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    orthodox male jews not training with females

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    finarashi

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by finarashi on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:43 pm

    South park does not secretly promote burgers Mad 


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    contrarian

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by contrarian on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:09 pm

    finarashi wrote:South park does not secretly promote burgers Mad 
    just make sure you don't put cheese on those burgers.
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    BillC

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by BillC on Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:55 pm

    Next thing you know ...



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    trenttheuncatchable

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by trenttheuncatchable on Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:27 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Moreover, note that some particularly well-known Japanese jûdô go further than that and have in fact an outspoken religious affiliation although the Westerner practising there might not be aware of this. Such an example is Tenri University, which is officially described as an "independent part of the secular mission of Tenrikyô" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenrikyo)
    Your quote does say "secular mission". I belong to a club that practices in the basement of a Tenri church, one of the instructors is the pastor (and a nidan), and there is no mention of Tenrikyo (or any other religion) whatsoever.

    Shogun

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Shogun on Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:26 am

    I wonder how this guy would feel if a few kids would not work with his sons and when asked why not, he was told, "Their not allowed to train with jews." Im certain he would not like that response, yet the girls have to endure this type of exclusion daily. Seems unfair.
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:36 am

    i've thought about this before as well, about the time when i made my very popular thread about bowing to picture of Kano. i am of korean descent and if there was a shinto shrine at the shomen, it would not be acceptable for me. my people were forced to bow to the shinto and those who refused paid the price with their lives.  

    Seriously, We must all start living in the present and not the past, that War ended a long time ago, and that Country, although a beligerent back then, is now a Major trading power, and has very close relations with all of its former enemies, it is time to forget
    the events of 70-80 years ago and concentrate on the future.






    single edit to correct a tpyo Very Happy 
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:21 am

    trenttheuncatchable wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Moreover, note that some particularly well-known Japanese jûdô go further than that and have in fact an outspoken religious affiliation although the Westerner practising there might not be aware of this. Such an example is Tenri University, which is officially described as an "independent part of the secular mission of Tenrikyô" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenrikyo)
    Your quote does say "secular mission". I belong to a club that practices in the basement of a Tenri church, one of the instructors is the pastor (and a nidan), and there is no mention of Tenrikyo (or any other religion) whatsoever.
    Correct, that is how the quote reads.

    I would, however, not call Tenri University in Japan as depleted of any religious connotation, although it may depend on individual sensitivity to what extent one perceives this. Also, the fact that I mention this does not imply any judgment in terms of 'good' or 'bad'. I also wonder IF those of strongly exclusive religions with very strong opinions would accept being taught by someone who knowingly is a priest of another religion even if that priest is very oecumenical or does not make explicit references to his religion. Would the average Muslim dad be very enthusiastic bringing his kid to the dôjô knowing that the sensei is a Jewish rabbi, who ... "respectfully" does not have his students bow to the picture of Kanô or to anyone else ? So, there probably is more to it than what one actually does. A couple of years ago we had a refugee from Afghanistan live with us for a couple of months during the week because his home was in a different city too far to travel to his job every day of the week. He was originally Muslim, but he had converted to Catholicism. Well, he got death threats and they tried to kill him (not with guns and stuff, but enough to make him very scared). This is an interesting phenomenon because we now see that the issues dear to many people of Muslim faith are not limited to Muslims, but are also not tolerated even if a person spontaneously submits to them and has chosen a new religion. So, in that case it is no longer an individual being offended by something, but others attempting to bestow a feeling of offense to a third person who is not offended. Clearly someone's religion can't be intended to aggressively encompass those who do not belong to that religion. We see that often in other religions too. A well know example is people who like to refer to certain verses in the Bible. They have a tendency to do so without first even checking if those they are conversing to even are Christians. If not, it fairly nonsensical to quote from a text to appeal to authority when that text for them does not have such authority. In other words, these phenomena are quite complex and have their tentacles reaching many aspects of life.

    I have been taught by many who had a functional title related to religion. Many of them never spoke about it in class, but does that imply their courses are depleted of religion or identical to someone without religious affiliation or functional title ? In my experience, not, although I recognized that other people's experiences may be different. What would be an example of how one perceives in academia differences in people who hold a religious title. Well, in several of my experiences when as a student or colleague you'd like to know something about their background or research and look at their profile you will often see that their PhD disssertation was about topic related to religion or church. In consequence a higher proportion of their publication also involve something related o religion, and in consequence, who seeks their expertise as an adviser for a thesis or dissertation ? Those student who want to do research or write about a topic they feel is within his area of expertise. in my experience when you look back at their courses I do see subtle differences, even as simple that certain jokes someone without religious function might make, they won't, including other things, since religion is not simply a closed off thing that goes on in their mind, but a life philosophy and code that lets itself being felt even if they do not consciously require any explicit religious acts from those who collaborate with them or are advised by them. Of course, I believe your experience in the specific dôjô you mention. I don't know though if the perceptions of your colleagues are identical to yours. It's something to think about.


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    contrarian

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by contrarian on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:13 am

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:i've thought about this before as well, about the time when i made my very popular thread about bowing to picture of Kano. i am of korean descent and if there was a shinto shrine at the shomen, it would not be acceptable for me. my people were forced to bow to the shinto and those who refused paid the price with their lives.  

    Seriously, We must all start living in the present and not the past, that War ended a long time ago, and that Country, although a beligerent back then, is now a Major trading power, and has very close relations with all of its former enemies, it is time to forget
    the events of 70-80 years ago and concentrate on the future.


    single edit to correct a tpyo   Very Happy 
    possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

    i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:13 am

    contrarian wrote: 
    possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

    i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.
    According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.


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    contrarian

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by contrarian on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:10 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    contrarian wrote: 
    possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

    i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.
    According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.
    i don't think you understand my rationale at all. i already said that i don't hold a grudge. in a hypothetical, i said i would have a serious problem with bowing to a shinto shrine, out of respect for those who perished. i am no nationalist, and utterly hate tribalism, but there's nothing wrong with remembering the past and honouring the dead.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:33 pm

    contrarian wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    contrarian wrote: 
    possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

    i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.
    According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.
    i don't think you understand my rationale at all. i already said that i don't hold a grudge. in a hypothetical, i said i would have a serious problem with bowing to a shinto shrine, out of respect for those who perished. i am no nationalist, and utterly hate tribalism, but there's nothing wrong with remembering the past and honouring the dead.  
    It's always possible that I misunderstood you, I am not perfect by any means, but in addition to the part you quote in your response, you also wrote "but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs". (...) That section suggest that even if you do not hold a grudge against the Japanese, the acts which you quote are deemed sufficient by you to decide a certain attitude. In other words, even an actual attitude or reaction seems founded on something that happened a long time ago, and ... for some reason (I understand, partly because this is a judo forum and therefore Japanese are somewhat more relevant than Inuit of crusaders) you do not seem like you feel you need to make conscious choices with regard to other people including those of undoubtedly your or my blood and heritage since history was interlarded with atrocities and retaliation, and no doubt people belonging to the same creed, religion, ethnicity and citizenship as yourself likely committed atrocities too at some time in history. This is somewhat surprising unless you have another rationale as to why such choice should not be consistent but arbitrary.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:06 pm

    By the way, for those interested, there exists a paper on judo and relgion:

    http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_goodger_1201.htm


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    NBK

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by NBK on Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:36 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    contrarian wrote: 
    possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

    i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.
    According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.
    The numbers of forced Korean laborers was never clear, but probably didn't reach the numbers cited as numbers killed. And everyone in the empire was pressed into service, even the Japanese, who under the mobilization laws were pushed very hard, lost the and often worked under horrible conditions, too.

    It will be interesting to see what these docs, recently rediscovered in the Republic of Korea Tokyo Embassy, reveal: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/11/17/national/documents-on-korean-forced-laborers-turn-up-in-old-embassy/ as they were a lot closer to the actual time.

    The numbers of normal Japanese settlers, businessmen, and families who were tortured and killed in the postwar rush to settle scores by both Soviet soldiers and locals (Korean, Manchurian, Chinese) was in fact large. Of course, all this paled in comparison to the predations of the North Koreans on their South Korean relatives during the initial invasion and temporary occupation of the South.

    CK, do you have any citations for your point 'Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.'?

    NBK
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    BillC

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by BillC on Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:03 pm

    NBK wrote:

    The numbers of normal Japanese settlers, businessmen, and families who were tortured and killed in the postwar rush to settle scores by both Soviet soldiers and locals (Korean, Manchurian, Chinese) was in fact large.  Of course, all this paled in comparison to the predations of the North Koreans on their South Korean relatives during the initial invasion and temporary occupation of the South.   

    NBK
    Note: Escape from Manchuria

    Mr. NBK,

    While I know you have read this book, and the subject is close to those close to you, it might make an interesting read for folks with interest but who may have only read mid-20th century from the usual point of view ... or who may have only seen the movie.  That the author is a judoka of note adds relevance.  

    A separate comment ... I have become increasingly uncomfortable in participating in the rites and rituals of religion. Not because of any strong objection to those religions, I am ... well, for example when I went to temple with my kids I was just obviously so NOT Jewish ... I think it is a bit silly bordering on insulting to true believers for me to just play act.

    Bowing to shomen is done simply because it is what judoka do, a moment to remind us to appreciate where we are and how we got there. I appreciate and honor the "itadakimasu" attitude, it is because it matches naturally to my own upbringing, not because I am trying to don the external trappings of a culture to which I will never, ever belong.

    By the way you may have noticed that front and center in our dojo are the Stars and Stripes, floor to ceiling ... Kano-shihan's photo and that of your founder to one side.

    Thanks.

    Bill


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    Wisconsinite

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Wisconsinite on Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:36 pm

    We have had an episode with a parent waiting until week 8 in a 10 week class to inform us that his kids will not bow, they do not recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem because they are Muslim. He ran onto the mat wearing his shoes, disrupted the class to have his tirade, and totally caught my brother off guard. This parent watched all the classes, heard my brother explain why we bow in our dojo, and never brought up religion or beliefs until then. He threatened to sue the youth organization because we wouldn't change the rules for his kids. There was a thread on the old forum where we discussed this incident. We presented documentation on the lawsuit that USA Judo fought on the subject of bowing to the youth organization. They backed us up.

    We trained in our younger days with a young man who was born and raised Muslim and he had no problem with bowing. It was mentioned by another parent who works in law enforcement that the man was most likely a recent convert and they can be extreme. I have met other Muslim families who have their children in a nearby dojo and they bow.

    We just received another call from a parent requesting that his sons only train with other boys. I politely told him that all children train together regardless of gender, and that there was an excellent wrestling program that might be a better fit for his boys.

    The instructors in our club have come to the realization that if we start allowing parents to dictate which children can train with others, which ones will bow and which ones will not, it will soon be impossible to teach because we will spend more time checking lists to ensure that no child broke a parent's rule. Judo is something that is elective. It is not a requirement. I am aware that there are groups that can accommodate the single gender training, no bowing, restricted techniques that do not offend their beliefs, but we are not set up to accommodate them. There are other things we are not equipped to deal with. If we know of a nearby dojo that can help them, we will direct them to it.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:54 pm

    Wisconsinite wrote:We have had an episode with a parent waiting until week 8 in a 10 week class to inform us that his kids will not bow, they do not recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem because they are Muslim. He ran onto the mat wearing his shoes, disrupted the class to have his tirade, and totally caught my brother off guard. This parent watched all the classes, heard my brother explain why we bow in our dojo, and never brought up religion or beliefs until then. He threatened to sue the youth organization because we wouldn't change the rules for his kids. There was a thread on the old forum where we discussed this incident. We presented documentation on the lawsuit that USA Judo fought on the subject of bowing to the youth organization. They backed us up.  

    We trained in our younger days with a young man who was born and raised Muslim and he had no problem with bowing. It was mentioned by another parent who works in law enforcement that the man was most likely a recent convert and they can be extreme. I have met other Muslim families who have their children in a nearby dojo and they bow.

    We just received another call from a parent requesting that his sons only train with other boys. I politely told him that all children train together regardless of gender, and that there was an excellent wrestling program that might be a better fit for his boys.

    The instructors in our club have come to the realization that if we start allowing parents to dictate which children can train with others, which ones will bow and which ones will not, it will soon be impossible to teach because we will spend more time checking lists to ensure that no child broke a parent's rule. Judo is something that is elective. It is not a requirement. I am aware that there are groups that can accommodate the single gender training, no bowing, restricted techniques that do not offend their beliefs, but we are not set up to accommodate them. There are other things we are not equipped to deal with. If we know of a nearby dojo that can help them, we will direct them to it.  

    After reading your post I was trying to imagine a judo contest instead of IJF rules being run by Shariah Law ...

    Such experiment might offer good evidence in support of finally getting rid of that stupid Golden Score.


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    contrarian

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by contrarian on Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:04 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    contrarian wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    contrarian wrote: 
    possibly up to 6 million people died, and millions more were systematically raped, tortured, and starved, while the culture and language were not only denied, but nearly erased, over a slow 35-year period.

    i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese. but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs.
    According to that rationale, it will be hard to do anything or respect anyone in life of any country, religion, ethnicity, creed, since most people and likely even our own ancestors and people of our own ethnicity and blood probably murdered and committed some serious atrocities in the past. The crusaders in Europe come to mind, the Nazi's in Germany, the fascists in Italy, or before, the Romans, and numerous others, in the US the atrocities against Native Americans, slaves, etc. There is something like "State Shintôism" and "Radical Shintô ultranationalism" in Japan and like any form of extremist views they have some worrisome ideas. However, none of them is associated with jûdô, although that certainly does not mean that there aren't any blatant supremacists in jûdô, but those most certainly are not related to the Japanese, although they also exist in jûdô. However, Kanô strongly reacted to those wishing to abuse jûdô as part of the body culture component of growing Japanese fascism at the dawn of WW II.
    i don't think you understand my rationale at all. i already said that i don't hold a grudge. in a hypothetical, i said i would have a serious problem with bowing to a shinto shrine, out of respect for those who perished. i am no nationalist, and utterly hate tribalism, but there's nothing wrong with remembering the past and honouring the dead.  
    It's always possible that I misunderstood you, I am not perfect by any means, but in addition to the part you quote in your response, you also wrote "but if it's ok with you, it's my way of remembering and respecting those who had their heads severed in public for standing up for their beliefs". (...)  That section suggest that even if you do not hold a grudge against the Japanese, the acts which you quote are deemed sufficient by you to decide a certain attitude. In other words, even an actual attitude or reaction seems founded on something that happened a long time ago, and ... for some reason (I understand, partly because this is a judo forum and therefore Japanese are somewhat more relevant than Inuit of crusaders) you do not seem like you feel you need to make conscious choices with regard to other people including those of undoubtedly your or my blood and heritage since history was interlarded with atrocities and retaliation, and no doubt people belonging to the same creed, religion, ethnicity and citizenship as yourself likely committed atrocities too at some time in history. This is somewhat surprising unless you have another rationale as to why such choice should not be consistent but arbitrary.
    it's probably because it doesn't seem that distant to me, having grandparents who spoke fluent japanese, because they were forced to learn it. you probably won't get a satisfactory answer out of me, if you were looking for one.

    i never thought about the shinto in relation to judo, until i saw Iliadis wearing the new fighting films gi a couple of years back. when i saw that, i thought to myself, 'i could never wear that'. i thought that would be like spitting on the graves of my forebears. i've seen some other japanese martial arts clubs with a mini shinto at the shomen, and thankfully, i haven't encountered that at any judo clubs.


    Last edited by contrarian on Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:33 am; edited 4 times in total
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    Stacey

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Stacey on Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:21 pm

    Wisconsinite wrote:We have had an episode with a parent waiting until week 8 in a 10 week class to inform us that his kids will not bow, they do not recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem because they are Muslim. He ran onto the mat wearing his shoes, disrupted the class to have his tirade, and totally caught my brother off guard. This parent watched all the classes, heard my brother explain why we bow in our dojo, and never brought up religion or beliefs until then. He threatened to sue the youth organization because we wouldn't change the rules for his kids. There was a thread on the old forum where we discussed this incident. We presented documentation on the lawsuit that USA Judo fought on the subject of bowing to the youth organization. They backed us up.  

    We trained in our younger days with a young man who was born and raised Muslim and he had no problem with bowing. It was mentioned by another parent who works in law enforcement that the man was most likely a recent convert and they can be extreme. I have met other Muslim families who have their children in a nearby dojo and they bow.

    We just received another call from a parent requesting that his sons only train with other boys. I politely told him that all children train together regardless of gender, and that there was an excellent wrestling program that might be a better fit for his boys.

    The instructors in our club have come to the realization that if we start allowing parents to dictate which children can train with others, which ones will bow and which ones will not, it will soon be impossible to teach because we will spend more time checking lists to ensure that no child broke a parent's rule. Judo is something that is elective. It is not a requirement. I am aware that there are groups that can accommodate the single gender training, no bowing, restricted techniques that do not offend their beliefs, but we are not set up to accommodate them. There are other things we are not equipped to deal with. If we know of a nearby dojo that can help them, we will direct them to it.  
    best post on this subject. hope all is well for you and yours in and around Racine this evening
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    Kenan79

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Kenan79 on Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:39 pm

    There are either rules or there are no rules. Simple as that. We had a BJJ guy visiting our dojo and constantly refusing to bow to either one of us or even at the end of the practice (when we would all line up). It made me avoid him whenever possible. It just can't work and it doesn't contribute to a healthy atmosphere. You either f***ing bow and respect some ground rules or piss the f**k off. Simple as that. It offends your religion? Well, too bad for you.
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:40 am

    i don't hold a grudge against japan or japanese.

    i never thought about the shinto in relation to judo, until i saw Iliadis wearing the new fighting films gi a couple of years back. when i saw that, i thought to myself, 'i could never wear that'. i thought that would be like spitting on the graves of my forebears. [/quote]

    If you look again at the "Fighting Films" Logo, you will see that it is NOT a Torii gate,

    a symbol of that which you openly despise,

    It is in fact two of the letter "F" facing each other !!...................one facing forward and one reversed.





    single edit to correct punctuation.
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    contrarian

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by contrarian on Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:34 pm

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:
    If you look again at the "Fighting Films" Logo, you will see that it is NOT a Torii gate,

    a symbol of that which you openly despise,

    It is in fact two of the letter "F" facing each other !!...................one facing forward and one reversed.


    single edit to correct punctuation.
    pretty piss poor job at trolling.
    and go learn how to quote. it's not that difficult.
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    judoratt

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by judoratt on Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:31 am

    Steve Leadbeater wrote:i've thought about this before as well, about the time when i made my very popular thread about bowing to picture of Kano. i am of korean descent and if there was a shinto shrine at the shomen, it would not be acceptable for me. my people were forced to bow to the shinto and those who refused paid the price with their lives.  

    Seriously, We must all start living in the present and not the past, that War ended a long time ago, and that Country, although a beligerent back then, is now a Major trading power, and has very close relations with all of its former enemies, it is time to forget
    the events of 70-80 years ago and concentrate on the future.

    72 years ago today

    Happy Perl harbor day






    single edit to correct a tpyo   Very Happy 
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    Udon

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Udon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:00 pm

    "Happy Pearl Harbor Day". Are you f**king crazy!
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: orthodox male jews not training with females

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:43 pm

    I DID NOT WRITE "HAPPY PEARL HARBOUR DAY"

    That is a false edit under my name

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