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    Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

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    Quicksilver

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    Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by Quicksilver on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:21 pm

    Greetings,

    I've a technical query regarding an aspect of koshi guruma- specifically, the function of the arm around uke's neck- on which multiple knowledgeable people who I've asked in person have given distinctly different opinions and teach in correspondingly different ways, and so have come here looking for more information.

    Essentially, either- a) the arm should lock closely around uke's neck, with the shoulder, upper- and forearm applying pressure in a manner very like a neck lock, but technically not a complete one and so it is therefore legal, gives tori significantly more control of uke and increases effectiveness and efficiency of the throw as compared to b) tori's arm should not lock around uke's neck in this manner because it does in fact put sufficient pressure on the neck to qualify as a neck lock or crank, and thus has safety ramifications and if used in competition may get tori penalised; adequate control can still be achieved without difficulty by keeping the arm firm with the hand near uke's shoulder, and this is technically more correct in Judo.

    A minor confusion perhaps, but it seems mechanically and competition-legally significant, and therefore worth asking about. Smile Opinions, explanations or otherwise additional information would be much appreciated.

    Regards.

    Ryvai

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:49 pm

    Quicksilver wrote:Greetings,

    I've a technical query regarding an aspect of koshi guruma- specifically, the function of the arm around uke's neck- on which multiple knowledgeable people who I've asked in person have given distinctly different opinions and teach in correspondingly different ways, and so have come here looking for more information.

    Essentially, either- a) the arm should lock closely around uke's neck, with the shoulder, upper- and forearm applying pressure in a manner very like a neck lock, but technically not a complete one and so it is therefore legal, gives tori significantly more control of uke and increases effectiveness and efficiency of the throw as compared to b) tori's arm should not lock around uke's neck in this manner because it does in fact put sufficient pressure on the neck to qualify as a neck lock or crank, and thus has safety ramifications and if used in competition may get tori penalised; adequate control can still be achieved without difficulty by keeping the arm firm with the hand near uke's shoulder, and this is technically more correct in Judo.

    A minor confusion perhaps, but it seems mechanically and competition-legally significant, and therefore worth asking about. Smile Opinions, explanations or otherwise additional information would be much appreciated.

    Regards.
    I've seen so many different variations to this throw I dont know where to begin. It seems that amongst sensei there is as many oppinions as there are variations in ne-waza. However, there is a very defined way of performing Koshi-guruma explained in the book of Daigo-sensei, Kodokan Throwing Techniques, I really recommend bying it.

    The way we teach the kids in the dojo this throw is to put your hand loosely on the shoulder of uke. When the stage of kake begins Tori kind of slides the hand forward around the neck of uke, not unlike how many use their hand in makikomi, and therefore protects the head of uke when falling towards the mat. The reason we teach it this way is for safety reasons. A lot of the kids we have seen are grasping the gi with the hand around the head. With poor kuzushi and stable posture the kids fall to the ground, still holding the gi, which pushes the head of uke directly, headfirst, towards the tatami.

    Keep in mind, if Tori grasps the back of the gi of uke, pulls it, and throws around the hip, the throw becomes a henka of tsurikomi-goshi, not Koshi-guruma. Koshi (hip), Guruma (wheel). Uke is supposed to be wheeled around the hip, not pulled around like tsurikomi-goshi.

    I've also seen different variations which has been called Kubi-nage, I have no idea how to perform Kubi-nage and I cant find any reference to it. I would greatly appreciate if someone could elaborate shortly about the origin and how to perform a Kubi-nage.

    Fritz

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by Fritz on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:33 pm

    Ryvai wrote:I've also seen different variations which has been called Kubi-nage, I have no idea how to perform Kubi-nage and I cant find any reference to it. I would greatly appreciate if someone could elaborate shortly about the origin and how to perform a Kubi-nage.
    Kawaishi mentioned Kubi-Nage, you found it in his book i think.
    For me "Kubi-Nage" is the variant of Koshi-Kuruma, where Toris arm is around Ukes neck, like
    described in the first posting.


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    _Fritz_

    BillC

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by BillC on Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:43 pm

    It's not about the head, it's about the ass ... but among human beings these two things are commonly confused.

    P.S. "Grab the neck and fall down" is standard 8 year old judo ... if you can call it judo ... which is why most of what is taught as judo is wasted on 8 year olds ... that so many adults get stuck there is perhaps understandable considering the aforementioned confusion ... so-called kubi nage joins so-called makikomi as a cul-de-sac of those chicken excrement techniques that unstudied judo beginners sometimes get lost in for years.


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    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    Beef Supreme

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by Beef Supreme on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:28 pm

    It’s all about the level of control. In the original idea of judo/jujutsu, you’re supposed to use opponent’s energy i.e. his movement forward as he’s trying to push you away (or cut you in half with his sword). In such scenario his movement is much more dedicated and so your hand around his neck is there only to direct his movement over your hip. Hence, no need to lock your hand over his neck. I believe that would be in fact dangerous both for you and your partner.

    In modern judo, however, both contestants are aware what happens when one tries a dedicated attack so to control the opponent when executing a throw one has to add some of his strength into the techniques. Hence, there’s a need to lock a neck and push downward with the hand. If you tried just putting the hand around like in the example above, the opponent could simply slip away…and counterattack, of course.

    I also noticed the difference when I moved from self-defense to sport judo/jujutsu.

    I hope this helped. Cheers

    Tai-Jutsu

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by Tai-Jutsu on Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:12 pm

    We do it 2 ways.

    One is that we shoot the arm out past his trap and then close with a semi strait arm around the back of the nech from the creae between your pectoral ans your front deltoid like closing them in a door. Kind of Makikomish if you will? I refer to this as the "shoulder crush" in class.

    The other is to use the same clamping with the pit of the elbow at the back of their neck like you use under their arm in Ippon So Nage.

    We teach both. I tend to use the first more when using it against forward action, a punch or a weapon attack wheras I tend to use the second when we are gripping up or iin a clinch in Randori. I call this in class the Dog Bite because when I use that clamp in Ippon Seo Nage I tell them it's like a Pit bull's jaws and if you don;t get the throw, we turn to his clamped arm side and towards his back and either use it for an Ude Garame or an Osoto Gari varient with a hyper extended arm.

    This is all Ju Jutsu though, hene there is probaly Japanese termenology for a lot of this I simply do not know. My Sensei was not too hung up on Japanese terminology and of the 2 styles we did, the strait link to Japan style of Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutsu Kodo Kai was not to big on telling you terminolgy and liked to teach with very little talking. They show you, you try it, they make a correction or 2, again with very little oral instruction and you Shugyo.

    This is another thing I think is great about Judo, you guys seem to teach more of the Japanese terminology, another point I make to my sons. He can do Judo, go to another country and walk into a Dojo where he and the Sensei do not speak the same language but because you have the Japanese terminology, he can bow in and understand what he is to do.

    From there, he can bridge gaps of culture and language and understand others better and therfore understand himself better.

    sodo

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by sodo on Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:37 pm

    BillC wrote:It's not about the head, it's about the ass ... but among human beings these two things are commonly confused.

    P.S. "Grab the neck and fall down" is standard 8 year old judo ... if you can call it judo ... which is why most of what is taught as judo is wasted on 8 year olds ... that so many adults get stuck there is perhaps understandable considering the aforementioned confusion ... so-called kubi nage joins so-called makikomi as a cul-de-sac of those chicken excrement techniques that unstudied judo beginners sometimes get lost in for years.

    I could not have put it more diplomatically myself Twisted Evil 

    atb

    sodo


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    Ricebale

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:24 pm

    sodo wrote:
    BillC wrote:It's not about the head, it's about the ass ... but among human beings these two things are commonly confused.

    P.S. "Grab the neck and fall down" is standard 8 year old judo ... if you can call it judo ... which is why most of what is taught as judo is wasted on 8 year olds ... that so many adults get stuck there is perhaps understandable considering the aforementioned confusion ... so-called kubi nage joins so-called makikomi as a cul-de-sac of those chicken excrement techniques that unstudied judo beginners sometimes get lost in for years.
    I could not have put it more diplomatically myself Twisted Evil 

    atb

    sodo


    Kubi Nage without the hips, rare skill if I ever see a judoka that can hit this Laughing 

    doesn't work on an opponent that won't bend over for you though

    (aka wrestling headlock sag)

    BillC

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by BillC on Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:31 am

    Ricebale wrote:

    Kubi Nage without the hips, rare skill if I ever see a judoka that can hit this Laughing 

    doesn't work on an opponent that won't bend over for you though

    (aka wrestling headlock sag)
    I guess you are saying that kubinage and koshiguruma are two different things ... I'd probably agree but I don't like "name the throw" threads and I suspect I am not alone.

    The video makes an excellent point ... yes ... even for judoka. Boom. Right into kesa gatame. "Short time on the clock" is noted. The technique itself probably would not score ippon and end the match ... but if time is short and a player is behind then "knock down and pin" becomes an excellent strategy. Knock down, pin, negate the match clock, win on the osaekomi clock.

    From that perspective should probably be practiced among active competitors ... along with the "subway bump" and a few others.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    sodo

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by sodo on Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:19 am

    Just do Koshi Guruma the way this guy does it Very Happy 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiAyLpEqFaQ

    atb

    sodo


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    Ricebale

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:39 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:

    Kubi Nage without the hips, rare skill if I ever see a judoka that can hit this Laughing 

    doesn't work on an opponent that won't bend over for you though

    (aka wrestling headlock sag)
    I guess you are saying that kubinage and koshiguruma are two different things ... I'd probably agree but I don't like "name the throw" threads and I suspect I am not alone.

    The video makes an excellent point ... yes ... even for judoka.  Boom.  Right into kesa gatame.  "Short time on the clock" is noted.  The technique itself probably would not score ippon and end the match ... but if time is short and a player is behind then "knock down and pin" becomes an excellent strategy.  Knock down, pin, negate the match clock, win on the osaekomi clock.

    From that perspective should probably be practiced among active competitors ... along with the "subway bump" and a few others.
    I always lose the "name thst throw" comps lol so no contest there.

    I have a Sandan mate who trains with me sometimes, he's one of those guys that is reasonably fluent in Japanese and goes there to train and compete a lot. I ask him to translate my variations as I find that Judo classification system fascinating, really helps sometimes to compartment the techniques in such a way that wrestling does not do very well.

    My Sandan friend finds my variations (which btw are standard in wrestling) also fascinating in the way the posture and leverage is exploited.

    The above tech I have only ever scored wazari with but got to ipoon in the pin as the kesa is really tight on landing. In my own classes I teach both hips in koshi garuma and this variation but not together, I do the standard hips through when I cover O Goshi as in my view they have similar mechanics.

    With the variation I teach that off a 2 on one as in the vid or nore often off a successful snap down from head or jacket control, the technical aspect is easier to set up as a leg attack counter.

    Cheers

    Hanon

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by Hanon on Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:56 am

    Quicksilver wrote:Greetings,

    I've a technical query regarding an aspect of koshi guruma- specifically, the function of the arm around uke's neck- on which multiple knowledgeable people who I've asked in person have given distinctly different opinions and teach in correspondingly different ways, and so have come here looking for more information.

    Essentially, either- a) the arm should lock closely around uke's neck, with the shoulder, upper- and forearm applying pressure in a manner very like a neck lock, but technically not a complete one and so it is therefore legal, gives tori significantly more control of uke and increases effectiveness and efficiency of the throw as compared to b) tori's arm should not lock around uke's neck in this manner because it does in fact put sufficient pressure on the neck to qualify as a neck lock or crank, and thus has safety ramifications and if used in competition may get tori penalised; adequate control can still be achieved without difficulty by keeping the arm firm with the hand near uke's shoulder, and this is technically more correct in Judo.

    A minor confusion perhaps, but it seems mechanically and competition-legally significant, and therefore worth asking about. Smile Opinions, explanations or otherwise additional information would be much appreciated.

    Regards.
    Hi,

    If you look for black and white answers in judo you will chase your tail to the end of time. Judo is a physical human endeavour that should be tailored to each individuals body and even psychological type or character.. There are, of course, what we call 'the gokyo', The canon of judo waza.

    Even within this canon it is not about dotting punctuation that always counts BUT are the principles of that specific throw being practiced and fulfilled.

    Koshi guruma. Lets explore together. A key to how this throw is performed is presented in its name, its a kuruma waza, all kuruma waza have a distinct action, a distinct principle if you like.

    Hell to write on yet so easy to demonstrate, however press on. The hip area or hara is the area that generates the power for kuruma waza and indeed is generally the focal point of the throws as it becomes the axes that the wheel is then attached to. Ones feet and hands are the circumference of the wheel.

    In terms of koshi guruma we need to achieve uke wheeling over our hips. To this end the hand position and amount of work performed by the hands is important. Take your right hand to the top back of the neck of uke, don't stretch nor straighten your Right arm if you will be either arm locked or uke will turn in under your arm and use your position against you. Hold the back of ukes, gi thumb inside, with your hand relaxed and Right elbow relaxed prepared to repel any attack uke may make.
    What you, as tori, need to achieve is 'control of uke head' This means your hands are forming that outer circle of the wheel, the kuruma.

    When you turn in for ogoshi your feet are more or less directly facing the same direction as Uke feet and you bend at the knees and blah blah blah. In koshi guruma there is little if any 'lift' (height will determine this) its a wheeling action made by the action of your hip placement and use of your right hand to wheel uke around-over your hips.
    In Ogoshi ones hips remain squarely on to uke, in koshi gurum tori's hips pass through a tad so uke is almost coming across part of the back of tori. One could write that one of toris buttocks (Right) passes through and not remains on front to form a block for the action of that wheel. This is where the kuruma action takes place. If the Right hand of tori is weak and does not have control over Uke the throw will fail. If the hara is not placed in the correct position, the throw will fail. It is not an easy waza to pull of if performed correctly, and that's generally a very big IF.

    One must examine the principle of kuruma waza. I like to teach O guruma as the first kuruma waza to introduce tori to the idea of a whirling throw.

    It is impossible to make a slow kuruma, it is the speed of entry and the body action that produces that wheeling action and this cannot be performed slowly.

    If we take a piece of paper and draw a large circle and a smaller circle inside that large circle this is a kuruma waza. The hands make the outer circle while the hips or hara make the inner circle, the axis for the throw. This is the same even for Yoko guruma! Though yoko guruma is a yoko sutemi waza that wheeling action is still to be achieved by the action of the hands and the hips, the added advantage in the yoko guruma is the power in the throw comes from the whole of the body.

    So, examine first the o guruma, ensure tori does not push ukes hips back with his leg BUT wheels uke around that outstretched leg, the leg is the fulcrum or pivot-axis for the hands to wheel uke over, velocity is needed to ensure the kuruma is a kuruma and not a pull over the leg.
    Once the o guruma is studied it is much easier to begin with the koshi guruma, kata guruma etc.

    The Right arm of tori cannot grip past the spine of uke as this then becomes holding the same side of the gi and one cannot do that.

    This is a very misused waza by children who in actual fact are not performing a real koshi guruma but more of an illegal kubi nage. Kids naturally hold uke completely around the neck, its what they do in the play ground before they ever hear of judo! In judo this is a major cause for broken clavicles. Tori dives the poor Right shoulder of uke into the mat and snap. Its a vital waza in self defence though.

    If you where confused before I guess you are now snookered!

    Best wishes,

    Mike


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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

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    DougNZ

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    Re: Koshi guruma- a technical maybe-detail

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:21 am

    Outstanding explanation, thank you, Hanon. You really should write more often!

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