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    Judo shiai rule changes and self defense

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    Rightintheface

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2013-11-12
    Age : 36

    Judo shiai rule changes and self defense

    Post by Rightintheface on Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:41 am

    As you guys are aware, I've been away from judo for some time. Judo competition doesn't work for me, and although I don't apologize for that, I do wish I liked it more because I love judo in general.
    A friend of mine recently did a judo competition on a whim after several years away. He was not aware of some of the new rules. He received hansakumake for grabbing the guy's leg to defend and counter a tomoenage attempt. He was obviously upset, not meaning to break a rule, but it got me wondering.
    Now, I read the articles about the rule changes with comments from Jimmy Pedro, etc, but I still just wonder.
    Do judoka agree with these rule changes? Do you think that they detract from or enhance Kano's vision of what shiai was supposed to be?
    Just wanting to solicit opinions. I know my own, but I'm not a judoka really, so it hardly matters. But I am certainly interested.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Judo shiai rule changes and self defense

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:56 am

    Rightintheface wrote:As you guys are aware, I've been away from judo for some time. Judo competition doesn't work for me, and although I don't apologize for that, I do wish I liked it more because I love judo in general.
    A friend of mine recently did a judo competition on a whim after several years away. He was not aware of some of the new rules. He received hansakumake for grabbing the guy's leg to defend and counter a tomoenage attempt. He was obviously upset, not meaning to break a rule, but it got me wondering.
    Now, I read the articles about the rule changes with comments from Jimmy Pedro, etc, but I still just wonder.
    Do judoka agree with these rule changes? Do you think that they detract from or enhance Kano's vision of what shiai was supposed to be?
    Just wanting to solicit opinions. I know my own, but I'm not a judoka really, so it hardly matters. But I am certainly interested.
    Wow, a blast from the past ! How are YOU doing, my friend ?!

    Missed you here. How are the kids ?

    We've written a ton about this, probably in the discussion section. Might wanna have a look there. We have not words for it. Judo is being totally destroyed.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Rightintheface

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2013-11-12
    Age : 36

    Re: Judo shiai rule changes and self defense

    Post by Rightintheface on Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:27 am

    I'm sorry you feel that way. I hoped at least judoka were being well served by the rule changes.
    I really found myself wondering about shiai and self defense after what my friend told me. I understand that there's sport and non-sport judo, but shouldn't it all flow together better than this?
    I've recently gotten back into bjj competition and have looked into cross-training in judo because bjj guys never see those nice judo throws coming. Just as I have a problem with guys who pull guard and other sport bjj nonsense, these rule changes in judo just really don't make sense to me. Although I'm an old man now and don't plan on ever having to deal with self defense again, I'd still like to see people remembering that tournaments are there to perfect your art, that they are not an end in and of themselves.

    still learning

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    Location : South Wales UK

    Re: Judo shiai rule changes and self defense

    Post by still learning on Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:28 am

    I hated the new rules, but having tried them for a while they do encourage more attacking judo, which is more attractive to the spectator. I had the pleasure of a coaching session with Neil Adams recently and the new rules where discussed. Talking with him they make a lot of sense, for example te-guruma was banned (even as a counter) as it was considered that professional athletes would soon find ways the around the rules, hence the blanket ban on all attacks below the belt. Interestingly I asked him about a counter to tomenage and he simply displayed a one handed cart wheel.

    A friend who was refereeing at the welsh open this weekend advised that the new rules did encourage quicker fights and could only recall one fight going to golden score.

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Judo shiai rule changes and self defense

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:43 am

    still learning wrote:I hated the new rules, but having tried them for a while they do encourage more attacking judo, which is more attractive to the spectator. I had the pleasure of a coaching session with Neil Adams recently and the new rules where discussed. Talking with him they make a lot of sense, for example te-guruma was banned (even as a counter) as it was considered that professional athletes would soon find ways the around the rules, hence the blanket ban on all attacks below the belt. Interestingly I asked him about a counter to tomenage and he simply displayed a one handed cart wheel.

    A friend who was refereeing at the welsh open this weekend advised that the new rules did encourage quicker fights and could only recall one fight going to golden score.

    OK, but one has to see the logic here as this "encourage quicker flights" is somewhat misleading.

    The IJF had already in past few years destroyed judo, so in that respect it may well be that the very latest rules improve attacking with the IJF changes by the Barcos Refereeing Committee implemented in the preceding years. But should that really be the reference point ? If one wants decent judo all one has to do is not only abolish the latest rules but also the other Barcos-implemented rules it tried to correct, or to put it simple, return to the post 1976-IJF rules.

    Also, a judo fight does not need to be quick. It may be quick or not. It is the players who should set the pace, depending on their own strategy. If anything at all, then it is that referees should stay out of a fight as much as possible and let it take its natural course.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Rightintheface

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2013-11-12
    Age : 36

    Re: Judo shiai rule changes and self defense

    Post by Rightintheface on Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:11 pm

    I guess maybe I'm not the target audience all the time, but last year I used my brand new DVR to catch as much wrestling and judo as I could. Yes, a great ippon is a beautiful thing to see, but honestly, I enjoyed any fight in which both players were going for the win. Not playing to the rules, but trying to definitively win. How many of those were there?
    To an outside guy, (me), these rule changes are taking techniques out for what seem like extremely arbitrary reasons, they are not addressing the least sportsmanlike aspects of judo competition (such as stalling and turtling) and they seem biased. In the article I read, it as much said that they were trying to get judo to be more Japanese. That's like America trying to change the rules of baseball so that the US always wins. To me, it's shady. And even if it makes good sense at an international level, most of the judo being done is at the local/regional level, and this REALLY doesn't make sense at that level to me.
    I live in Iowa, and I can state that judo is hurting here from the loss of wrestlers coming in to cross train. Maybe that doesn't matter in the large scale, but there was a judo tourney in town here on Sat and I wasn't even tempted to jump in. I want to want to do judo.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Judo shiai rule changes and self defense

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:13 pm

    Rightintheface wrote:I guess maybe I'm not the target audience all the time, but last year I used my brand new DVR to catch as much wrestling and judo as I could. Yes, a great ippon is a beautiful thing to see, but honestly, I enjoyed any fight in which both players were going for the win. Not playing to the rules, but trying to definitively win. How many of those were there?
    To an outside guy, (me), these rule changes are taking techniques out for what seem like extremely arbitrary reasons, they are not addressing the least sportsmanlike aspects of judo competition (such as stalling and turtling) and they seem biased. In the article I read, it as much said that they were trying to get judo to be more Japanese. That's like America trying to change the rules of baseball so that the US always wins. To me, it's shady. And even if it makes good sense at an international level, most of the judo being done is at the local/regional level, and this REALLY doesn't make sense at that level to me.
    I live in Iowa, and I can state that judo is hurting here from the loss of wrestlers coming in to cross train. Maybe that doesn't matter in the large scale, but there was a judo tourney in town here on Sat and I wasn't even tempted to jump in. I want to want to do judo.
    You can rest assured that the rules changes have nothing to do with trying to make judo more Japanese again. I believe that some might have fabricated this as an explanation. The Japanese dislike all these rule changes as much as I do. In fact, the IJF's refereeing rules have now deviated so much from the Kôdôkan refereeing rules (the latter which ARE Japanese) that it is as if you have two entirely different disciplines. Kôsen jûdô also is very Japanese and very remote from IJF rules.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

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