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    After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

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    Cichorei Kano

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    After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:39 pm

    Who thought we had had it all, don't despair, it always can get worse !  

    The French have been trying hard to create a new word: "judokate".

    What is "judokate" ?  According to the French, "judokate" supposedly is the female form of "judoka". So, male judoists would then be "judoka" and female judoists would be "judokate".

    You think I am making this all up ?  Na-aaah, just look for yourself:

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/judokate
    http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/judokate

    In fact, it appears there now even exists a Wikipedia category "judokate":

    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Judokate_fran%C3%A7aise


    And, even a whole discussion on this dragon of a word:

    http://www.rue89.com/rue89-sport/2012/08/01/doit-dire-une-judokate-ou-une-judoka-234304


    French  --well not officially, but anyhow--  has now also created the following words for female martial artists:


    • aïkidokate
    • budokate
    • karatékate


    Where does this dragon of a word originate ?  Well, ladies and gentlemen, the French have "un advocat" for a male lawyer, but "une advocate" for a female lawyer, thus it is "only logical" to the French that you would have "un judoka", but "une judokate" ...

    The new words, as can be expected also have a separate plural: 1 judokate, but 2 judokates.

    If one thinks about, no matter how ridiculous the word, what's happening really is no different from dragons we have met in English, such as "senseis" and "judokas/judoka's". The fact that 'judoka' really is a Japanese word and not French, does not limit the French in their endeavors towards originality, after all at some point a word becomes a loanword in a different language. Fair enough, but, it's a weak excuse, since after all why import a loanword erroneously when you can also import it correctly ?

    The word "judokate" isn't in the main French dictionaries (Larousse, Petit Robert) yet, but people who think this is all very 'kewl' are trying their best to get it in there.

    Anyhow, can you already imagine ?

    Interviewer: "So, AnnMaria/Ronda/Kayla/Stacey, when did you decide to become a judoka ?"

    AnnMaria/Ronda/Kayla/Stacey: "I am sorry, but I am not a 'judoka' but a 'judokate' and if you can't even get that right, next time you make that mistake I will armbar/throw/unman/kill you/sue your nuts off."


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total


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    afulldeck

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by afulldeck on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:37 am

    Okay I'm totally confused. Seems part of the world is going in the other direction. Didn't Sweden add a gender neutral pronoun to their dictionary last year called 'hen'? Back in the '80s there was a real push to eliminate gender based terms in general writing in North America. Now I don't know what to do....


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    Jihef

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Jihef on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:11 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Who thought we had had it all, don't despair, it always can get worse !  

    The French have been trying hard to create a new word: "judokate".
    Ah well, I am sorry CK, but this time I have to draw the line. The french are innocent. They have nothing to do with this infamy. I have to spill the beans.

    It is all our fault, yes to us, the belgians. Who ?? Ah, it is the citizens of a small kingdom, which once had a queen of judo, a long time ago…
    Ingrid Berghmans was her name, and sports pages journalists were happy. Yes, here was a charming young lady, who was winning many medals for her tiny kingdom…
    So they were very happy to meet her, what a change from long-haired mustachioed footballers !
    There and then, they created the word "judokate" in her honor… so pleased were they with their new idol.

    Le Soir wrote:Mercredi 4 janvier 1989

    Geboers et Berghmans sportifs 1988

    Cent soixante-six journalistes sportifs professionnels ont participé au référendum annuel organisé par l'Association Professionnelle Belge des Journalistes Sportifs (A.P.B.J.S.), dans le but de désigner le «sportif belge» et la «sportive belge» de l'année. Une participation véritablement exceptionnelle pour ce référendum 1988 duquel ont émergé deux représentants de la province du Limbourg, les deux grandissimes favoris du scrutin au demeurant, à savoir Eric Geboers et Ingrid Berghmans.
    (…)
    Berghmans, septième!
    Véritable plébiscite chez les dames en faveur d'Ingrid Berghmans,- qui totalise 445 points sur les 498 qui pouvaient être attribués pour la première place!

    Notre judokate de charme, couronnée à Séoul à la faveur d'un tournoi qui n'était hélas! que de démonstration, inscrit de ce fait son nom au palmarès du référendum pour la septième fois... après 1980 et ses cinq consécrations consécutives de 1982 à 1986.
    (…)
    So sorry, but new words are a belgian specialty…
    Wink
    J-F.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:37 am

    Jihef wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Who thought we had had it all, don't despair, it always can get worse !  

    The French have been trying hard to create a new word: "judokate".
    Ah well, I am sorry CK, but this time I have to draw the line. The french are innocent. They have nothing to do with this infamy. I have to spill the beans.

    It is all our fault, yes to us, the belgians. Who ?? Ah, it is the citizens of a small kingdom, which once had a queen of judo, a long time ago…
    Ingrid Berghmans was her name, and sports pages journalists were happy. Yes, here was a charming young lady, who was winning many medals for her tiny kingdom…
    So they were very happy to meet her, what a change from long-haired mustachioed footballers !
    There and then, they created the word "judokate" in her honor… so pleased were they with their new idol.

    Le Soir wrote:Mercredi 4 janvier 1989

    Geboers et Berghmans sportifs 1988

    Cent soixante-six journalistes sportifs professionnels ont participé au référendum annuel organisé par l'Association Professionnelle Belge des Journalistes Sportifs (A.P.B.J.S.), dans le but de désigner le «sportif belge» et la «sportive belge» de l'année. Une participation véritablement exceptionnelle pour ce référendum 1988 duquel ont émergé deux représentants de la province du Limbourg, les deux grandissimes favoris du scrutin au demeurant, à savoir Eric Geboers et Ingrid Berghmans.
    (…)
    Berghmans, septième!
    Véritable plébiscite chez les dames en faveur d'Ingrid Berghmans,- qui totalise 445 points sur les 498 qui pouvaient être attribués pour la première place!

    Notre judokate de charme, couronnée à Séoul à la faveur d'un tournoi qui n'était hélas! que de démonstration, inscrit de ce fait son nom au palmarès du référendum pour la septième fois... après 1980 et ses cinq consécrations consécutives de 1982 à 1986.
    (…)
    So sorry, but new words are a belgian specialty…
    Wink
    J-F.
    You may very well be right, now that you remind me of it. However, now that I recall at the time that was just meant tongue-in-cheek and not actually intended to be used as a term to refer to female judoka in general, no ?  I mean ... there have been many judoka who have had 'nicknames', but the idea has never really been to transform those nicknames into a concept ?  Not even Ingrid Berghmans commonly refers to herself as a "retired judokate", but as a "retired judoka".

    In that case, it is still the language French rather than the French nation. However, despite the word then having been created in your country, is it really commonly used by French-speakers in your country ?

    As to the French being innocent, well ... Gérard Depardieu still stood up and peed in aisle of an airplane, and the French president still wanted to bomb Syria, and Brigitte Bardot wasn't as innocent as she looked either, so !! Very Happy 

    Also, watch out with drawing the line. The last one to draw a line was Obama, and two weeks later he denied ever having drawn a line ...


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    Jihef

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Jihef on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:46 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:You may very well be right, now that you remind me of it. However, now that I recall at the time that was just meant tongue-in-cheek and not actually intended to be used as a term to refer to female judoka in general, no ?  I mean ... there have been many judoka who have had 'nicknames', but the idea has never really been to transform those nicknames into a concept ?  Not even Ingrid Berghmans commonly refers to herself as a "retired judokate", but as a "retired judoka".

    In that case, it is still the language French rather than the French nation. However, despite the word then having been created in your country, is it really commonly used by French-speakers in your country ?  
    Oh yes, pretty common.
    What made you notice this NOW ?? It has been there forever…

    Journalists… They create a brand new word, everyone then reads the articles, and BOOM here is a new word in circulation. It really is the Fourth Estate.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:05 am

    Jihef wrote:
    What made you notice this NOW ?? It has been there forever…

    Journalists… They create a brand new word, everyone then reads the articles, and BOOM here is a new word in circulation. It really is the Fourth Estate.
    Well, unfortunately I commonly don't read popular stuff in every language, but I do regularly come across scholarly work in other languages. The scholarly work in French typically uses the proper term, but I recently, quite unusually saw 'judokate' being used, and as a Japanese/Chinese linguist I obviously stumble if I come across something that sounds fishy. It's all context. If whatever strange term is used in The Simpsons or in a Saturday Night Live, well ... they are comedy shows and not meant to be taken seriously, but if something appears somewhere where it is in improper context, then it rings a bell.

    But to go back to your question what made me notice this NOW, I think I saw the word being used in English just days ago, and that, as far as I know, is not common to me. Then again, what do I know, since obviously British English, Scottish English, American English, Aussie English, Kiwi English, Caribbean English, South African English will all have some words common to their culture but not in another English-speaking culture, so impossible for me to know for sure if this word is now used in a popular way in some of the English-speaking areas.

    Anyhow, I then Googled the term and thought "what the heck". Maybe, like you suggest, the word had been around for a long time, but I simply missed it as whenever I heard it, it was used tongue-in-cheek and the shock effect now comes from seeing it in a serious context. I surely can't be standing alone in this, since the discussion in French, to which I made a reference, dates from summer last year. So, if the French themselves find it necessary to start discussing the word in 2012 even if, like you said, the word had been in existence for 20 years, then certainly there are still issues being perceived with it, even in France.

    I do know that in all countries new words now and then are being created, including in Belgium, where I believe, about three years ago the single most popular new word, was the term "tent slut".


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Correction typo)


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    Jihef

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Jihef on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:15 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:The scholarly work in French typically uses the proper term, but I recently, quite unusually saw 'judokate' being used, and as a Japanese/Chinese linguist I obviously stumble if I come across something that sounds fishy. It's all context. If what strange term is used in The Simpsons or in a Saturday Night Life, well ... they are comedy shows and not meant to be taken seriously, but if something appears somewhere where it is in improper context, then it rings a bell.  
    OK, I got it now.
    Judokate in popular use has been there forever, as far as I can remember, which means the "Ingrid Berghmans" nineteen eighties.

    Of course, in scholarly work, well…  
    What a Face
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:35 am

    Jihef wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:The scholarly work in French typically uses the proper term, but I recently, quite unusually saw 'judokate' being used, and as a Japanese/Chinese linguist I obviously stumble if I come across something that sounds fishy. It's all context. If what strange term is used in The Simpsons or in a Saturday Night Life, well ... they are comedy shows and not meant to be taken seriously, but if something appears somewhere where it is in improper context, then it rings a bell.  
    OK, I got it now.
    Judokate in popular use has been there forever, as far as I can remember, which means the "Ingrid Berghmans" nineteen eighties.

    Of course, in scholarly work, well…  
    What a Face
    Yes ...

    And I meant to write "Saturday Night Live", not "Saturday Night Life", and "whatever strange term" instead of "what strange term". Sorry, typos, typos ...


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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by judo66 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:41 am

    Well, the term judokate has been used in french before 1989. It was already used at least since the beginning of the 70's. Bad habits can stay for long.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:52 am

    judo66 wrote:Well, the term judokate has been used in french before 1989. It was already used at least since the beginning of the 70's. Bad habits can stay for long.
    That long ? I did not know that.

    Do you have any experiences or information about how most women in judo feel about the term ? It seems to me that women in judo have for so long desired to be considered equal to men (see: abolishing differential exam requirements, rejections about the "joshi stripe", etc.), whereas the term "judokata" seems to be wanting to sexualize the mere fact of being someone who practices judo. There don't seem to be any "Judoharry" or "Judotom" or "Judobob" concepts to refer to a male judoka, the only exception probably that someone somewhere on a judo forum or blog whose name happens to be Harry, Tom or Bob will likely have constructed such a term as his screen name.


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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:14 am

    Look, if it's in Wiki, it must be right!
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    judo66

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by judo66 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:33 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    judo66 wrote:Well, the term judokate has been used in french before 1989. It was already used at least since the beginning of the 70's. Bad habits can stay for long.
    That long ?  I did not know that.

    Do you have any experiences or information about how most women in judo feel about the term ?  It seems to me that women in judo have for so long desired to be considered equal to men (see: abolishing differential exam requirements, rejections about the "joshi stripe", etc.), whereas the term "judokata" seems to be wanting to sexualize the mere fact of being someone who practices judo. There don't seem to be any "Judoharry" or "Judotom" or "Judobob" concepts to refer to a male judoka, the only exception probably that someone somewhere on a judo forum or blog whose name happens to be Harry, Tom or Bob will likely have constructed such a term as his screen name.
    As a matter of fact i think they don't really care but i say judoka. On the other hand, the word judoka itself is not used properly outside of japan. It has been wrongly used that way (applied to any judoist) for so long that I think it is useless to try to change that. So (une judoka) seems reasonable

    French speaking people are so used to feminine and masculine words to clearly make the difference that ( judokate ) seems only normal for them.

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by talvisota on Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:55 pm

    Maybe it's because I speak a dialect of French and not "the norm", or maybe it is my past in linguistics, but I tend to view any kind of prescriptive grammar as horrifying. It is important for the vitality of a language to be able to create new words or loan some from another language to describe new realities. If it is borrowing them, it is doubly important for them to be integrated in the language's grammatical system, if only for ease of learning and logical consistency. The "right or wrong" line when it comes to language is extremely subjective, and I tend to be on the liberal side of things.

    People may scoff at words like "senseis" or "judokas" but in the end, all it means is that the loanwords are being assimilated fully by the host language. We are speaking English, not Japanese, and in English, plural nouns take an "s". Some may consider "sensei" or "judoka" valid English by virtue of the words being in use for some time and quite well known in the population, so English grammar applies. In some other situations, assimilation is done by "nativizing" the orthography : so we have "redingote" for "riding coat" or "ponch" for "punch" (those are Académie norms, by the way, and yes the latter looks silly). Would you like some "rosbif" too (roast beef)? The same happens in English.

    One could also look at it this way : if loan words were never integrated inside the host's grammar or orthography, wouldn't it be them that would be terrible unnatural abominations ruining the purity of the language? So if one cares for a language's purity enough to retain the original grammar of loanwords in the name of so-called "correct usage", isn't it a bit dichotomous to say that adapting said loanword to the host's grammar is incorrect usage since that is the result that in the end would ensure that a language's internal workings and (what's left of the) logical order remain undisturbed? Wouldn't the second process actually be more beneficial for "correct usage" of a language? In my mind, the only two logically sound propositions to "correct usage" are that either you use the language itself to describe new realities (translations and neologisms), or you borrow some words from the human word bank but "nativize" them as soon as possible, preferably before they become widely accepted. It is the third proposition, borrowing words but sticking to them in their original form, imported grammar included, that is the chimera here.

    Pushing a purist's stance to the logical extreme (correct usage would mean avoiding loanwords altogether), shouldn't a judoka be called "un adepte de la voie douce"? Then we can have the feminine "une adepte de la voie douce" and everybody's happy? Or we could coin a neologism for judo : as savate was derived from a sailor's footwear, the French word for judo could be derived from what judoka wear, so we could call judo "pyjama" (gi is an unacceptable loanword!) and practitioners could be "pyjamateur" as an ode to a "savateur", which works doubly well because there's the word "amateur" in there which can mean "someone who likes x"! Where do we draw the line as a linguistic group when it comes to so called "language purity"? But I digress...

    Besides, most female-gendered nouns for professions are a fairly recent invention. I believe it is still common usage in France to refer to an eventual female premier as "madame le premier ministre", something one would never hear in Quebec (where we've got an actual female premier). Some purists are still shouting on the rooftops and ripping their shirts over this degeneration of the perfect Gallic language. I don't see how it's any different for "judokate". Because the masculine is a loan word from Japanese? It's about 150 years old. It's ours now, to do what we please with. This is how a language evolves.

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by JakubMB on Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:46 pm

    It's perfectly normal to calla a female judoka 'judoczka' in Polish, too. If a foreign word is being assimilated to a language with a different structure it's normal, that one day the usual forms of the given language start being used. Thus we get words like 'futbol' for football nad 'dżudo' fo judo in Polish. The latter isn't used very often, but it does happen.
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    Angelven

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    Re: After the Judo show, the blue gi, the yellow tatami, now a new word: "Judokate"

    Post by Angelven on Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:33 pm

    afulldeck wrote:Okay I'm totally confused. Seems part of the world is going in the other direction. Didn't Sweden add a gender neutral pronoun to their dictionary last year called 'hen'?  Back in the '80s there was a real push to  eliminate gender based terms in general writing in North America. Now I don't know what to do....

    Indeed.

    I can now say "Women drive better than hen's ..." ;-) (we now have han (he), hon (she) and hen (undefined or refusing to be put into a gender box - oh, and we actually have "hen"-bathrooms and changerooms in some places now ...)

    It's fairly common to use among people who want to be politically correct. And we say Judoka - no gender term on it in Sweden. Anyway, the female form of Judoka in Swedish would be Judoka, ending with a female "a" - If it split and got swedish, the male form would be Judoke or Judokae :-D

    So, how do you english speaking people pronounciate Judokate ? Judoka-te or Judo-Kate ;-) ?

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