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    Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

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    NBK

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    Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by NBK on Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:09 pm

    In an obscure prewar judo book with a forward by a very senior Kodokan member, I found an interesting judo kata - 眞劔の形 (真剣の形 in modern Japanese, pronounced 'shinken no kata'). The term means 'real sword kata' and the meaning of the term is that of deadly force and intent.

    Miyawaki Taiken wrote a judo book Elementary Judo and Its Instruction, published in 1937. It is aimed at grade school judo instructors, and has detailed lesson plans to teach children. A graduate of the Tokyo Bunrika University, at the time of publishing he was the chief judo instructor at Tokyo Toshima Teachers School, the second teacher's training school in Tokyo.

    There are actually three kata described in differing detail:
    Ju no kata - a reduced, seven step version
    Shinken no kata - a seven step combatives kata
    Randori no kata - a ten step scenario to accustom children to randori

    The Randori no kata seems unique - while there is an extensive section on the Randori no waza, which is composed of the nage and katame waza, it is not introduced as a kata. Tori makes a throw and enters into osaekomi, and uke works a series of attempted escape. Ten total.

    The Ju no kata is at first glance just a reduced version of the full version and not broken down into sections:
    Tsuki-dashi
    Ryote-dori
    Kata-mawashi
    Kiri-oroshi
    Katate-dori
    Katate-age
    Tsuki-age

    Shinken no kata rationale - paraphrased.
    The Kodokan Kime no kata, also known as ShinkenShobu no kata, provides seated and standing defenses against armed and unarmed attacks. This kata uses much of the same and has the same objectives.

    The kata consists of standing versions of:
    Ryote-dori
    Tsukikake
    Tsukiage
    Suriage
    Yokouchi
    Keage
    Ushiro-dori

    It's the standing, unarmed portion of kime no kata, less the sode-tori (sleeve pull).
    Kime no kata standing techniques (tachi waza)
    Unarmed portion
    Ryote-dori
    Sode-tori
    Tsukkake
    Tsuki-age
    Suri-age
    Yoko-uchi
    Ke-age
    Ushiro-dori

    Tanto portion:
    Tsuki-komi
    Kiri-komi
    Sword portion:
    Nuki-kake
    Kiri-oroshi

    I think perhaps I know why sode-tori was dropped - often in that era boys phys ed / martial arts training was done in shorts and tee shirts, so no sleeves to pull!

    Any, looking at the moves, it is very evocative of Goshinjutsu. Was there a link? Seen this way it is an interesting possibility.

    Also, unlike today's kata training, the course outlines provide time for detailed, prior instruction in the attacks, atemi waza, grip breaks / escapes, etc.
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    NBK

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by NBK on Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:52 pm

    Incidentally, the reduced seven-move Ju no kata also does not match up with Ju shiki, which is the ten move version from 1938:

    Tsuki-dashi
    *Kata-oshi
    Kata-mawashi
    Kiri-oroshi
    Katate-dori
    Katate-age
    *Obi-tori
    *Mune-oshi
    Tsuki-age
    *Ryogan-tsuki

    * not in the reduced Ju no kata.



    johan smits

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by johan smits on Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:27 am

    Just as I think it does not become any better, you come up with this. Very Happy 

    About a link with goshinjutsu of Kodokan. The story as I know it, Kodokan goshin jutsu is mostly aikido through the head of the committee who developed it, Tomiki sensei.
    How about this? Maybe there is a link from goshinjutsu from Kodokan, thru this showa Shinken no kata to the Uchida shi shobu no kata.

    Why? Uchida was not only Kodokan judo but also several (I quess) jujutsu ryu. One of then being Jigo Tenshin ryu not?
    I have seen Jigo Tenshin ryu on youtube (nihon kobudo series I think). When you look at Jigo Tenshin ryu at least how it is shown there it could very easily pass for early aikido.
    It actually looks more like aikido than Kodokan goshin jutsu does as it is performed these days.

    Kodokan goshin jutsu coming from aikido might seem to be the obvious thing but reading what you and several others have posted on the two forums these past years has taught me that what seems obvious is not always so obvious.

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:51 am

    Much, much, much, much, much, much, much speculation !!

    The use of kata as part of children's judo education historically is only normal. I cannot write much about it as I currently have an article in press precisely on this topic. I must confess that I was not acutely aware of similar information contained in Miawaki Taiken. If I am correct, the book you are referring is not about "elementary judo instruction" but about "judo instruction in elementary schools". Isn't it "Judo shido yomoku kaisetsu-shogakka bunko" ?  My copy is from 1939, not 1937, but I don't have it here, so I can't verify it and it may well that I don't have a first print.

    Jû-shiki does not data from 1938, but from 1927-28 when it was published as part of Sei-ryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku. But its real creation remains unclear. Was it then really a new exericise of was it Kanô again re-introducing the original form of jû-no-kata, which indeed contained only 10 techniques, when it was split off from jûdô's ancient and primitive gôjû-no-kata.

    In terms of goshinjutsu, kime- and shinken shôbu-no-kata, there are many such things around, so this isn't unique. Mifune, Koizumi, Kawaishi all created their own self-defense kata, naming it kime-no-kata, goshinjutsu, or shinken shôbu-no-kata too. I have recordings with most of these being performed by their author. Mifune's own goshinjutsu is even published and included on the Shingen Mifune DVD, and Kawaishi's might even by on Youtube. These are techniques that often in jûdô environment were referred to as torite. They clearly date from before 1946 or shortly after, in a time when jûdô was still thought of and felt to most people who had been in jûdô for decades, as a proper martial art next to other schools of jûjutsu. It certainly wasn't an Olympic sport or aesthetic discipline like ice skating, can you even imagine the Butokukai approaching jûdô as a sport or like ice skating or dancing ?  So, these masters, in particular if they needed to demonstrate jûdô somewhere or recruit pupils, they had to do more than putting on a blue gi and put a ref in the middle who would give hansoku-make if you touch someone's legs. Instead, they had to show that jûdô was a worthwhile alternative for other popular arts such as shin-no-shindo-ryû jûjutsu, ryôi-shintô-ryû jûjutsu, etc. So, many of theme threw all kinds of things in their milkshaker, and poured out a bunch of loosely associated techniques. One has to bear in mind that largely these "kata" were not at all the kind of thing people think about today if they hear kata. So, they were not things demonstrated before a jury behind a table that would give a score. What they were, was like uchi-komi, a system to train over and over to become proficient in them to use on the street. They obviously could not be performed as true randori with the attacks and defenses being merely improvisatory because of the high risk of injury. Also, be aware that kata as it originally was performed, was performed on a resisting an opponent, and its gap with what we know today as randori, was originally much smaller. So, kata was a true practical training form in those days, not puppet theater as it is today.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:14 am; edited 1 time in total


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    rico

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by rico on Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:09 am

    NBK,

    From this and other posts you have made, it seems that judo was taught in the 20's and 30's differently from that of present day. Why didn't those types of instruction carry through to the present day? Have we lost something along the way?

    Thanks.

    -rico

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by wdax on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:45 am

    rico wrote:NBK,

    From this and other posts you have made, it seems that judo was taught in the 20's and 30's differently from that of present day.   Why didn't those types of instruction carry through to the present day?  Have we lost something along the way?

    Thanks.

    -rico
    In this case - yes and no.

    What NBK posted above is mostly a compilation of today still taught kata for the purpose of physical education in elementary schools. Todays view on kata is very often different to the way kata was seen in those days. Today usually only call a series of techniques a kata, but this is missleading. In japanese also a single technique is referred as kata (form) as long as it is predescribed.

    I remember very well when I was in Japan for the first time in 1976. We made a tour through northern Honshu the biggest of the main islands of Japan. Everywhere we came, people were doing exactly the same gymnastics with the same music in the background. This was a program, that was done very strictly and one could call this a "kata".

    In case of the book NBK mentioned we must look at the context. Judo became the official name of the ministry of education for Jujutsu around 1926. In (I think) 1931 (or 1939?) it became mandantory subject in schools. This was mainly to prepare the boys for their future service as soldiers. So judo in schools were not really meant to be a good physical education and to teach morality to the youth for the sake of betterment of society for a world of peace. That were Kano´s ideals, but reality was different the years before and during the war.

    Martial arts were used to teach the kids "samurai-spirit" (or in other words bushido) - or what do you think, why kids in elementary school "learned" how to defend against tanto and katana?

    I have the official instruction manual for judo elementary schools from 1941 (Kokumin gakko judo kyohan). No judogi (!), lots of atemi, defence againced katana, only few throws... just like NBK described.

    I would not call it a loss, when kids are no longer prepared for war.
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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Fritz on Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:27 am

    wdax wrote:I would not call it a loss, when kids are no longer prepared for war.
    You are right, if you can guarantee for sure that there is no war anymore...
    No knife stabbing at subways, no baseball bat attacks etc.

    Otherwise, i think its a good idea to prepare ...



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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by johan smits on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:01 pm

    It is a bit off-topic but well...

    Most of the time it ain't kids who wage wars. I find it a bit difficult to ' not prepare ' children for whatever they might encounter during their lives.
    We should teach them that war is wrong (all wars, oh yes) and that we should live in peace with each other. We should also teach them how to achieve this. Much, much to learn since we are savage beastys with a natural ability and an appetite for violence.
    Should children be taught self-protection skills, I would say yes. Kicking nuts and strangling? Not sure. Escapes and releases? Certainly.

    Before everybody goes Sleep 

    The more we learn about judo and it's (former developed and once practised) kata the better it is. If only from an theoretical and historical point of view.

    Happy landings.

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by wdax on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:08 pm

    Fritz wrote:
    wdax wrote:I would not call it a loss, when kids are no longer prepared for war.
    You are right, if you can guarantee for sure that there is no war anymore...
    No knife stabbing at subways, no baseball bat attacks etc.

    Otherwise, i think its a good idea to prepare ...

    I was not talking about self-defence, but about the missuse of judo for massive ideological indoctrination to mentally prepare kids to sacrifice themselves as soldiers on the battlefield. Judo was ideologically linked to Bushido-ideals - hat´s why kids were taught to "play" with traditional samurai weapons, which had no real purpose in modern war. But they should make the kids feel like samurai, who - in this ideology - represented the moral and physical superiority of Japan.

    The bitter truth is, that judo-technique can "serve" many different purposes. Judo-techniques can be used in completely opposite pedagogical contexts. When we talk about judo as an educational system we cannot limit this to training of techniques. We first have to ask for the bigger ideological context, because education is always determined by the interest of the ruling class.

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by johan smits on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:55 pm

    That's why we should abolish the ruling class bom 

    *searching desperately for his pills*

    All contributions to the great book of knowledge are important. The great book of knowledge is our first and foremost weapon against those who want to use us for their purposes. Learn people to think so they can make up their own minds.

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:59 pm

    Interesting discussion. I understand wdax very well. He has been training very, very hard, but not just on the tatami. He also has studied the theory and history and philosophy of judo very hard. That I know from reading his papers and from reading his answers on the German forum. So, I am not surprised that he is now reaching this mental level of judo that transcends seeing judo just as a practical skill set, or where the goal is simply mastership of technical perfection in a mechanical way. It is brave but also a enormous challenge, because one finds himself considering judo in a way that many will think "what the heck was that all about" as most do not even transcend the level of being merely focused on winning irrespective of technical-mechanical objectives. The desire for peace or apply judo in such a mental level is not something that is spectacular, that earns money, or exclusive IJF travel packages, or that will impress the fierce MMA fighter, but it is in line with the true message of Kanô Jigorô, so I can only applaud and embrace it. It may not win you fights at the tatami, but it may in the end be successful in avoiding any fights off the tatami, which in the end is an even much better application of maximal efficiency than it is is to throw someone over your shoulder with a perfect seoi-nage.


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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by wdax on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:43 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Interesting discussion. I understand wdax very well. He has been training very, very hard, but not just on the tatami. He also has studied the theory and history and philosophy of judo very hard. (...)
    Thanks for the kind words! After reaching a reasonable level in judo as a junior I studied sports and physical education in Bonn, were Prof. Hajo Bernett (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajo_Bernett) was director of the department of physical education alongside with Prof. Heinz Denk, who became my professors in the bet sense. They taught me how to look at the relation between sports and education and I still have to thank both of them.

    Additionally my generation learned, that sports and politics are for much linked - just remember that there were several olympic boycots (1976, 1980, 1984....) and that in those days it was not possible for many western judoka to talk to eastern judokas. These were my years as a competitor and I took sport-politics beside sports-history and sports-padagigic as a major subject in university.

    It´s a bit off-topic, but if people don´t think about the "why" of an activity they are always in danger to be instrumentalized for a purpose they do not want.
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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Neil G on Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:07 am

    Just as an aside, "shinken shobu" to us sword people means a dual with real swords. In modern Japanese it can be used to refer to any very serious situation
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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Fritz on Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:08 am

    In my opinion this:
    wdax wrote:Martial arts were used to teach the kids "samurai-spirit" (or in other words bushido) - or what do you think, why kids in elementary school "learned" how to defend against tanto and katana?
    is very different to your "play" statement in your next posting.
    wdax wrote:Judo was ideologically linked to Bushido-ideals - hat´s why kids were taught to "play" with traditional samurai weapons, which had no real purpose in modern war. But they should make the kids feel like samurai, who - in this ideology - represented the moral and physical superiority of Japan.
    If we agree, that the kata in those days were used as real trainings instrument, as drills with only little gap to randori, than i would not discredit the training
    with words like "play" :-(  
    I believe, that they (the "kids") were full aware, how much such a weapon can hurt, how dangerous it is... and they would have a very good idea how to handle attacks with
    such stuff... On the other side, potential civilian aggressors had to fear the possibility, that the victim is able to handle them...
    (And in closed combat in "modern war" there are still knifes, bayonets, folding spades, so principles useful against sword and dagger should be useful too)

    Of course the whole war was a bad and ugly thing...  
    But the conclusion is not logical:
    Because judo maybe was used to prepare the youth for the war, now we should avoid
    the old way of using the kata as real training instrument
     - but instead of this we talk about about a pedagogical concept to avoid fights...

    In my opinion, it sounds weird, to use a fighting system to transport the pedagogical idea of "non fighting".
    This could only work, if we see the fighting system as base, as fallback instance,
    for the hopefully unlikely case that a fight can't be avoided...
    And if we can give the pupils such a solid fallback instance, then the can develop the self-esteem or confidence to decide to avoid fights...
    Otherwise - if we can't give them the ability to fight in earnest -
    if kime-no-kata and related stuff are done as "show dance", if we let them playing around with silly rules
    (don't touch here, don't touch there, simulate attack to avoid shido...) and so on ("oh something hurts - what a catastrophe"),
    then i suggest to use something other to realize the "pedagogical aim",
    because to awaken overconfidence and false self-esteem is same betray as to conjure "bushido" like wdax stated...

    Beside of this, here in Germany, a lot budo clubs have "bushido" in their names...


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    NBK

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by NBK on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:19 pm

    wdax wrote:
    rico wrote:NBK,

    From this and other posts you have made, it seems that judo was taught in the 20's and 30's differently from that of present day.   Why didn't those types of instruction carry through to the present day?  Have we lost something along the way?

    Thanks.

    -rico
    In this case - yes and no.

    What NBK posted above is mostly a compilation of today still taught kata for the purpose of physical education in elementary schools. Todays view on kata is very often different to the way kata was seen in those days. Today usually only call a series of techniques a kata, but this is missleading. In japanese also a single technique is referred as kata (form) as long as it is predescribed.

    I remember very well when I was in Japan for the first time in 1976. We made a tour through northern Honshu the biggest of the main islands of Japan. Everywhere we came, people were doing exactly the same gymnastics with the same music in the background. This was a program, that was done very strictly and one could call this a "kata".

    In case of the book NBK mentioned we must look at the context. Judo became the official name of the ministry of education for Jujutsu around 1926. In (I think) 1931 (or 1939?) it became mandantory subject in schools. This was mainly to prepare the boys for their future service as soldiers. So judo in schools were not really meant to be a good physical education and to teach morality to the youth for the sake of betterment of society for a world of peace. That were Kano´s ideals, but reality was different the years before and during the war.

    Martial arts were used to teach the kids "samurai-spirit" (or in other words bushido) - or what do you think, why kids in elementary school "learned" how to defend against tanto and katana?

    I have the official instruction manual for judo elementary schools from 1941 (Kokumin gakko judo kyohan). No judogi (!), lots of atemi, defence againced katana, only few throws... just like NBK described.

    I would not call it a loss, when kids are no longer prepared for war.
    Rico, the judo community greatly revamped instruction postwar in order to get judo acceptable to the Occupation authorities and back in the public schools and facilities.  In doing so they stripped out the combatives, other than the kata, which apparently were neglected for some years after the war.  

    Wdax is correct (not that he needs me to tell him that....).  The wartime judo instruction was much as he describes.  I have multiple books and manuals from the period, and the instruction is much more like unarmed combat or karatedo than judo.  The military judo manuals actually took entire sections from older karate books.  

    There were also practical reasons, such as the lack of tatami and dedicated dojo, and the cost of uniforms, so the books tend to show boys in shorts.  The small number of throws are demoed by men in gi or boys with a cloth sling in a figure 8 around the shoulders (looks like whatever the cord that is used by traditionally dressed swordsmen use to pull up their kimino sleeves) to provide a purchase for uchikomi.  

    Fritz wrote:
    wdax wrote:I would not call it a loss, when kids are no longer prepared for war.
    You are right, if you can guarantee for sure that there is no war anymore...
    No knife stabbing at subways, no baseball bat attacks etc.

    Otherwise, i think its a good idea to prepare ...

    I tend to agree.  There is a great appeal and utility to basic self defense, and I think it should be part of any reasonable judo curriculum.

    NBK

    johan smits

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by johan smits on Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:07 am

    Interesting as this is we are a bit off-topic.
    Is there anyone who has something to ad to the incredibly interesting subject of these kata?
    It might be much speculation, or academic facts, or anything at all.

    The old shinken no kata for children has at least three techniques in common with Kodokan Goshin Jitsu.
    A comparison with the Uchida shi shobu no kata will be possible in due time...

    Any takers?

    Happy landings.

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by David Waterhouse on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:10 am

    I have followed this discussion with interest. In the 1980s a “kata of jūdō for youths” (Shōnen jūdō no kata 少年柔道の形) was devised for the youth division at the Kōdōkan, but never officially approved: see Magara Hiroshi 真柄浩, Me de miru jūdō kyōshitsu 目で見る柔道教室 (Tōkyō: Nagaoka Shoten, 1992). It had three divisions, as follows:

    (1)  Shōnen atemi no kata 少年当身の形

    1.  mae-geri 前蹴  2.  ushiro-geri 後蹴  3.  migi- (hidari-) yoko-geri 右(左)横蹴  4.  hiza-geri 膝蹴5.  mae-tsuki 前突 6.  ushiro-tsuki 後突  7.  mae-uchi 前打  8.  ushiro-uchi 後打  9.  naname-uegiri 斜上切  10.  kōhō-tsuki 後方突  11.  kōhō-uchi 後方打  12.  naname-ue-uchi 斜上打

    (2)  Shōnen kime no kata 少年極の形

    (i)  idori 居取: 1.  ryōte-dori 両手取  2.  tsukkake 突掛  3.  suri-age 摺上  4.  yoko-uchi 横打 5.  kiri-kake 切掛  
    (ii) tachiai 立合: 1.  ryōte-dori 両手取  2.  tsuki-age 突上  3.  yoko-uchi 横打  4.  ke-age 蹴上  5.  ushiro-dori 後取

    (3)  Shōnen jū no kata 少年柔の形

    1.  tsukidashi 突出  2.  kata-oshi 肩押  3.  kata-mawashi 肩廻  4.  katate-dori 片手取 5.  katate-age 片手上

    wdax

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by wdax on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:25 am

    Very interesting - it seems to be a reduced variation of seiryoku-zenyo-kokumin-taiiki-no-kata, which consists atemi-waza in tandoku-renshu, kime-shiki and ju-shiki.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:58 am

    From what I understand, someone has a paper about this very topic in press ... so, patience.


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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:58 am

    Fritz wrote:
    wdax wrote:I would not call it a loss, when kids are no longer prepared for war.
    You are right, if you can guarantee for sure that there is no war anymore...
    No knife stabbing at subways, no baseball bat attacks etc.

    Otherwise, i think its a good idea to prepare ...


    Si vis Pacem.....Para Bellum !!
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    NBK

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by NBK on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:22 am

    David Waterhouse wrote:I have followed this discussion with interest. In the 1980s a “kata of jūdō for youths” (Shōnen jūdō no kata 少年柔道の形) was devised for the youth division at the Kōdōkan, but never officially approved: see Magara Hiroshi 真柄浩, Me de miru jūdō kyōshitsu 目で見る柔道教室 (Tōkyō: Nagaoka Shoten, 1992). It had three divisions, as follows:

    (1)  Shōnen atemi no kata 少年当身の形

    1.  mae-geri 前蹴  2.  ushiro-geri 後蹴  3.  migi- (hidari-) yoko-geri 右(左)横蹴  4.  hiza-geri 膝蹴5.  mae-tsuki 前突 6.  ushiro-tsuki 後突  7.  mae-uchi 前打  8.  ushiro-uchi 後打  9.  naname-uegiri 斜上切  10.  kōhō-tsuki 後方突  11.  kōhō-uchi 後方打  12.  naname-ue-uchi 斜上打

    (2)  Shōnen kime no kata 少年極の形

    (i)  idori 居取: 1.  ryōte-dori 両手取  2.  tsukkake 突掛  3.  suri-age 摺上  4.  yoko-uchi 横打 5.  kiri-kake 切掛  
    (ii) tachiai 立合: 1.  ryōte-dori 両手取  2.  tsuki-age 突上  3.  yoko-uchi 横打  4.  ke-age 蹴上  5.  ushiro-dori 後取

    (3)  Shōnen jū no kata 少年柔の形

    1.  tsukidashi 突出  2.  kata-oshi 肩押  3.  kata-mawashi 肩廻  4.  katate-dori 片手取 5.  katate-age 片手上
    Interesting, thanks.

    I don't see that there's any interesting in teaching such to kids these days, but I find this quite interesting. That would make a great introductory course to adults, too.

    johan smits

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by johan smits on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:57 pm

    Many mature judoka who are talented lament the little interest there is in judo kata. These kata for children seem to me to be an attempt to get kata reintroduced in regluar judo training. Start them as children in kata training and as adults they will not know any better.
    From that point of view it might be a good idea.

    About the idea of shinken (as in real sword). I feel the shime waza of judo, especially the hadakajime variants to be ' shinken ' techniques.


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    Stevens

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Stevens on Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:20 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:From what I understand, someone has a paper about this very topic in press ... so, patience.

    I read a recent paper about Shonen Judo no Kata. Very, very interesting information!! My questions: 1- are the atemi-waza like karate or like seiryuko zenyo kokumin no kata? 2- I read somewhere ((old) forum)?? about Jiro Nango creating this kata in 1940-1945. What is true.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:07 am

    Stevens wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:From what I understand, someone has a paper about this very topic in press ... so, patience.

    I read a recent paper about Shonen Judo no Kata. Very, very interesting information!! My questions: 1- are the atemi-waza like karate or like seiryuko zenyo kokumin no kata? 2- I read somewhere ((old) forum)?? about Jiro Nango creating this kata in 1940-1945. What is true.


    The solo atemi in Shônen-jûdô-no-kata are taken from Seiryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku, the atemi that appear in the partner exercise component are integrally taken from kime-no-kata and jû-no-kata.

    As pointed out correctly by Professor David Waterhouse in an earlier post, this kata was authored by Magara Hiroshi 真柄浩. Nangô Jirô did not create any known kata. Nangô Jirô 'ordered' the creation of Joshi jûdô goshinhô, but also did not author it himself.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:44 am

    O/T:

    Can I say it's nice to read these types of historical discussions again.

    JF is dead; long live JF Very Happy

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

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