Oxford for our certificates in our given subjects as we didn't study at Oxford? Maybe I am even wrong in that, I don't know?

    One question. if it is as simple as sending money to the Kodokan to receive a certificate of dan rank of what moral value does that certificate have?
    I would also feel it rather disingenuous to the person and federation, or whatever, who did examine me. I do accept 100% that these are my feelings and are not law!

    I would never dream of calling myself a kodokan dan rank. I am not.

    Keep well,

    Mike
    It's sometimes hard to see the wood for the threes due to distinctively different cultures, and just like judoka aren't very willing to read and learn, they aren't very willing to understand the situation from where someone is coming. When I first came to the US and joined a club, my sensei after some time promoted me to the same rank I was already holding abroad. That made sense. After several months I left and obviously continued training, teaching, attending clinics and living in various other countries. Thus when I returned many years later, my sensei couldn't just promote me to the rank I had by that time obtained during all those years abroad since it exceeded his authority. He said that to recommend me to the national promotion committee, he would need my rank certificate. I said: "my what ?"  "Rank certificate" ? I had basically never heard or seen someone with a rank certificate in jûdô. Well, that is to say, I had once a long time ago in my home country seen an advertisement in the magazine of our national federation for Kodokan certificates, but I had never known or heard about anyone starting that procedures. It was very expensive, and obscure. The normal procedure like virtually everywhere else that I had seen was that when you do a shôdan shiken (dan rank exam), your new rank was simply signed off on your license, and later when you received your next license it was printed on there. That was it. I was one of the few who also had applied for a judo passport, so I had that too with my ranks signed off, and I also had a rank card (neither the passport nor the rank card were mandatory and most other people did not have these). Anyhow, where the heck would I get a "rank certificate" ?  Where the heck would ANYBODY get a "rank certificate", which essentially was a kind of document that did not exist in our culture and countries. Did we get one in Japan ?  Well, when I did my rank exam and was announced as "passed" I did what anyone would have done in our country and most countries I knew of, that is to hand over my license and rank card and passport to the administrator or chair of the exam board and have the rank signed off. I never asked for a rank certificate not even knowing such a thing existed, not inquiring if such was standard procedure, and thus not anticipating that maybe there was a local address we should have left for such a certificate to arrive later. I left Japan within days after, and never came back to my dôjô or met my sensei since. Anyhow, when I then got to a country where apparently anyone has these dramatic "rank certificates" nicely framed upon a wall, without me having any idea how they got them or what they had to do for those, it's even strange when you start perceiving that they actually think that this is how the situation is elsewhere and that we have or even "should have" such "rank certificates" too. In the end, my US sensei told me that the easiest way forward for me would be to obtain a Kôdôkan rank certificate.

    So that is how I came in contact with this "Kôdôkan certificate" thing. I had no idea how to get it. The advertisement I had seen in a magazine in my country, dated back from the days I was a lowly kyû grade decades earier. I also knew that a long time ago, before obtaining shodan, nationally it had been possible to obtain direct Kôdôkan recognition for national dan-ranks due to the presence of a resident senior Kôdôkan sensei, but that was a long time ago. Of course, they have procedures to get such a rank in the US, but when you come from abroad that also meant you had a history that didnt look anything like that of other US judoka. You would not have any previous "rank certificates", not even any tangible local US history. Anyhow, to cut a long story short, in the end I did apply for such a Kôdôkan rank and had two meetings with Kôdôkan officials. I was proposed a relatively reasonable procedures that in any case an exam before a Kôdôkan jury was definitely part of it, which was exactly what I hoped, so I could demonstrate my knowledge and skill. I also spotted Kôdôkan officials a couple of times showing up during work-outs and during kata demonstrates just to watch what I was doing. In the end thanks to politics and the nastiness of what one meets in judo the process since has been pending for many, many years. In any case, I found it only normal that a formal exam would have been included, and I cannot imagine me willing to accept otherwise. However, maybe ... going back to your argument ...  it's a matter of "delegating exam authority". I still "could" understand that. Where it gets really odd though is that in countries such as the US there usually ISN'T any formal exam before national grading board involved. In my home country we also use the terminology "doing a judo exam", but in the US they use an entirely different terminology, namely "getting promoted", which as an expression doesn't really exist in my country with regard to judo dan-ranks. There is a distinctive difference between both terms, namely that the first one implies a formal judo exam before a board, while the second term does not imply such a thing at all. It also appears that the chief instrument that is used for a "promotion in rank" (rather than for "doing a jûdô exam for a rank up") is filling out a form and paperwork. So, it appears actually possible in US culture to receive consecutive higher jûdô ranks without any formal exam before a board. If in this case  --and that appears how it is--  Kôdôkan upon recommendation of the US Kôdôkan Committee can decide to recognize the rank, then indeed one would receive a Kôdôkan rank and Kôdôkan certificate without any exam involved. This is distinctively different though from how it was a long time ago in my country before I was a black belt. Even though you could then directly (upon paying an additonial and rather hefty fee) have your rank homologated with the Kôdôkan, every single person had to do a formal exam and the Kôdôkan representative presided the exam board hence literally examining you himself.

    This brings me back to the issues you raise, that in a sense there appear to be two tracks to obtain a Kôdôkan rank/certificate, namely the one with exam and formal assessment and the one with no exam involved at all, just paperwork and hard cash. But one can't choose which procedure. The procedure is imposed and different depending on your country and citizenship and probably other things. The rationale that seems to underpin either procedure is merely historic and cultural.

    You think this is all weird ?  You know what I think is weird ?  That when you tell some people that there do not exist any rank certificates that either they don't believe you their main argument being ... "because they themselves (in a totally different country) have one". Right. And all countries express temperature in Fahrenheit, and drive to the other side of the street, use stone or pounds to express weight, etc too ?  To me it is extremely strange that anyone would ask you for something without first asking if something like that even exists in your country. And yet, that's reality.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Hanon on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:18 am

    May I simplify this?

    John a judo ni dan, visits your home. John spots your kodokan certificate.

    John is most impressed.....John, question: Hey Peter I didn't know you where a Kodokan dan grade! I had no idea you had even been to the kodokan.

    Peter, reply: Well John I haven't been to the kodokan.

    Peter, Oh but how did you find the Japanese food and travel in Japan.

    John, reply: well I haven't actually been to Japan.

    Peter. Thinks...What a w...er.

    Now please tell me who needs more crap in there life?

    Be proud of the rank you wear and the person, persons and association that awarded it. They are the ones who know your judo.

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Kodokan Rank For US Judoka

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:41 am