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    The first WJF European open championships

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    budoitaly

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    The first WJF European open championships

    Post by budoitaly on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:44 am

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:53 am

    Thanks for posting, but a bit late though. It turns out the last day of this event is this Sunday, so hardly possible for any of us to still travel to Italy to attend the events ! It probably would have been more useful if someone could have posted this, let's say, three weeks ago. I also notice that the deadline for enrollment was October 15 ...


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    Emanuele2

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:50 pm

    Is it similar to freestyle judo?
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    Jonesy

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:34 pm

    Emanuele2 wrote:Is it similar to freestyle judo?
    Absolutely not.

    Emanuele2

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:58 pm

    Jonesy wrote:
    Emanuele2 wrote:Is it similar to freestyle judo?
    Absolutely not.
    And in what does it change?
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    Jonesy

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:08 pm



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    medo

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by medo on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:18 pm

    Looks like all the small kodokan specific organisations are uniting under wjf. Having met many many high ranking teachers in their clubs, Sam Samson I rate as one of the best who can walk the talk.
    Has sobel gone over to Judo for all?
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    Carlo

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Carlo on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:23 am

    medo wrote:
    Looks like all the small kodokan specific organisations are uniting under wjf.  Having met many many high ranking teachers in their clubs, Sam Samson I rate as one of the best who can walk the talk.
    Has sobel gone over to Judo for all?
    Hi Medo,

    I believe Sampson founded Judo For All when he left the BJC.

    medo

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by medo on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:49 am

    Carlo wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Looks like all the small kodokan specific organisations are uniting under wjf.  Having met many many high ranking teachers in their clubs, Sam Samson I rate as one of the best who can walk the talk.
    Has sobel gone over to Judo for all?
    Hi Medo,

    I believe Sampson founded Judo For All when he left the BJC.
    Hi Carlo,

    I have been on mat with Sam and his teacher Alan Fromm many times.
    Also aware of the reasons he left the BJC.
    The Sobel has been going many years under BJC/Seishin Budo. Just wondered if the whole club had dropped out of the BJC.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:10 am

    I believe the European judo seniors are the Vismara brothers (Alfredo and Beppe) from Italy; http://www.amicideljudo.com


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    Carlo

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Carlo on Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:00 pm

    medo wrote:
    Carlo wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Looks like all the small kodokan specific organisations are uniting under wjf.  Having met many many high ranking teachers in their clubs, Sam Samson I rate as one of the best who can walk the talk.
    Has sobel gone over to Judo for all?
    Hi Medo,

    I believe Sampson founded Judo For All when he left the BJC.
    Hi Carlo,

    I have been on mat with Sam and his teacher Alan Fromm many times.
    Also aware of the reasons he left the BJC.
    The Sobel has been going many years under BJC/Seishin Budo. Just wondered if the whole club had dropped out of the BJC.
    Yes, unfortunately, Sobel has left the BJC.

    jkw

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by jkw on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:58 am

    Some interesting additional rules - eg. banning seoi-nage from the knees.

    Section 28: Additional Rules
    • The dropping on both knees at the same time prior to the execution of a throw will not be permitted and invalid
    • When a throw is executed when both knees are off the mat but then during the throwing action the knees follow to land on the mat, the throw will be valid.
    • The dropping on one knee in the execution of any throwing technique will be permitted and valid.
    • No leg or ankle grabs without prior attack with a valid technique.
    • No holding round the neck or restricting your opponent from functioning.
    • The breaking of the grip by hand or leg will not be permitted.
    • No leg locking permitted
    • Throwing sacrifice techniques will be permitted.
    • Morote-Gari is permitted as long as it’s executed from a kumi kata position, normal sleeve hold.
    • Kani Basami is not permitted.
    • Preventing each other from taking hold will result in Shido.
    • Forcing your opponent to bend forward must be followed with an immediate attack otherwise Shido will be called.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:50 am

    jkw wrote:
    Some interesting additional rules - eg. banning seoi-nage from the knees.

    Section 28: Additional Rules
    • The dropping on both knees at the same time prior to the execution of a throw will not be permitted and invalid
    • When a throw is executed when both knees are off the mat but then during the throwing action the knees follow to land on the mat, the throw will be valid.
    • The dropping on one knee in the execution of any throwing technique will be permitted and valid.
    • No leg or ankle grabs without prior attack with a valid technique.
    • No holding round the neck or restricting your opponent from functioning.
    • The breaking of the grip by hand or leg will not be permitted.
    • No leg locking permitted
    • Throwing sacrifice techniques will be permitted.
    • Morote-Gari is permitted as long as it’s executed from a kumi kata position, normal sleeve hold.
    • Kani Basami is not permitted.
    • Preventing each other from taking hold will result in Shido.
    • Forcing your opponent to bend forward must be followed with an immediate attack otherwise Shido will be called.
    Sounds artificial

    jkw

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by jkw on Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:02 am

    Ricebale wrote:
    Sounds artificial
    In what sense?
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    Ricebale

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:01 pm

    jkw wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:
    Sounds artificial
    In what sense?
    The approach to exclude rather than include things to make it "Judo"

    IMO inclusion is a better approach:

    For a throw to count for score it must have all the qualities of a Judo throw (like the kendo rule)
    If both knees are on the tatami during execution then the judoka will count as being in newaza

    Cheers
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:08 pm

    What I do not understand is why an organization that claims to pursue traditional Kôdôkan puts so many recent IJF rules in its refereeing rules that contradict Kôdôkan rules. Why do they not simply follow Kôdôkan rules.

    Why excluding kani-basami, why only allowing morote-gari after first taking standard kumi-kata, why not allowing leg or ankle grabs unless first attacking with something else ? These are all post-2010 IJF restrictions and have nothing to do with traditional judo. Why did they not simply take the 1976 or 1978 IJF rules which probably allowed for the best judo. Why do they also follow IJF dynamic border rules instead of traditional tatami lay-out ? I honestly do not understand this in relation to their objectives.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Ricebale on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:04 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:What I do not understand is why an organization that claims to pursue traditional Kôdôkan puts so many recent IJF rules in its refereeing rules that contradict Kôdôkan rules. Why do they not simply follow Kôdôkan rules.

    Why excluding kani-basami, why only allowing morote-gari after first taking standard kumi-kata, why not allowing leg or ankle grabs unless first attacking with something else ?  These are all post-2010 IJF restrictions and have nothing to do with traditional judo. Why did they not simply take the 1976 or 1978 IJF rules which probably allowed for the best judo. Why do they also follow IJF dynamic border rules instead of traditional tatami lay-out ? I honestly do not understand this in relation to their objectives.
    This was part of my point with my description of "artificial", the Judo is quite a large field from my small exposure to it.

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    1. Each contestant shall wear coat and belt.

    2. A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when his two shoulders and hips shall have touched the floor, provided that said contestant shall have reached this position on the floor through having been thrown down.

    3. A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when in such position on the floor, if said combatant cannot free himself from his opponent's arms within two seconds' time.

    4. A contestant shall be deemed to have been defeated when from any cause or causes he may become unconscious. But it is not permitted to use serious tricks when the wrestling bout is between friends. Such tricks as kicking and the breaking of arms, legs, and neck are barred.

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    7. When a defeated combatant pats or hits the floor, or anywhere, in token of submission, the victor must at once let go his hold.

    8. It is understood and agreed that the Jiu-Jitsu man, whether he fights a boxer or contests with a wrestler, shall be allowed to use in his defense any of the tricks that belong to the art of Jiu-Jitsu.

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    Shogun

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Shogun on Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:19 am

    For an organization that prided itself on being "different" than the IJF, they sure did adopt quite a few IJF style rules. These organizations come and go. It usually gets a big push by people who could not adapt to the new IJF rules, and not only struggle in local events this way, but nationally as well. And then after they have had their fun of beating some guys who werent cut out for IJF judo, they quit themselves. How many people showed up to the WJF US Nationals, like 12? The list of rules on page 1 are quite funny.

    Hanon

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Hanon on Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:29 pm

    "• Morote-Gari is permitted as long as it’s executed from a kumi kata position, normal sleeve hold".



    ??? Morote gari..................normal sleeve hold?


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    Udon

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Udon on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:09 am

    I guess they mean you must have a normal grip,release it and the attack with morotegari as opposed to attacking without first gripping. Just a guess.

    Shogun

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Shogun on Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:50 am

    This is correct. Under their rules, before you can go for any leg attack you must first start with a grip. So no coming out and shooting singles or doubles like you could/would in wrestling.
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    Davaro

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Davaro on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:39 pm

    Interesting that while aspiring to "traditional Kodokan" Judo, there do not appear to be any Japanese affiliates to this org.?

    Why is that?

    Edit - I also notice not a single "African" member org either. Maybe I should start one. But who would we compete against? Shocked 


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: The first WJF European open championships

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:10 am

    Davaro wrote:Interesting that while aspiring to "traditional Kodokan" Judo, there do not appear to be any Japanese affiliates to this org.?

    Why is that?
    When one talks federations or different federations in jûdô, no matter what one claims, there are always two things involved:

    1. Dan-rank
    2. Money

    The Japanese situation is complex and different from those of other countries with dan-ranks really being a Kôdôkan issue and competitions depending on whether they are domestic or international, and the type of competition, either being an All Japan Judo Federation but sometimes still a Kôdôkan issue. There are many other federations such as police, school, master's, but they are typically affiliated with the above. In any case, NBK, has more extensively detailed the situation in Japan in previous posts, so if you can find those back, those would be a good reference.


    Davaro wrote:Edit - I also notice not a single "African" member org either. Maybe I should start one. But who would we compete against? Shocked
    What do you think yourself the reason is ?  Does anyone in jûdô take Africa serious ?  How many people from Africa hold Kôdôkan ranks ?  How many people from Africa are considered experts by non-Africans ?  Sure, you will find a couple of positions within the IJF assigned to Africans, but not many and those are mainly to pretend that continental federations are treated equally so that they stay members, but for the rest ...  Ever heard of an judo clinic or seminar in Japan, Europe, America, Oceania, Asia, being taught by an African ?  They'll probably be thought of if one can get money from them (which given their economic situation is usually a contradiction), but for the rest, common prejudice applies, unfortunately. Luckily, lately some African jûdôka have started to make it and obtain medals in the IJF scene. That is excellent. Of course, there is Teddy Riner, who may 'look' African, but in terms of citizenship he is French, and besides, he was born in Guadaloupe which geographically is in the Caribbean and not in Africa, and besides, the Arawak and Carib people who settled there, came from South America and Venezuela; so one would have to bring in the entire African diaspora issue detail that situation, which really is no longer relevant to your quesiton.


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