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    Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

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    NBK

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by NBK on Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:26 pm

    johan smits wrote:Many mature judoka who are talented  lament the little interest there is in judo kata. These kata for children seem to me to be an attempt to get kata reintroduced in regluar judo training. Start them as children in kata training and as adults they will not know any better.
    From that point of view it might be a good idea.

    About the idea of shinken (as in real sword).  I feel the shime waza of judo, especially the hadakajime variants to be ' shinken ' techniques.

    Happy landings.
    I think you're right on all points. I've not looked closely at the book (I think there's a copy in a box somewhere in my apt) but on the face of it, Magara sensei seemed interested in doing just that.

    But I've had pretty much the same discussion with some senior sensei at the KDK. My question was regarding introduction similar kata to heighten interest in kata in youth and foster some ability and interest (maybe even in parents) in self defense, which would seem to be a draw to some youth, even in Japan.

    It is not possible to describe how little interest there was on the part of anyone I talked to in such an effort. 'Zero' does not state it well enough.

    NBK
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    finarashi

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by finarashi on Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:08 pm

    NBK wrote:
    johan smits wrote:Many mature judoka who are talented  lament the little interest there is in judo kata. These kata for children seem to me to be an attempt to get kata reintroduced in regluar judo training. Start them as children in kata training and as adults they will not know any better.
    From that point of view it might be a good idea.

    About the idea of shinken (as in real sword).  I feel the shime waza of judo, especially the hadakajime variants to be ' shinken ' techniques.

    Happy landings.
    I think you're right on all points.  I've not looked closely at the book (I think there's a copy in a box somewhere in my apt) but on the face of it, Magara sensei seemed interested in doing just that.

    But I've had pretty much the same discussion with some senior sensei at the KDK.  My question was regarding introduction similar kata to heighten interest in kata in youth and foster some ability and interest (maybe even in parents) in self defense, which would seem to be a draw to some youth, even in Japan.

    It is not possible to describe how little interest there was on the part of anyone I talked to in such an effort.  'Zero' does not state it well enough.

    NBK
    Even IJF has had some self-defence related events. To me the question is at what stage of judo career should one start self-defence training. Now it is set at somewhere after 5+ years when one is +20 years. From real world point of view I always added these with adult beginners. Things like;
    - free others grip
    - do koshi-waza if held
    - avoid kick and do ashi-waza
    are simple and can be integrated easily

    The real problem in teaching realistic self defence is whether you are willing to hurt your attacker or not. For Kodokan Judo the part about hurting someone does not fit.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:45 pm

    finarashi wrote:
    Even IJF has had some self-defence related events. To me the question is at what stage of judo career should one start self-defence training. Now it is set at somewhere after 5+ years when one is +20 years. From real world point of view I always added these with adult beginners. Things like;
    - free others grip
    - do koshi-waza if held
    - avoid kick and do ashi-waza
    are simple and can be integrated easily

    The real problem in teaching realistic self defence is whether you are willing to hurt your attacker or not. For Kodokan Judo the part about hurting someone does not fit.

    I am not sure if I am following you. Why would "self-defence training" need to wait until 5 years after one has started jûdô ? That rationale also seems to imply that jûdô itself is not self-defense ? I thought that jûdô WAS self-defense, in addition to physical and mental training. Why self-defense cannot be taught from day 1 I do not understand, and neither do I understand why someone would need to be ovr 20. In fact self-defense training can be started even before ukemi skills. I have taught jûdô self-defense to kids without any prior jûdô experience, for example in jûdô introduction seminar, and it works very good in kids from approx. age 8. Age 6 is often a bit too young. Kanô's chef d'oeuvre, Seiryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku was intended literally as "jûdô for all" to be taught in schools to people of all level. It isn't exactly MMA, but it is a start. Movements from kime-shiki also work partiularly well; no throws, well controlled, basic, but the teaching goes further than the actual techniques. They are appropriate to teach kids from day one all about jû and how you deal in self-defense with an attacker in a gô way vs. a jû way. In addition, basic yet essential concepts such as tai-sabaki and use of the hara can be taught from day one.

    Today we have many clubs that teach jûdô competition as a sport to white belt little kids, but one could not teach self-defense ? I find this an awkward evolution, just like I find it an awkward evolution that jûdô seems to imply the competitive sport, and that jûdô self-defense is something entirely different. I always taught that everything we do in jûdô is self-defense and that randori itself is training for self-defense, i.e. swift, correct application of jûdô techniques as reponse or in various opportunities


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    finarashi

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by finarashi on Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:24 am

    100 % agree with you CK. I tried to say that I personally have always teached from day 1 also self defence aspects. By clearly stating that this you can use in self defence the beginners understand what they are learning.
    My experience is that often the arbitary limits of after 5+ years or when one is +20 years seem to come up. So this is my experience as general response not my own thoughts.


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    fredlinux

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by fredlinux on Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:52 am

    Shōnen Jūdō-no-kata [“Forms of Jūdō for Juveniles”] ―an experimental Japanese teaching approach to Jūdō skill acquisition in children considered from a historic-pedagogical perspective – part I
    Carl  De Crée
    Journal of Combat Sports and Martial Arts 2013; 4(1):1-13
    ICID: 1073618
    IC™ Value: 2.40
    DOI: 10.5604/20815735.1073618

    http://combatsports.edu.pl/abstracted.php?level=4&id_issue=869223


    Shōnen Jūdō-no-kata [“Forms of Jūdō for Juveniles”] ―an experimental Japanese teaching approach to Jūdō skill acquisition in children considered from a historic-pedagogical perspective – part II
    Carl  De Crée
    Journal of Combat Sports and Martial Arts 2013; 4(2):95-111
    ICID: 1090653
    IC™ Value: 2.40
    DOI: 10.5604/20815735.1090653

    http://combatsports.edu.pl/abstracted.php?level=4&id_issue=871757
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    Stevens

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Stevens on Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:54 am

    fredlinux wrote:Shōnen Jūdō-no-kata [“Forms of Jūdō for Juveniles”] ―an experimental Japanese teaching approach to Jūdō skill acquisition in children considered from a historic-pedagogical perspective – part I
    Carl  De Crée
    Journal of Combat Sports and Martial Arts 2013; 4(1):1-13
    ICID: 1073618
    IC™ Value: 2.40
    DOI: 10.5604/20815735.1073618

    http://combatsports.edu.pl/abstracted.php?level=4&id_issue=869223


    Shōnen Jūdō-no-kata [“Forms of Jūdō for Juveniles”] ―an experimental Japanese teaching approach to Jūdō skill acquisition in children considered from a historic-pedagogical perspective – part II
    Carl  De Crée
    Journal of Combat Sports and Martial Arts 2013; 4(2):95-111
    ICID: 1090653
    IC™ Value: 2.40
    DOI: 10.5604/20815735.1090653

    http://combatsports.edu.pl/abstracted.php?level=4&id_issue=871757

    1- It says it involves randori?? I only see a tabel (page 106) with Atemi-Waza, Ju-Waza and Kime-Waza (together 27 waza).

    2- At page 107 i read about 22 waza, what do i mis or is it a typo/wrong counting??

    3- In the book of this topic post no.1 it says something about a Randor no Kata, looks/reads like the German Rensa Kata, is it?
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:21 am

    Stevens wrote:

    1- It says it involves randori?? I only see a tabel (page 106) with Atemi-Waza, Ju-Waza and Kime-Waza (together 27 waza).

    2- At page 107 i read about 22 waza, what do i mis or is it a typo/wrong counting??

    3- In the book of this topic post no.1 it says something about a Randor no Kata, looks/reads like the German Rensa Kata, is it?

    It seems to me that what the author might mean is that the creator, Magara Hiroshi, integrates both randori and kata in his teaching pedagogy for children. He didn't have to 'develop' randori, since it already existed and is widely practised by children who do jûdô. It's different for kata. The existing kata are not entirely suited for children. Nage-no-kata, contains techniques such as kata-guruma in the first three series, and even more dramatic sutemi in the last two series that are too advanced for children to do properly. So, what Magara did was establish a kata specially for children with moves that can safely be performed by children and that are not high impact.

    I think the number you mention is a typo. From what I understand, this journal moved to a new publisher last year, which resulted in new instructions for authors, after most authors sent in their manuscripts and had them accepted. In consequence the editorial office amended all kinds of things in the manuscripts they had received from authors. This gave them much extra work and time constraints. To alleviate these constraints they skipped an important step in the normal editorial process for scholarly journals, i.e. send the authors galley proofs for correction. Because of that also many of the manuscripts still contain some grammar mistakes too.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Stevens

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    Re: Shinken no kata, a reduced Ju no Kata, and a Randori no kata

    Post by Stevens on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:40 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:

    1- It says it involves randori?? I only see a tabel (page 106) with Atemi-Waza, Ju-Waza and Kime-Waza (together 27 waza).

    2- At page 107 i read about 22 waza, what do i mis or is it a typo/wrong counting??

    3- In the book of this topic post no.1 it says something about a Randor no Kata, looks/reads like the German Rensa Kata, is it?

    It seems to me that what the author might mean is that the creator, Magara Hiroshi, integrates both randori and kata in his teaching pedagogy for children. He didn't have to 'develop' randori, since it already existed and is widely practised by children who do jûdô. It's different for kata. The existing kata are not entirely suited for children. Nage-no-kata, contains techniques such as kata-guruma in the first three series, and even more dramatic sutemi in the last two series that are too advanced for children to do properly. So, what Magara did was establish a kata specially for children with moves that can safely be performed by children and that are not high impact.

    I think the number you mention is a typo. From what I understand, this journal moved to a new publisher last year, which resulted in new instructions for authors, after most authors sent in their manuscripts and had them accepted. In consequence the editorial office amended all kinds of things in the manuscripts they had received from authors. This gave them much extra work and time constraints. To alleviate these constraints they skipped an important step in the normal editorial process for scholarly journals, i.e. send the authors galley proofs for correction. Because of that also many of the manuscripts still contain some grammar mistakes too.

    Thank you for the explanation! We move on with the study of judo. The forum is more worth than our national judo federation or the publications in Dutch.

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