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    Quicksilver

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    Knives and self defence

    Post by Quicksilver on Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:59 pm

    Greetings all,

    It seems to be a not uncommon position that carrying a knife with the intention of using it to defend oneself is a very bad idea because in most cases it is significantly more likely to be used on the carrier than on their hypothetical assailant. 'Course there are many variables at play, but what (and I ask more out of interest than any particularly practical motivation) are your thoughts on this, in agreement or otherwise?


    Regards.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:30 am

    Quicksilver wrote:Greetings all,

    It seems to be a not uncommon position that carrying a knife with the intention of using it to defend oneself is a very bad idea because in most cases it is significantly more likely to be used on the carrier than on their hypothetical assailant. 'Course there are many variables at play, but what (and I ask more out of interest than any particularly practical motivation) are your thoughts on this, in agreement or otherwise?


    Regards.
    Quicksilver,

    I think that the information on that is limited to law enforcement anecdotal data, in some cases maybe pooled towards national basic statistics. I can't see how one could address that question beyond speculation as there are going to be so many variables involved (number of people present, level of nastiness of an attacker (someone just stealing a wallet with no intention of physical capability to harm you vs. a true criminal with the intent and experience to kill you, level of your skill vs. level of the others skill, gender i.e and physical size and strength, element of surprise, etc).

    However, my major concern in a situation like the one you describe is that in many countries you would be subject to serious criminal prosecution if law enforcement on the street finds you in possession of a knife that clearly isn't intended to eat with and that clearly wasn't just bought in a store with the intent to transport it home. You would not even have to use that knife in order to get a criminal conviction. That in itself would be my major reason to strongly discourage any student or person from creating such a situation. I think that knife carrying is best left to Crocodile Dundee or Hollywood movies. To most people these would be more immediate reasons than the one you mention, since the one you mention only would come to light when actually getting involved in a fight, whereas the one's I mention will apply to you even if you never ever get involved in a fight. Simply, police stopping you for an identity check or alcohol use, or someone pointing you out to police could be enough to end up with serious legal problems. Do not forget that we live in a time and age that background checks for employment become more and more common, and a simple criminal conviction for "being in possession of a lethal weapon" without ever even having used it, could have serious and lasting problems on your economic, professional and social well-being.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:26 am

    My impression is that knife carrying reflects either significantly low self-confidence or a particularly nasty personality.

    When one person in an altercation presents a bladed weapon with the intention to use it there is a high chance of serious injury or death. When two people present with intention there is a high chance of serious injury or death.

    Personally, despite training in knife fighting, unless an armed person entered my house I would not reach for a knife. I find I am bound by legal and moral issues.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Stacey on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:59 am

    I was at the USMA a couple of years ago. Everybody was wearing a rather large knife. Everybody was wearing a uniform, too.

    I carry a knife. It's not for self defense, though it could be used in that capacity since I have some training, if I remembered it. It's more oft used to open a bag of dog food or kitty litter, dig up a specimen of mushroom, or put a hash mark in my belt for every fool who's startled by the fact that I carry a knife.

    I always pat myself down and leave the cell phone and the knife and all of my explosives in my car before going to court.
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    BillC

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by BillC on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:11 am

    Or pointed sticks ...



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    Stacey

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Stacey on Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:03 am

    a favorite MP skit
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    NBK

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by NBK on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:47 am

    DougNZ wrote:My impression is that knife carrying reflects either significantly low self-confidence or a particularly nasty personality.

    When one person in an altercation presents a bladed weapon with the intention to use it there is a high chance of serious injury or death.  When two people present with intention there is a high chance of serious injury or death.

    Personally, despite training in knife fighting, unless an armed person entered my house I would not reach for a knife.  I find I am bound by legal and moral issues.
    Seems that DougNZ didn't grow up on a farm. Particularly before Velcro ziplock bags etc. Working men carry knives - and know how to tie things as well as cut them. Knives can be a lot of things. Tools, flash, jewelry, ego boosters.

    I have one of those large knives that Stacey saw at the US Military Academy. They're beautifully made, German spring steel, ceremonial officer sabers - worthless in a fight but dangerous by accident. Saw a guy skewered with one through his upper gumline,I nearly choked with laughter (entertainment was at a premium in my life at the time).

    CKs point is well taken - Japan's laws are broad and harsh. I had an entire box of knives that I once measured, not a single one was legal to carry in Japan - and I thought them all modestly sized, used to carry them everywhere in the US before Sep 11, too.

    But you get caught w a serious blade in Japan you better have a convincing reason or plan on a very long conversation w a large number of police.

    I now prefer weapons that don't look like weapons. And judo has the techniques to use them, too.
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    BillC

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by BillC on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:02 pm

    NBK wrote:Seems that DougNZ didn't grow up on a farm. Particularly before Velcro ziplock bags etc.  Working men carry knives - and know how to tie things as well as cut them ... used to carry them everywhere in the US before Sep 11, too.
    Sigh. Speaking of something good for work, I miss my Leatherman. Tool box in itself.

    You are right, some people don't need to carry big knives ... drive red Corvettes ... wear big belt buckles ... post pictures of ridiculously large firearms. Wink

    NBK wrote:I now prefer weapons that don't look like weapons.  And judo has the techniques to use them, too.
    Tell us more ... this would be unknown to 99% of judoka in the world ... if not more.


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:08 pm

    BillC wrote:
    NBK wrote:Seems that DougNZ didn't grow up on a farm. Particularly before Velcro ziplock bags etc.  Working men carry knives - and know how to tie things as well as cut them ... used to carry them everywhere in the US before Sep 11, too.
    Sigh.  Speaking of something good for work, I miss my Leatherman.  Tool box in itself.

    You are right, some people don't need to carry big knives ... drive red Corvettes ... wear big belt buckles ... post pictures of ridiculously large firearms. Wink

    NBK wrote:I now prefer weapons that don't look like weapons.  And judo has the techniques to use them, too.
    Tell us more ... this would be unknown to 99% of judoka in the world ... if not more.
    Plainly, he is referring to computers ... particularly those with access to E-Judo fora.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:12 pm

    Incidentally, and straying slightly off-topic ... have any of you noticed that the higher a ju-jitsuka is graded the greater their proclivity to teach knife defences in seminar? And their uke are always well trained to use long, straight thrusts and maintain their balance whilst fully extended for lengthy periods of time.
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    BillC

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by BillC on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:22 pm

    DougNZ wrote:Incidentally, and straying slightly off-topic ... have any of you noticed that the higher a ju-jitsuka is graded the greater their proclivity to teach knife defences in seminar?  And their uke are always well trained to use long, straight thrusts and maintain their balance whilst fully extended for lengthy periods of time.
    Is that what is referred to as "holding your arm out while someone beats the crap out of you?"


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:39 pm

    Stacey wrote:

    I carry a knife.  

    I always pat myself down and leave the cell phone and the knife and all of my explosives in my car before going to court.
    "Is that your knife, baby, or are you just happy to see me ?"  Cool


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:45 pm

    BillC wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:Incidentally, and straying slightly off-topic ... have any of you noticed that the higher a ju-jitsuka is graded the greater their proclivity to teach knife defences in seminar?  And their uke are always well trained to use long, straight thrusts and maintain their balance whilst fully extended for lengthy periods of time.
    Is that what is referred to as "holding your arm out while someone beats the crap out of you?"
    Yes. It is also what is referred to as 'traditional ju-jitsu'.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:55 pm



    _________________


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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:37 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:Incidentally, and straying slightly off-topic ... have any of you noticed that the higher a ju-jitsuka is graded the greater their proclivity to teach knife defences in seminar?  And their uke are always well trained to use long, straight thrusts and maintain their balance whilst fully extended for lengthy periods of time.
    Is that what is referred to as "holding your arm out while someone beats the crap out of you?"
    Yes.  It is also what is referred to as 'traditional ju-jitsu'.
    And one of the biggest mistakes in not seeing the flaws inherent in a training method and not doing something aboutr it.

    So beyond beginer, just learning a technique, you don't allow Uke to do that in training.

    If you don't study any kind of blade training, then you would be advised to take advantage of all the documented on video prison and street knifings and have Ukes operate in that fashion.

    If you do study blade, you should still do the above.

    People don't leave it out there, they often overcommit, can be "drawn" but they don't stick the arm out there and the legion of people who do that give "Traditional" "Classical" "Combat" Ju Jutsu a bad rep.

    All training methodologies have their flaws and imposition of rules are going to have flaws, it's recognizeing thm and if they have more flaws than positives you toss them, if not you make up for those flaws in trining methods that don't have the same flaw.

    Like a Judoka doing some supplimental Boxing so he don't get punched in the head so easy outside a bar. Or learns to take it so he can get in and do his thing he's done in Judo.

    Where I live, knives are legal with in reason (No Bowie, Double edge, Daggers or Dirks) and you can't conceal them (and that part can be a loaded term, determinded by how good your lawyer is) and if you are attcked by 2 people it is considered deadly force and you can use a knife.

    Also you can against 1 on your property if you have reason to fear harm.

    2 days ago a man a block down the street backed another one out of his yard and down to the park in front of my house with a drywall knife. The police did not arrest him after they came. (Long story, doing much to do with the other guy's and his friends actions when the police were there)

    And about 2.5 miles from my home and our dojo.

    http://www.insidenova.com/news/crime_police/woman-charged-with-murder-in-kenny-diaz-stabbing-death/article_748f2276-2540-11e3-858c-001a4bcf887a.html

    Yeah dumb that knife training because people don't do that, do they?


    Last edited by Tai-Jutsu on Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:45 pm

    Quicksilver wrote:Greetings all,

    It seems to be a not uncommon position that carrying a knife with the intention of using it to defend oneself is a very bad idea because in most cases it is significantly more likely to be used on the carrier than on their hypothetical assailant. 'Course there are many variables at play, but what (and I ask more out of interest than any particularly practical motivation) are your thoughts on this, in agreement or otherwise?


    Regards.
    So you are saying the argument is that it is more likely that an attacker without a knife will disarm a person who carries a knife (particularly if they are carrying it for that reason) and use it on the citizen more often than the attacker will be driven, fended, fought, wounded, killed off?

    To the argument, not to you, I say BULLSHIT!

    It's hard enough for a trained martial artist to dissarm an attacker with a knife, let alone some thug to have the same probability of pulling it off. It happens both ways there but certianty either way is a dream and I lay money someone is getting cut at least.

    The camp that says it's easy is delusional, the camp that says it can't be done are wrong. It's in the middle and there is no easy other than luck provides and Murphy can take.

    The more you know about using knives the more you never want to ever be in any violent situation involving them.

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by DougNZ on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:42 pm

    Tai-Jutsu wrote:The more you know about using knives the more you never want to ever be in any violent situation involving them.
    Wisdom. Glad to have your acquaintance, Tai Jutsu.
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:03 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    Tai-Jutsu wrote:The more you know about using knives the more you never want to ever be in any violent situation involving them.
    Wisdom.  Glad to have your acquaintance, Tai Jutsu.

    Likewise, DougNZ.
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    NBK

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by NBK on Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:04 am

    I just attended the 10th International Aikido Taikai - the Tomiki ryu guys that have competitive aikido with a 'tanto', which looks like a leather cucumber.

    Their competitions are hard to figure out without a guide or detailed rulebook.  The stab has to be below the armpit into the chest or abdomen but from a distance.  No holding the gi or opponent.  No slashes.  No leg sweeps.  And any sort of upset that results in one going down or touches hands to the floor, etc. give points.

    It is a sport, and has the limitations of a sport.  I can't imagine how poorly most of them would fare in a real knife fight, with the free hand grappling, punching, kicks, headbutts, and gallons of blood.

    NBK
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:57 am

    Sparring with wooden dowls or aluminum training knives on the grass with limited rules and limtied safety equipment with most of what NBK said was issing from the above, while in the hot summer rain gives you fair idea and blood is much slicker than rain.

    There other drills and pracitces as well that can conditionin you for it as well but they are not for everyone not even most martial artist.

    A cane in the hands of one who knows how to use it, is just as good a wepaon and has psychological and socialogical advatages (and legal in most places) although a bashed in skull can be quite brutal as well.

    My son (11) has fenced for a year now, with a view towards future stick, cane and blade work. In Ju Jutsu he has trained in rudimentary classical and modern knife defense but at a very controled manner for now. With him there is a bit of the hold it out, for now, meanwhile he's doing one of the fastest 1 on 1 sports around. That should be good for now, I don;t want him creeped out or to get too into blades in the future.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Stacey on Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:49 am

    training in a dojo has little to do with getting jumped by some idiot intent on harming somebody (in the instant case, you). Chances are, if the idiot intent on harming somebody is using a knife, he's used it before. A lot before (except those shmucks who move the thing like in a Steven Segal movie, but with Bruce Lee squeaks - they're total posers).

    Already knowing that I'm not apt to respond to an attacker in a parking lot the same way as I would a training partner in a dojo, my best bet is to not make matters worse. If I fumble around with my tai otoshi, my attacker is not going to take it away from me and use it against me.

    btw, remember, by the time you figure out you're going to get attacked, your attacker has already picked you out and planned his attack.

    To me, planning for a knife attack, or whether I'll remember to unfold my blade during an attack is pointless (well, my knife does have a pretty nifty point, but you get the idea). I'd much rather do some randori with a few friends, take a few falls, try to get one of those empty gi throws, and have a good time. Worrying about knife attacks? pft! I prefer not to live in fear.
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:34 am

    To each their own Stacy, to each their own.

    Maybe it's expeience and context? And in your private world there is no value in that, fine.

    Maybe to you (but I know even Judoka who differ with you) training in a Dojo has nothing to do with defending yourself but to many it does.

    But 5 uses of force in the last 4 years for members of our JJ dojo says differnet in ours.

    Knives are somehting you should study if you have goals of SD beyond what Judo can give you atributes wise, as knives are the 2nd most common weapon, after blunt insturments, people are assualted with and since your concern is how much your assialant has used it before, than knowing those methods and better ones than the average 75 IQ criminally bent trog can devise.

    And a trained knifer vs, him is like him trying to wrestle with a trained Judoka, it's possable he can win but the ods are not in his favour. The same people who claim you cant strip a wepaon from an attacker will throw out that the assialant will disarm a citizen with a weapon enve easier. That is a flawed argument, it's either it's doable for both or not doable for both. It's doable, never to be counted as easy. (And I prefer impobilising through capture or kensetsu waza the arm at the elbow and shoulder over any direct strips anyways, like Stacy would have to use with her Tiaotoshi,if he has a knife or it's not her Taiotoshi he will be taken away from her,

    On the same site where Judoka bitch about how far from Kano's vision your art is becomeing, it seems one of his major stated goals is pushed more and more to the side, part out of specialisation (that can be cool, makes Judo a better specific attribute builder) lack of interst of some and ignorence in others. Self Defense was right up there with developing people physically and mentally.

    I'm amazed how much more the older Judo books I've read had much more than those of today in SD. That Goshin Jutsu Kata the other day had some real good stuff in it. Be even better if they worked off of more prison and street style, recipicaiong and off hand amping knife work to suppliment it.

    Again I posted where right on my block a blade was pulled this weekend and 2 miles down the road last weekend a knife was used to kill an 18 year old. Around here, you can run afoul of those types real easy and they have none of the restraint and good chacter of the poeple on this forum. I'd rahther put them in the hospital if they can't be avoided than just wish for the best and use "It's all commando bullshit!" type conventional wisdom to build up what I do when someone else spends time working on those type of problems.

    A few months I was appoached by a desheveld guy, with ghetto English and the usual pan handle or set up of "Leme hold a dolla!" and when I politelty said no and you can see him start to shift into a more confrontational request, his eyes went right to my side, where I legally carry a nice knife that is much like a steakknife (Cold Steel Roach Belly- I've used it as a steak knife and it's my open all tool) but better and totally legal. "Cool man" is what came out of his mouth. Now it still might have added to nothing without the weapon but his eyes did go to it and his demeanor swithced with the look of recognition. So we wiill never truley know but odds are if he was entertaining the idea he thought better of it by the presence of a wepaon and a firm but not aggressive "No".

    The real goal is to not have to use any of your physical skills outside of training amd for you folks compitition, is it not?



    Last edited by Tai-Jutsu on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Stacey

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Stacey on Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:48 am

    Tai-Jutsu wrote:To each their own Stacy, to each their own.

    Maybe it's expeience and context? And in your private world there is no value in that , fine.

    Maybe to you (but I know even Judoka who differ with you) training in a Dojo has nothing to do with defending yourself but to many it does.

    But 5 uses of force in the last 4 years for members of our JJ dojo says differnet in ours.

    my experience says I'm a better lawyer than judoka, at least outside the dojo.  But, then 20+ years of judo, and a mess of years in TKD/kick boxing, and you'd think I'd be able to defend myself.

    Glad your students have had alternative experiences.  I have no delusions that what I take from the dojo I can apply in a parking lot.  I do know I can come up with exemplary one liners while somebody is trying to beat my face in ("my 90 year old grandmother scratches her ass harder than you hit").  But hey, I've never rehearsed that sort of thing - it just sort of came out.

    Will say, it made the last winter Olympics much more interesting as the concussion and sleep caused an interesting amalgam of curling and hockey.

    So, your 5 uses in the last 4 years are fine for you.

    My 1 use in the last 4 years was an epic fail.

    ** edit - I've also engaged in boxing and can hold my own fencing, with a preference for epee.
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:22 pm

    Stacey wrote:
    Tai-Jutsu wrote:To each their own Stacy, to each their own.

    Maybe it's expeience and context? And in your private world there is no value in that , fine.

    Maybe to you (but I know even Judoka who differ with you) training in a Dojo has nothing to do with defending yourself but to many it does.

    But 5 uses of force in the last 4 years for members of our JJ dojo says differnet in ours.

    my experience says I'm a better lawyer than judoka, at least outside the dojo.  But, then 20+ years of judo, and a mess of years in TKD/kick boxing, and you'd think I'd be able to defend myself.

    Glad your students have had alternative experiences.  I have no delusions that what I take from the dojo I can apply in a parking lot.  I do know I can come up with exemplary one liners while somebody is trying to beat my face in ("my 90 year old grandmother scratches her ass harder than you hit").  But hey, I've never rehearsed that sort of thing - it just sort of came out.

    Will say, it made the last winter Olympics much more interesting as the concussion and sleep caused an interesting amalgam of curling and hockey.

    So, your 5 uses in the last 4 years are fine for you.

    My 1 use in the last 4 years was an epic fail.

    ** edit - I've also engaged in boxing and can hold my own fencing, with a preference for epee.  
    I am sorry it did not work out for you and unless you want to go into it, I'll just stop there and not do any internet anaylsis out of rrespect for what you went through.

    My son's coach bases his whole youth program on Epee, I might get to do some of the oldr forms, with the Epee and the old fencing dagger. Great fun and an atribute builder for so much (music among them, the bets and measures and all)) We have more incommn than we might think TKD, Kickboxing, Boxing, Fencing, you with Judo, me with JuJutsu.)

    That's 5 uses for 4 differnt people, I'm only one of those.

    If I had been in 5 situations in 4 years I'd need to rethink my life radically.I'm 40 so my days of going to idiot pits are over. I just sometimes run up against some les than steller people around here. Oh well, it beats where I used to live.

    And not saying you can't defend yourself, taking away all the TKD and Boxing (I love old TKD and we Box in our Dojo a bit), Judo has a ton of SD value. Don't do any sacrifice throws and IMO it is the best sportive art for carryover to SD. I find it funny how many Judoka put down SD or the SD value of their own art.

    Maybe it perplexes me because most of the Judoka I have known and trained with also train in Ju Juts and/or some of the other combative systems I do? Probably because they are all combat arms military their mentality is a bit differnt.

    Please Stacy if anything I said came across as a personal attack, please forgive me as I am not out to do that. I write like I talk, but we can't hear voice and expressions.

    I'm just getting sick of the myopicness in MA between many camps that I find more simularities in than differnces yet there is that "My side, your side" I find both sides to have value. Would not bother with this new fournm past trying to get a Judo instructor to team up with for my kids and youth program if not. (Because although I'm a great advocate for adults and JJ, kids need good attribut building martial sports before they are phased into some darker study when older.)
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    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Knives and self defence

    Post by NBK on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:40 pm

    I have mixed emotions about training barehanded against knives. Most I've seen doesn't include much of the common sense stuff - avoidance and distanct - use furniture, clothing, scream like a banshee, throw everything including the kitchen sink at your attacker. Often it seems the attacks are about rage or intimidation - Lichtenfeld wrote about the necessity to understand that you're going to get cut, perhaps badly, but you have to keep going. His data was that you don't likely don't get stabbed once, you get cut to shreds, and too many people just stopped once they're cut with a non-lethal first jab.

    Someone wrote about the utility of a cane.

    When it came to self defense against weapons, in the early 1930's Kano shihan wrote that the best weapon, aside from swords, which no one but specialists like military police could carry (and apparently ignoring sidearms) was what he called the 'bo', which means staff, but is now what modern martial artists would call a jo. Readily available, the training can be used with a number of alternatives, etc. etc.

    He also wrote his plan was to incorporate its training into judo and spread it throughout the world along with judo.

    I trained in Shinto Muso ryu jodo for years. It is the modern version of what Kano shihan arranged to be taught in the Kodokan ('to about 80 senior members of the KDK' IIRC offhand), and the attacker has a tachi, a full sized Japanese sword. Performed correctly you have a safe range from which to pummel your attacker, break his wrist, split his skull, jab out an eye or two, or in the modern Japanese police non-lethal incantation, break his collarbone.

    Against a normal sized knife, with a jo you've got lots of stand off distance, and a bare forearm or tee shirt makes for a real rotten guard against a quickly swung or thrust chunk of oak. What really gets people who aren't accustomed to sparring with them is the quick reversals and side swings. With practice you can modify to accommodate closer quarters or a shorter jo, such as a cane, or use techniques from something like Uchida ryu tantojutsu.

    One of the added benefits in countries like the US, with the Americans with Disabilities Act, I understand that you cannot even be asked why you carry a stout walking stick or cane. Don't know about inside a/c. Just don't try to carry a sword cane, which is a concealed weapon in most every state I think.

    NBK

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    Re: Knives and self defence

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