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    My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:49 pm

    [quote="genetic judoka"]
    nomoremondays wrote:
    frankly because of my long legs I've always had a strong preference for fighting from my back, so that was a non issue. what took the most focus for me was not giving up my back like I could safely do in judo, and keeping people's back when I got it instead of transitioning to something else like I would in judo because of shorter groundwork time.


    Jeez, you give up your back? When I was learning Judo that was suicide in my dojo...shudder...how things have changed. You need to do more BJJ.



    Last edited by Ben Reinhardt on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:53 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:so I went back again last night. it was an even better class than last week. we worked on some sneaky armbar entries, one of which I'd never seen before (and it's fast enough to work in judo), so that was pretty cool. the teacher was apparently impressed with the way I did it (he corrected a lot of people, but my application was supposedly "perfect"), which was a nice little ego boost. that ego boost was short lived though as I was invited to roll with the head instructor (who is my exact same weight). you know, I am quite aware that I am far from the best in the world on the ground. in fact very far from it. but I always thought I was good enough that nobody could just play with me. boy was I wrong. he wasn't even trying! granted I wasn't going 100% either (you don't show up to a judo club and try to throw the instructor with harai makikomi your first randori session), but he was going at it a lot less intensely. we went for a 7 minute round, and in those 7 minutes he used the same exact guard pass 4 times and it wasn't until the 5th attempt that I figured out how to block it, at which point he used a different one. I got one good half guard sweep in the entire time, and almost got a baseball bat choke in, but that's it. apparently I impressed him a little bit though with my submission defense, his commentary immediately after was that I was "strong as an ox with really good balance and a lot of heart." I don't have a fragile ego by any means (as evidenced by my willingness to put up videos to be torn apart), I went there because I wanted to get better on the ground, and the only way to do that is to work with people who are really good on the ground. so I think this is gonna be a really good experience for me. I look forward to continuing there.

    they are trying hard to talk me into showing up to their saturday stand up class. I'm considering it, but I have 2 reservations:

    first, I "teach" a class on saturday (by that I mean I run people ragged with a long warmup and then oversee/participate in an even longer randori session, so it's not exactly "teaching"), and their class starts an hour after mine ends, and runs for a few hours. if I go in, I'll be so tired I'll be worthless to my wife by the end of the day.

    second, their mats are thin. they have puzzle mats (at least it's the thicker ones), which I can take clean falls on all day long, but I'm not sure how clean of throws those guys will be doing. also I'm kinda well known locally for throwing really really hard (I was trained to throw for the 1970's definition of ippon), and I'm worried that I will suddenly become a lot less popular after I go in and bury people in the mat.

    but at the same time, they know I'm a judo black belt, and compared to some of them I suck on the ground (at least under their ruleset), I feel like in order to be a good ambassador for judo I should show that I at least kinda know what I'm doing standing. and even still, I feel like thinking along those lines is evidence that I have more of an ego than I'd like to admit.

    so what should I do? I kinda gotta figure this out by tomorrow morning.

    You need to get out more. There are plenty of judoka who could handle you like he did. This isn't a slam against the instructor, BTW.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:04 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:I guess this thread got resurrected.


    one thing that I'm finding out is playing to my disadvantage rolling at the end of class, is that I tend to subconsciously still follow judo rules on the ground. by that I mean I avoid doing any cross face stuff, I don't go for sleeve end grips, and I don't go after shoulder locks, or the chokes considered neck cranks under judo rules. also I find that when I have the opportunity to take someone's back I almost never go for it, because I'm used to that being a "get stood back up" position in judo. and I'm quickly realizing that the RNC is my least practiced technique, and I'm not terribly well practiced at defending it either.

    You know you can do other chokes from behind, besides Hadaka Jime? Like rolling gi chokes, rolling turnovers to pins, etc? I guess maybe you are talking about the classic "hooks" in position?

    Ben
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:09 pm

    hedgehogey wrote:Leglocks are a subject in and of themselves. There's a positional component to them, although people will bypass that and think of them as a quick and easy solution to not trying to pass guard, which is dumb.

    Here's what I think you're gonna have to remember here:

    Most submissions, especially the hip heavy ones are positions in and of themselves. As a judoka, you've probably been taught a lot of finishing attacks in groundwork: how to hit a sub quickly, how to turn them over right into a pin. But subs in BJJ aren't usually like that. Most of them involve a miniature positional battle ending with uke gradually losing tactical options. You've probably bypassed this aspect entirely, like a business traveler over flyover country. But BJJ is the scenic route.

    This is easiest to see in the omoplata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgRKs2EK3a8

    All of those guys put themselves in the omoplata "position" first before trying the omoplata submission itself and you can see that while all of them attacked succesfully, only one finished with the traditional omoplata submission.

    How does this affect you? After all, you might say, while the world's round, the field I plow is still flat and an armbar's still heels in, hug the arm, lever over the hip. But it makes all the diference in the world to your training. Once you get the not-fucking-up down (and it will take you longer than you think), try hanging out in these sub[mission]-positions. You'll find that if you don't rush towards the sub every time, you'll pullmore attacks because your finish will be less predictable. (So if you change your process from isolate arm--->swing hips--->grab belt and smash shoulder to isolate arm--->swing hips--->find best tactical option then your number of successes will increase).

    Great post for sure. It describes more of how I originally learned ne waza. Much more process oriented, more action reaction oriented, a kind of gradual boxing in of the opponent rather than a smash and grab approach.

    Can't say I was ever very good at it, but that sort of process is what I enjoyed a lot about BJJ classes I took.

    Ben
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    seatea

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by seatea on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:23 am

    hedgehogey wrote:Leglocks are a subject in and of themselves. There's a positional component to them, although people will bypass that and think of them as a quick and easy solution to not trying to pass guard, which is dumb.

    Here's what I think you're gonna have to remember here:

    Most submissions, especially the hip heavy ones are positions in and of themselves. As a judoka, you've probably been taught a lot of finishing attacks in groundwork: how to hit a sub quickly, how to turn them over right into a pin. But subs in BJJ aren't usually like that. Most of them involve a miniature positional battle ending with uke gradually losing tactical options. You've probably bypassed this aspect entirely, like a business traveler over flyover country. But BJJ is the scenic route.

    This is easiest to see in the omoplata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgRKs2EK3a8

    All of those guys put themselves in the omoplata "position" first before trying the omoplata submission itself and you can see that while all of them attacked succesfully, only one finished with the traditional omoplata submission.

    How does this affect you? After all, you might say, while the world's round, the field I plow is still flat and an armbar's still heels in, hug the arm, lever over the hip. But it makes all the diference in the world to your training. Once you get the not-fucking-up down (and it will take you longer than you think), try hanging out in these sub[mission]-positions. You'll find that if you don't rush towards the sub every time, you'll pullmore attacks because your finish will be less predictable. (So if you change your process from isolate arm--->swing hips--->grab belt and smash shoulder to isolate arm--->swing hips--->find best tactical option then your number of successes will increase).

    Excellent post.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:49 am

    I see this thread has gone pretty far since the last time I visited it.

    hedge, you bring up some good points. I am steadily learning that BJJ guys have very good sub defense, and don't make the mistakes commonly seen in judo. it's hard to just explode into armbars when people don't leave their arms hanging out there to be snatched up. in fact I've only landed a few armbars the whole time I've been going (often I'll land some in my first time working with someone, then they kinda figure out that I'm a mistake hunter, and they start being more careful). I have people who I've never worked with saying to me "you're that judo guy huh? I hear I need to be really careful about letting you get into side control because you're impossible to roll." I find it amusing how fast word spreads. but I've been catching people in the "near side" ude garami from kesa gatame pretty frequently, so apparently it's leaving a lasting impression. but your description about switching to a game of steadily removing my opponent's defensive options is spot on.

    and to be fair ben, I don't give up my back that much. it's one of those things that I'd do in judo while playing around, sort of to see what my training partners will do with it (put yourself in a bad position so you have to work out of it and learn in the process type thing). and I agree that I need to get out more. if I had top level judo newaza instruction available, I wouldn't need to do BJJ. and yes I am familiar with the other rear chokes, as those are the ones I have far more experience attacking with and defending against. the RNC just becomes far more effective and harder to defend when there's nothing preventing tori from pulling on uke's face to open up the neck. in judo there was zero risk of that. a lot of them seem to enjoy the way I go about choking people that go into the turtle. BJJ has attacks against the turtle as well, but they're nowhere near as explosive, or IMHO as effective as the ones found in judo.

    Wdax, you're quite right on all counts.

    what I find interesting is how skill levels vary from person to person. last week I choked out a purple belt twice and arm barred him once, then got choked out by a blue belt 10 minutes later. but then again I guess you can see the same thing in judo.

    all in all I am enjoying my time there tremendously. and if I didn't already have a lot of my time dedicated to judo classes, I'd be attending practice there more often.

    there NYCNewbie, there's more. you happy? Cool


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    hedgehogey

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by hedgehogey on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:49 am

    genetic judoka wrote:in fact I've only landed a few armbars the whole time I've been going (often I'll land some in my first time working with someone, then they kinda figure out that I'm a mistake hunter, and they start being more careful).


    Try just getting to the armbar position then finding the next option. Don't think "I have to armbar him!". While that sometimes works, it often burns out the muscles used. Just get there, advance along the armbar progression if he lets you, and if he doesn't, look at the next fork in the road. Maybe he raised his non-trapped side knee, so it's time to flower/pendulum sweep. Maybe he pulls his arm away entirely but his head's still trapped so it's time to weigh heavy on that leg and smash him with the crucifix guard. Maybe it's time to switch to the triangle position.


    if I had top level judo newaza instruction available, I wouldn't need to do BJJ.


    That depends on what you're doing newaza for. If you're looking to improve your newaza for judo shiai, then no. If you're looking to improve your newaza in both breadth and depth overall, then there's a lot of things found only in BJJ that you won't see anywhere else.


    BJJ has attacks against the turtle as well, but they're nowhere near as explosive, or IMHO as effective as the ones found in judo.


    It sounds like you're still stuck in finisher mode. BJJ rewards the backmount because it reduces uke's attacking options to close to zero. From that perspective and for that ruleset, you oughta start thinking of hooks in as equal to a finish. Having it is usually the end of the match, de facto if not de jure.
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    sodo

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:47 pm

    Hi hedgehogey,

    That depends on what you're doing newaza for. If you're looking to improve your newaza for judo shiai, then no. If you're looking to improve your newaza in both breadth and depth overall, then there's a lot of things found only in BJJ that you won't see anywhere else.


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    This is exactly the point I have been making since the beginning Very Happy

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    sodo


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    JudoStu

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:34 pm

    sodo wrote:Hi hedgehogey,

    That depends on what you're doing newaza for. If you're looking to improve your newaza for judo shiai, then no. If you're looking to improve your newaza in both breadth and depth overall, then there's a lot of things found only in BJJ that you won't see anywhere else.


    Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Where's the thumbs up smiley Very Happy Very Happy

    This is exactly the point I have been making since the beginning Very Happy

    atb


    sodo

    Hedge is spot on with what he said and i've said as much before in the previous Judo forum

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    genetic judoka

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:56 am

    for those of you that are still interested in this thread I figured I'd give an update. it's looking like I'll be competing in my first BJJ tournament next saturday. unless I face some kind of unforeseen technical difficulties, I will be competing in the blue belt division. my intention is to skip a majority of the judo classes for the next week and go over there instead, hopefully getting some last minute help on defending leg locks (the one thing that still worries me, though I've found most of the leg lock defense pretty intuitive thus far).

    and I realized I didn't really reply to the most recent posts in here. the reason I do BJJ is to improve my newaza overall. judo newaza thrives on explosiveness, speed, and surprise. BJJ newaza is more methodical, and more precise. will everything I learn in BJJ be of direct benefit to judo shiai? absolutely not. much of what I've learned thus far will not transfer over. but what will transfer over is the experience of working with people who specialize in an area of grappling that I'm weak in. plus learning to be more precise while doing explosive movements can't possibly hurt. a big part of why I'm doing BJJ is that's the only place one can still do some parts of "real" judo in competition (I know you can still do whatever you want in your club, that point need not be repeated).

    also I find that while I follow along as accurately as possible in the technical portions of the class, in 'rolling' at the end of class I find myself subconsciously more or less following judo protocol. by that I mean I avoid cross face stuff, and I don't tend to grab the inside of sleeves, etc. however that doesn't mean I stop the session after 5 seconds of inactivity, or get bewildered when someone tries a standing guard pass and no referee calls matte. also I'm focusing a lot more about being methodical in creating submission opportunities, and I will go for shoulder locks and stuff (I even pulled off a wrist lock recently).

    I feel like in doing things the way I'm doing them, I've found the closest thing possible to a happy medium. I really am getting the best of both worlds.


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:47 am

    I figured it was time for an update.

    so the tournament is tomorrow, and I gotta admit I'm nervous. more so than I've been before any judo tournament in recent memory. I am very much looking forward to it though. all the people I train with are of the belief that I'm gonna do great in the blue belt division, as I've been holding my own very well with the purple belts (landing lots of chokes, and a few armbars). and apparently I left a big impression when the brown belt who is my size (except built like the incredible hulk) took a nap after my well applied choke, and the next round I quickly swept and armbarred a fella who supposedly "never gets swept by anybody." and one of the purple belts said something that I got a real kick out of, something along the lines of: "over the years I've been choked hundreds if not thousands of times, including by many black belts, and the 2 times you've choked me are easily the tightest and fastest chokes I've ever been in, and surprisingly they didn't hurt at all."

    my concern for tomorrow is that I'm playing in the heavyweight division (which means over 215) and I've yet to do much work with anyone more than 20-30 lbs heavier than me. I don't wanna get crushed by some 300+ lb blue belt (supposing some exist outside the over 30 divisions).

    if all goes well I should have some videos to post, win or lose.


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    afulldeck

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by afulldeck on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:39 pm

    Good luck with the tournament. Remember your roots ..... (I saw in another thread your 6'5"--but you weigh only 215? Maybe its time to gain more weight Very Happy )


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    seatea

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by seatea on Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:35 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:I figured it was time for an update.

    so the tournament is tomorrow, and I gotta admit I'm nervous. more so than I've been before any judo tournament in recent memory. I am very much looking forward to it though. all the people I train with are of the belief that I'm gonna do great in the blue belt division, as I've been holding my own very well with the purple belts (landing lots of chokes, and a few armbars). and apparently I left a big impression when the brown belt who is my size (except built like the incredible hulk) took a nap after my well applied choke, and the next round I quickly swept and armbarred a fella who supposedly "never gets swept by anybody." and one of the purple belts said something that I got a real kick out of, something along the lines of: "over the years I've been choked hundreds if not thousands of times, including by many black belts, and the 2 times you've choked me are easily the tightest and fastest chokes I've ever been in, and surprisingly they didn't hurt at all."

    my concern for tomorrow is that I'm playing in the heavyweight division (which means over 215) and I've yet to do much work with anyone more than 20-30 lbs heavier than me. I don't wanna get crushed by some 300+ lb blue belt (supposing some exist outside the over 30 divisions).

    if all goes well I should have some videos to post, win or lose.

    As a judoka I think your size will play into your hands as there tends to be less guard pulling in the higher weight divisions.
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    OldeEnglishD

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by OldeEnglishD on Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:04 am

    Good luck at the tournament. Please let us know how you do! As one Judoka and BJJ player to another, Oss!


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by genetic judoka on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:52 am

    took second place in the blue belt heavyweight division. I looked like crap, but I chalk that up to being rusty as hell from not competing since before my surgery (making this my first tournament since august). my attempts at throwing were embarrassing, and I almost don't wanna post the video, but I said I would.

    in the first match I tried to ignore my judo instincts to freak the f out and try to explode outta side control, based on the idea that he'd have to try to go for a submission, and that would be my opportunity, so I tried to save my energy. that match flew by so fast! when they threw the belt at us I thought we still had like 3 minutes. the second match I have no idea what happened with the throw, but I assume it was much like the first, in that I hesitated because my knees hurt (not an excuse, but an attempt at an explanation) and that cost me the points. the first one was a legit sumi gaeshi attempt though. I'm embarrassed but I may get another chance on the 30th.


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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by Hanon on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:31 am

    genetic judoka wrote:took second place in the blue belt heavyweight division. I looked like crap, but I chalk that up to being rusty as hell from not competing since before my surgery (making this my first tournament since august). my attempts at throwing were embarrassing, and I almost don't wanna post the video, but I said I would.

    in the first match I tried to ignore my judo instincts to freak the f out and try to explode outta side control, based on the idea that he'd have to try to go for a submission, and that would be my opportunity, so I tried to save my energy. that match flew by so fast! when they threw the belt at us I thought we still had like 3 minutes. the second match I have no idea what happened with the throw, but I assume it was much like the first, in that I hesitated because my knees hurt (not an excuse, but an attempt at an explanation) and that cost me the points. the first one was a legit sumi gaeshi attempt though. I'm embarrassed but I may get another chance on the 30th.

    Why would you be embarrassed for entering a bash and having a go? Congratulations for standing ON the mat and facing your partners. Takes bottle, no need to apologise for that.

    Please don't go on a downer and start to analyse the hell out of your performance. I didn't look at the clip so can't comment. I think you should give yourself a pat on the back for partaking. You are winner as soon as you step on the mat.

    I am proud of you.

    Look after your knees mate you will need them for some time to come!

    Mike


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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by Dutch Budo on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:09 am

    No shame. You could have won both matches by triangle submission btw. There were several moments where your opponent had one arm under one arm over you legs, you just had to close the triangle.

    Anyway, good job on to the next.


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by genetic judoka on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:47 am

    you're right about the triangles. my knees are crap and triangles make them get worse so I avoid them, but I did try to threaten with them to try to get my opponent to give me an armbar. didn't work, but that was the plan.

    really I didn't prepare as well as I should have. I didn't warm up my body properly, and didn't put in the effort I should have for the mental aspect before the first match, and it really showed.

    I'll write this off as first tournament since the knee surgery and being rusty, but that's just a convenient excuse. truth is I lost fair and square, and failed to perform up to my normal standard, and need to just accept that and move on.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:55 am

    Mate that's not a bad effort for a first comp, as said above the triangle set up were pretty good for a dude in yiur weight group

    In standing you looked like you were playing with a knee injury in the standing component. Your stance looked very judo!

    I have a mate who works the ken ken uchi mata very well in bjj, by hooking the knee and using the hop to turn them. It's a lot harder to get a single counter as you are turning them of balance to the opposite side, it favors tall guys well.

    Cheers

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    Dutch Budo

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by Dutch Budo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:03 am

    genetic judoka wrote:you're right about the triangles. my knees are crap and triangles make them get worse so I avoid them, but I did try to threaten with them to try to get my opponent to give me an armbar. didn't work, but that was the plan.

    really I didn't prepare as well as I should have. I didn't warm up my body properly, and didn't put in the effort I should have for the mental aspect before the first match, and it really showed.

    I'll write this off as first tournament since the knee surgery and being rusty, but that's just a convenient excuse. truth is I lost fair and square, and failed to perform up to my normal standard, and need to just accept that and move on.

    If you at least close it you will get an advantage. Then you can transition to omo plata or armbar right away to finish. An ude garami from there is also a great option. Try and play around with it. In the first few years of my competition in Grappling and BJJ I won 90 percent of my fights with a triangle or an armbar from that position.


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    judoratt

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by judoratt on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:24 am

    Nice job getting out there, congratulations on the silver.
    BTW Don't quit your day job. Smile
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    micahpharris

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by micahpharris on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:50 am

    So do you train BJJ as well as judo or do you compete in BJJ tournaments using only your judo ne waza? Good show BTW. Bad knees are a pain. Thanks for sharing.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by genetic judoka on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:25 am

    thanks dutch, I'm certain my coach will want me to investigate this further tonight, but if he doesn't I will play with it a bit anyway.

    and thanks Bert. at some point did somebody tell you I was good at my day job or something? at least when I lose a match I can make excuses! can't do that in my day job.

    and micahpharris, read the rest of the thread, it's all about how I've been training in BJJ for the past 2 months. just jumping into a BJJ tournament with no experience is not a wise idea.


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    micahpharris

    Posts : 18
    Join date : 2013-02-13
    Location : Northern Virginia

    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by micahpharris on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:28 am

    Thanks. I apologize for speed reading the thread. Cheers!
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    nomoremondays

    Posts : 122
    Join date : 2013-01-03
    Location : Looking for Stars (sort of)

    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

    Post by nomoremondays on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:45 am

    nice of you to stop the arm lock. It seemed nobody including the ref had seen it. Good on you.

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    Re: My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

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