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    Managing Knee pain

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    Carlo

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    Managing Knee pain

    Post by Carlo on Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:02 pm

    I don't seem to of had much luck this year. I've had a lot of pain in my shoulders from an over enthusiastic press up session earlier in the year, and both my knees are giving me grief.
    I've been seeing my physio and my shoulders are almost back to normal, but my knees are still playing up.

    This morning my knees were really sore and walking was slow and uncomfortable.

    Anyway, what I wanted to ask is, what do you guys that have problems with knee pain do to keep yourselves active and on the mat?

    Tomorrow I have a four hour course with Jane Bridge and I don't want to miss it.

    I was thinking of Ibuprofen and knee supports.

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    Stacey

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Stacey on Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:52 am

    SAMe took care of all the "broken glass" feeling in my knees. I also use neoprene sleeves minimum to keep the joints warm. I tape my left where the fibula hits the tibia in a particular direction or I can't walk on the thing.

    I've been off lately because of a slight tear to the ACL and the recommendation taht I get a hinged knee brace. I'm trying to get in with a doc further east of here who'll take my concerns, and the snapping cartilage seriously so that maybe I can get back on the mat without a knee brace, threat of tearign the whole ACL, and without so much discomfort. My quads have really atrophied.

    I would pay attention to RICE - rest, ice, compression and elevation. After the workout, make sure you ice it plenty and get it elevated. Keep with the compression and don't make more demands of it.

    I also prefer Aleve or Motrin (for me, it's Aleve) for the anti-inflammatory properties.
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by afulldeck on Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:24 am

    About 10 years ago, I started to have issues with my knees, not being able to stand after newaza, sometimes knees would lock up etc. Then after a two day sambo event, I found myself in such a bad situation I couldn't walk to the car. This was confusing because I didn't have an injury. Went to the doctor's... he said nothing useful (you'll just have to live with it was the theme). Went to physio...no relief either.

    After some thought, I bought heavy duty volleyball knee pads to wear during judo. Over a number of weeks, my knees improved. They have been good ever since I started this practice.  I've since bought dozen of pairs of volleyball knee pads and at the first sign of wear they get replaced.


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Q mystic on Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:59 am

    I used to have what felt like bruised knees, nothing serious tho, just annoying, so I went out and bought some regular, thick cushion knee pads which have helped big time.

    Tho, my pain was from not being on the mat enuff, whereas your's might be from too much.


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    Carlo

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Carlo on Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:40 am

    Thanks for your replies.

    It sounds like I'm doing the right thing with the anti-inflammatorys and neoprene knee supports. I think I'm going to need plenty of RICE afterwards though.

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:19 pm

    Carlo wrote:I don't seem to of had much luck this year. I've had a lot of pain in my shoulders from an over enthusiastic press up session earlier in the year, and both my knees are giving me grief.
    I've been seeing my physio and my shoulders are almost back to normal, but my knees are still playing up.

    This morning my knees were really sore and walking was slow and uncomfortable.

    Anyway, what I wanted to ask is, what do you guys that have problems with knee pain do to keep yourselves active and on the mat?

    Tomorrow I have a four hour course with Jane Bridge and I don't want to miss it.

    I was thinking of Ibuprofen and knee supports.

    Wow, and I thought that the JudoForum supreme leadership came with an immortal body !

    The knees together with the shoulder is a complex joint, not just complex in the way it is built, but complex in terms of the different kind of injuries and problems that can affect it. Consequently it is no surprise realizing that properly treating it can be a challenge.

    It is not possible to provide a sensible response based on the information provided. For example, one can't even say if it is an injury, an acute injury, a chronic injury or an underlying disease such as osteoarthritis. This urge for details is not made frivolously reflects an important point, namely that optimal treatment will depend on the type of injury. With such a complex joint it is not the best strategy to just try out things without at least having a 'likely' diagnosis. In your case, I have no idea whether the problem is osseous, cartilagenous, muscular, ligamentous, bursa-related, systematic. The problem could be innocent, or ... as a matter of speaking, just to make a point ... it could be a symptom of a potentially fatal disease; as said, I am just trying to make a point.

    My impression is that the approach you are exploring is one of ... if it doesn't help it doesn't harm. Whether that approach is wise is hard to say. Ibuprofen probably won't do much harm to your knee, although a concentration high enough to make a difference might cause a stomach bleeding if one is really unlucky, or kidney or liver problems. In >90% cases, it won't, but some people belong to the other group ...

    Even if you feel that you can't be of much help since you are unable to diagnose or specify the problem further as suggested, you can do more. You could attempt to describe the kind of discomfort. Is is discomfort or pain. What movements hurt the most; is it hard to walk stairs up or down ?  Is it the worst in the morning or evening ?  Where precisely is it located ?  You might want to go on the Internet find a picture of a knee and draw arrows on it and post it to give a more accurate idea.

    How long have you had it ?  Did it happen suddenly out of the blue or not ?  When did you first have it ?  During training or after waking up ?  Are the problems in your knees unrelated to those in your shoulders or not ? If one has underlying osteoarthritis or something similar, then they are not unrelated. So really, much, much, much more detail. Think of yourself as if you were writing a CK post ...


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    Carlo

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Carlo on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:56 pm

    Hi CK,

    I've had the problem with my right knee for a few months now. I don't know how I did it, I just remember it swelling up and being painful on the outside of the knee. The swelling has gone down now, but it is still painful to run and especially when walking up stairs.
    My physio seems to think it is more to do with the tendons from the calf muscle than the knee it's self.

    My left knee I injured 1 1/2 weeks ago during randori. Somehow I managed to bend it backwards too far. No twisting was involved, but I felt something go. No real pain at the time until I tried to carry on, then it was quite a sharp when the leg was straightened.
    The physio checked the knee and said it was quite loose and thinks I may have stretched the PCL.

    I strapped both knees up and got through yesterdays session without too much discomfort. Both knees were a bit sore when I finished, but they don't feel any worse for it today.

    I'm going to see my GP this week to see what he thinks.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:01 am

    Carlo wrote:Hi CK,

    I've had the problem with my right knee for a few months now. I don't know how I did it, I just remember it swelling up and being painful on the outside of the knee. The swelling has gone down now, but it is still painful to run and especially when walking up stairs.
    My physio seems to think it is more to do with the tendons from the calf muscle than the knee it's self.

    My left knee I injured 1 1/2 weeks ago during randori. Somehow I managed to bend it backwards too far. No twisting was involved, but I felt something go. No real pain at the time until I tried to carry on, then it was quite a sharp when the leg was straightened.
    The physio checked the knee and said it was quite loose and thinks I may have stretched the PCL.

    I strapped both knees up and got through yesterdays session without too much discomfort. Both knees were a bit sore when I finished, but they don't feel any worse for it today.

    I'm going to see my GP this week to see what he thinks.
    - If you have actual swelling, it likely has nothing to do with tendons. Tendons have very poor blood supply hence produce virtually no swelling.
    - It is anatomically not really possible to 'stretch' your PCL. You can overstretch and rupture the ACL, the MCL, LCL, but not the PCL. Injuries to the PCL normally only arise as secondary phenomenon to devastating injuries such as an actual knee dislocation caused by car accidents or horseback riding accidents or other events that involve the kind of humongous force that exceeds the force a human can produce.

    What you describe sounds more like tear of either the proximal attachment of the popliteus or gastrocnemius where the tendon goes over in the muscle.

    There is no treatment possible except for limiting stretching, and applying ointment that is applied with lengthy, somewhat uncomfortable deep friction massage until the point where the skin becomes irritated an reddish.

    It's not an injury you will get rid of easily. At best 6 weeks if you're in really good shape and obsessively do what I said, more realistically 12 weeks though.


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    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    Carlo

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Carlo on Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:23 pm

    Hi CK, thanks for your reply.

    I have just googled 'popliteus' and 'gastrocnemius', just to see what they were. Judging by the position of the popliteus, I would guess that is where the problem is.

    It sounds like the deep massage my Physio gave me seemed to be the right thing to do. It was very painful, so she must of hit the spot.
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    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:15 am

    Many times the issue felt in the kne is caused osomewhere else near it.

    Between years of youthfull kicking and 16 of Ju Jutsu and a nasy knee bar had my left knee in a real bad state 4 years ago.

    After the swlling went down,talking with other trainers and a Doctor I know, the plan was to work the area slowly and see of it got better or worse. It got better and I am fully functioning in that knee but the tendons do get a bit sore from time to time and it usually goes away wehen I work the are.

    1 Leg Deadlifts with a Kettlebell using the opposite hand as the leg you work, Squat rows with the LifelineUSA Jungle Gym, you go past 90, ass to calf but you are supported by your arms holding the handles, so it's very safe compared to doing that unsupported (and that has a lot to do with how you grew up. I.E. I know old Cambodian guys who sit on their ankles and old white guys who can barly bend past 120, let alone 90. (Like the TRX only out years before) Traction Knee Extennsions with a Rubber band abd a drill called "Knickerbachers" where you sit where your feet are on the floor and your knees are at 90degrees. {lace you fist, palms down together between your knees and push your knees into them. Now rotate your feet left and right from the heels until you can't stand it
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    Carlo

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Carlo on Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:04 am

    Finally got my results from an MRI I had a couple of weeks ago. Turns out I've torn my ACL, not sure how badly yet, but will find out when I see the consultant.
    Was really hoping for better news.

    Rightintheface

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Rightintheface on Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:24 am

    So sorry about your injury.
    For what it's worth, I'm a huge proponent of fish oil and glucosamine/chondroitin. Won't un-tear an ACL though.
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    Carlo

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Carlo on Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:37 am

    Thanks RITF, good to see you here by the way.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Managing Knee pain

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:46 am

    Carlo wrote:Finally got my results from an MRI I had a couple of weeks ago. Turns out I've torn my ACL, not sure how badly yet, but will find out when I see the consultant.
    Was really hoping for better news.
    That's not good news, sorry to hear. But you see it certainly was not the PCL. Let us know if and when you plan on having the surgery. Keep up the hope and take care.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

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