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    Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

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    lperro

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    Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by lperro on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:47 pm

    hello everybody and thanks for any information!
    reading some of his late articles i found Kano talking about these two kind of excersises..
    from what i've understand the first (gido-taiso) should be complete, while the other not!
    anybody knows something more about?
    sorry for my poor english!

    cheers from italy

    Luca
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:13 am

    Perhaps NBK can help on this.....


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    NBK

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by NBK on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:42 am

    lperro wrote:hello everybody and thanks for any information!
    reading some of his late articles i found Kano talking about these two kind of excersises..
    from what i've understand the first (gido-taiso) should be complete, while the other not!
    anybody knows something more about?
    sorry for my poor english!

    cheers from italy

    Luca
    Luca, can you send a link to the articles? or a file?

    NBK

    lperro

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    what i know so far

    Post by lperro on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:47 am

    i have these articles translated in italian. if you want i can write a part of them here trying to do a translation...

    However..
    gido-taiso should be a collection of exercises inspired by manual work compilbed by Kano before the SZKT.
    for me it is a really interesting project that i would really know better

    the hyogen-shiki should be a sort of new-way to understand and propose the physical and mental training:
    the idea is to move not with the goal of self-defense (like the bujutsu-inspired training SZKT) but to express feelings, ideas and so on withe the movement of the body (like the last movements of Itsutsu).

    in this sense hyogen-shiki is interpreted by many not as an exercise but as a way to create exercises (a new-way).
    The fact is that in these articles Kano speak about an unfinished project based on these ideas.
    I wonder if any material about this is survived!

    i know my english is very bad but i hope you can understand me clearly.

    wdax

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by wdax on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:33 am

    lperro wrote:i have these articles translated in italian. if you want i can write a part of them here trying to do a translation...

    However..
    gido-taiso should be a collection of exercises inspired by manual work compilbed by Kano before the SZKT.
    for me it is a really interesting project that i would really know better
    one reference is: Chûtô kyôiku (No. 4) 1909: "gidô taisô ni tsuite"
    or: Kanô Jigorô taikei 6, 4-11

    A translation into german can be found in Andreas Niehaus: "Leben und Werk Kanô Jigorôs"

    lperro wrote:the hyogen-shiki should be a sort of new-way to understand and propose the physical and mental training:
    the idea is to move not with the goal of self-defense (like the bujutsu-inspired training SZKT) but to express feelings, ideas and so on withe the movement of the body (like the last movements of Itsutsu).

    in this sense hyogen-shiki is interpreted by many not as an exercise but as a way to create exercises (a new-way).
    The fact is that in these articles Kano speak about an unfinished project based on these ideas.
    I wonder if any material about this is survived!
    I´m sure, that CK can write something about that, but at the same time I think, this will take some time.
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    NBK

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by NBK on Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:22 pm

    Not sure I'm going to get to this soon - have visitors in town.

    There was actually a Kano-developed exercise kata earlier than this 1909 article (thank you, Wdax).  There have been some Japanese physical education professors that have tracked this; I have a couple of their articles that track in significant detail.

    Kano shihan saw the development of the European / gymnasium style exercise and their adoption around Japan, complete with European military / gymnasium style high collar uniforms (which actually became the exercise uniform of the Imperial Japanese military), and pitched in his own notions.  He was apparently disappointed that his kata were not widely adopted; the SZKT was only the last (I think) of a series that he authored.  While they were adopted by some schools where he had influence, and certainly the Kodokan, they did not become widespread.

    The typical Kano hagiographies do not address his failures, only his successes - and I think that he would consider his _failed_ efforts to develop universal exercise kata as _not_ among his most successful endeavors, to say the least - so today this is a pretty obscure topic, even in Japan.    Most modern Japanese judoka do not even know they exist; some but not all physical education history papers record them, but I have yet to find anyone that knows or practices the earliest versions.

    Edited to correct omitted words

    lperro

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    thanks for the information

    Post by lperro on Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:04 pm

    thank you everybody for the informations and the concern.
    still, it' s impossibile for me to read the german language..
    have you readen that book? does it include some technical instruction?
    what about these articles you mentioned? it would be great if you can provide any information
    so today almost nobody has an idea of what these kata looks like, right?



    thank you very much guys.
    L.
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    NBK

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by NBK on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:04 pm

    Think of Kano style aerobics with punches and kicks - like Billy bobs Taebo or such - he was way ahead of his time !

    lperro

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by lperro on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:56 am

    yes.. NBK i wonder what the japanesemanualwork-inspired aerobics looks like!

    all i've managed to find on internet about this topic it's this article (in japanese).
    from the very short introduction ive found the confirmation of what has been said in this thread..
    http://library2.nittai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/11015/399/1/16-1-13-21.pdf

    seem a very interesting topic to me, isn' it?

    lperro

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by lperro on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:57 am

    NBK wrote: like Billy bobs Taebo or such
    what is this?

    Old Chestnut

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by Old Chestnut on Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:10 am

    lperro wrote:
    NBK wrote: like Billy bobs Taebo or such
    what is this?
    Once upon a time, before body combat or boxercise, there was...

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:28 am

    Old Chestnut wrote:
    lperro wrote:
    NBK wrote: like Billy bobs Taebo or such
    what is this?
    Once upon a time, before body combat or boxercise, there was...

    You might be a serious contender for a medal in the Judo Show event. Go for it !


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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by wdax on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:05 am

    lperro wrote:thank you everybody for the informations and the concern.
    still, it' s impossibile for me to read the german language..
    have you readen that book? does it include some technical instruction?
    what about these articles you mentioned? it would be great if you can provide any information
    so today almost nobody has an idea of what these kata looks like, right?



    thank you very much guys.
    L.
    Yes, I read the hole book, but the text you mentioned is only a few pages. All nine movements are described and the reasoning is explained.

    But it´s NOT judo, it´s simply physical education by imitating some real movements. It´s a bit funny and strange and only worth looking out of curiosity.

    lperro

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by lperro on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:44 am

    Yes i understand the point.
    The fact is that Kano was always referring to "judo" as the principle of "Seiryoku Zenyo" and its application to nearly every aspect of human life. So his researches in the field of gymnastics and phisical education are not only historically but also theoretically and pratically interesting. For instance, today, judoka generally do gymnastic exercises to warm up (while in aikido there is a dedicated "taiso") and maybe this is due to the fact that gymnastic is a better use of energy than SZKT but maybe this is just a consequence of the lack of progress and evolution in the field that Kano started with gido taiso, SZKT and hyogen shiki...
    I will really appreciate if you could provide me the description of this kata Smile

    thanks to all.

    that video is terrible .. but the general idea is interesting thank you Smile

    wdax

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by wdax on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:39 am

    lperro wrote:Yes i understand the point.
    (....)
    I will really appreciate if you could provide me the description of this kata Smile
    I fear you did not really understand. Gido-taiso is not judo and it´s not a kata. It´s simply a system of physical education.

    Most people do not realize, that Kano for us was important because of Judo but for the japanese society he was much more important as the "father of sport" and as an educator, who was seeking for an ideal physical education.

    Kano realized, that there are systems of physical education consisting of movements without any other purpose then training the body. In his view these activities were simply boring and limited useful. On the other hand there were activities in the field of sports, work or "attack and defence", which were more interesting and useful, but not ideal as physical education.

    He wanted to bring this under one umbralla and so he created gido-taiso, which are movements done alone without any tools and imitating movements taken from everyday live (and yes: including kicking and striking).

    But this does not make it judo or a kata.
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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by NBK on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:11 am

    lperro wrote:Yes i understand the point.
    ....I will really appreciate if you could provide me the description of this kata Smile

    to answer your question, roughly as it's late....

    1) Keisu - ’numbers' or 'counting' - exercising the flexibility of the fingers of both hands

    2) Tama-migaki -  ball polishing - using both hands, as if polishing a large ball in front of your chest

    3) Hira-ita-migaki - flat board polishing - with fingers of both hands outspread, move left to right as if polishing a large board in front of your chest

    4) Tate-ita-migake - standing board polishing - with power in the fingers of both hands, move as if polishing a large vertical board standing before you

    5) Ro-ashi - Scull leg - imagine standing in a boat, using your whole body, one leg forward, and scull while turning your neck left / right (note: scull is the oar on the end of a boat, so I think the motion is moving your rear leg left-right in a semi-lunge, like the kendo warmup)  

    6) Shiho-keri - four directions kick - see judo

    7) Shiho-ate - four direction strike - see judo

    Cool Panpu - pump - imagine grasping the handle of a pump with both hands, move them and your hips up and down (note: I think like a deep knee bends / kettlebell lift?)

    9) Kuruma-mawashi - wheel turn (also called 'o-guruma' or 'big wheel') - imagine there is a large wheel mounted on a (vertical?) shaft, step with right foot to the left side of the wheel, then left foot to the right side of the wheel, then step back to origin. Repeat to opposite side.  

    What a Face Sounds like Kano shihan was obsessed with ki!!

    NBK


    Last edited by NBK on Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:13 am

    Some very good answers from both wdax and NBK, nothing for me to add, besides Niehaus has covered all these things extensively and thoroughly following some very decent research.

    I think it is good that people have an interest in aspects of judo that are less known, but I think the reality is important too, and wdax has already pointed that out. Sometimes I have the expression that people somehow expect that there is some secret judo that exists, secrets in judo that if you know them you can suddenly defeat people now too strong for you, or knowledge that will suddenly wipe away the flaws that judo has that we have been forced to face in recent years in the light of BJJ, KravMaga, MMA, etc. It reminds me of a phenomenon we have witnessed in classical music a couple of times: the discovery of Liszt's 3rd piano concerto, drawnings of a 10th symphony by Beethoven etc, and the fantastic expection that some incredible master work and knowledge might suddenly come to us making us part of history as being among the first to witness this phenomenon unfold. The reality is quite disappointing. Really, only a musiciologist could recognize some mathematical conventions that allow an expert to decide whether such elementary starting steps are genuine or not. Similarly, these ideas of Kanô are not some kind of brilliant knowledge that has been covered by the dust of years ready to offer you the Holy Grail or Judo Knowledge. Some of it are embarrassing reminders of how limited and basic some parts of judo are. At the most it adds to the profile of Kanô painting a picture thoroughly different from the myth the Kôdôkan has nurtured over the years, the myth of a brilliant and skillful martial artist ready to take up his place among the list of Miyamoto Musashi, Tsukahara Bokuden whose death in the end is the only thing that reminds they were actually humans rather than Gods. In reality there is little that will withstand scrutiny. If the judo as it it exists, indeed complemented with ancient but historically interesting things (kappô, moral ideas, aesthetics) are not sufficient, then the only hope one has is to study other arts in addition. In reality it is hard to learn and master a large variety of martial arts with high proficiency. Times have changed, the demands of family, profession and similar things make it hard to lead a life like Mochizuki Minoru, Tomiki Kenji, and a handful of contemporaries with proficiency in multiple martial arts. Judo was created as late 19th century education. One should bear this in mind: it predates nuclear wars, stem cell research, and antibiotics, and much knowledge, skills, anatomo-physiological and kinesiological knowledge was simply not known then. This has implications. There's nothing one can't do about this fundamentally, not even by creating dynamic borders on tatami or changing the colors of one's gi. Judo has its limits, and those limits will due to modern evolution today be exposed far more than they were 80 years ago. Sorry, nothing I can do about it. I used to be excited in the 1970's about a portable phone, a thing of 10 lbs you had to carry as a suitcase, and that had an autonomy of as much as 3 hours ...


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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by Udon on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:12 am

    There are no philosophies, systems of education , or sciences that do not have limits. CK Sensei is correct in saying judo has limits. The key is to try and master as much of judo as you can. I don't think most of us will ever reach or be constrained by its limits

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by lperro on Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:43 am

    Thank you NBK!! very very interesting and funny too!  
    still, i don't get where is this "ki"obsession Smile

    I don't know if Judo has limit as the pope said, but, more than once, i've readen K. Mifune saying that: judo is limitless (judo wa mugen nari).

    Anyway, even if Judo have limits, this for me is a good thing as long as the limit is something to overcome, the point to start the progress and to move on. And if some ideas of Kano "are embarrassing reminders of how limited and basic some parts of judo are" well that's good for me! these parts are not something to hide in embarrassment in my opinion but to know and study too: because there's still a lot of work to do there, in that field, for someone.
    If anybody that reached the level in which can give something to the art ("ri" of shu-ha-ri) would start to give his contribution to the depth or the extension of the art, the evolution of Judo maybe would be more and more efficient and the limit will be everytime moved forward...to the infinity and beyond? Smile

    Anyone knows something more about the hyogen-shiki?

    sorry for my bad language and opinions Smile
    Thanks everybody for the great contributions!
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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by NBK on Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:10 am

    lperro wrote:Thank you NBK!! very very interesting and funny too!  
    still, i don't get where is this "ki"obsession Smile

    I don't know if Judo has limit as the pope said, but, more than once, i've readen K. Mifune saying that: judo is limitless (judo wa mugen nari).

    Anyway, even if Judo have limits, this for me is a good thing as long as the limit is something to overcome, the point to start the progress and to move on. And if some ideas of Kano "are embarrassing reminders of how limited and basic some parts of judo are" well that's good for me! these parts are not something to hide in embarrassment in my opinion but to know and study too: because there's still a lot of work to do there, in that field, for someone.
    If anybody that reached the level in which can give something to the art ("ri" of shu-ha-ri) would start to give his contribution to the depth or the extension of the art, the evolution of Judo maybe would be more and more efficient and the limit will be everytime moved forward...to the infinity and beyond? Smile

    Anyone knows something more about the hyogen-shiki?

    sorry for my bad language and opinions Smile
    Thanks everybody for the great contributions!
    Some folks are obsessed with ki, trying to find it everywhere.

    Certainly Kano shihan was aware of the concept of ki, but always described motions in the most scientific manner possible, reducing traditional vague notions like 'move with ki' to precise instructions of how to maintain your posture, how to step, stand, etc. He never, that I can find, wrote negatively of the traditional descriptions; in fact, in one instance, he wrote a very positive, extensive forward to a book that contains the most detailed descriptions of traditional ki-building martial arts exercises in pre-war modern Japan, praising the author and his art, but not endorsing 'ki' as such.

    In his surviving physical education kata, Seiryoku Zen'yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata, there is a single symbolic movement, the mirror polishing, and some folks have tried to link that to 'ki'. I think that overdone, and overlooks the long tradition of martial arts shugyo as a means to develop personality and character, polishing the soul. The symbolic soul-reflecting eight-sided mirror, the yatakagami, is used in many martial arts symbols, including the Kodokan emblem and the very shape of the Nihon Budokan building itself.

    I just thought it interesting that in this kata, there are three movements that involve polishing movements, hence the joke about 'ki'.

    Those, along with the keisu / finger movements, the pump, etc., appear to me to be early examples of isometrics, if done with tension in the movement - simply waving your arms about doesn't do much. I think that is what people simply looking at the movements miss.

    NBK

    lperro

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    Re: Gido-taiso, hyogen-shiki...

    Post by lperro on Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:03 pm

    yes yes yes. I definetly agree with you.
    I think that, maybe, the 'ki' movements and related-stuff is something you do in silence, as a natural consequence of certain way of act (stand,move the body, breath etc. like in the "kime-no-kata") and not something you can talk about and theorize in a clear way (that is, not metaphorical), following the Wittgenstein 'motto': "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent."

    thank you very much for the reply!

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