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    Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

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    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:16 am

    I am in the most unfortunate position. I am now frequently requested to teach groups Kodokan goshin jutsu. It is a basic 'kata' and one a judoka my rank should be rather accomplished at.

    I want to vent off and forgive me if my venting goes OTT. WE all have our moments. I do hope that my rant doesn't offend those who enjoy this kata THAT is not in the least my intention. I am aware just how popular of late this 'kata' has become.

    I learned this kata in a very base form decades ago. I mean decades ago. I hated it. Absolutely detested it. I was raised in judo as a child with the randori no kata then kaeshi kata then kime no kata. I understand the kime no kata and love it. I understand it, can defend its position in judo, see its relevance to judo and enjoy its rich history and the vital underlying principles it teaches.

    I taught the military from a very young age both Judo then SD. The SD was not a part of the judo curriculum and certainly the two concepts where never confused. Judo is an education. SD for troops is a matter of life and death. To this end I became somewhat proficient in the arts of SD, so I am told? Point is I can understand kime no kata and its reason for inclusion in the kodokan syllabus as an integral part of our judo. I learned long ago the last thing Kime no kata is about is self defence. Its to train the mind and body in nearly every other concept except SD!
    I can write chapter and verse on the kime no kata explain WHY this kata is a vital tool that develops character and skill sets that we use every day in our lives. I trained to a high level in this kata to the stage we used live blades, and that is where Kime no kata is truly learned and understood.

    I have been again 'trying' to practice kodokan goshin jutsu. It is driving me to tears. I just hate and detest this abomination of a group of near futile and pathetic exercises (sorry). I cannot find ONE redeeming factor to learning and practicing this 'kata'. I am constantly in this internal fight with myself to practice it. As far as Goshin jutsu is concerned it is a bloody joke. If I am uke I want to remove the head or scrotum of tori in most moves.

    Tomiki-sensei, what on earth where you thinking? Aikido and judo. 8th dan in both and I have no doubt an expert in both. To this end what the hell am I missing? I just cannot accept this is a modern version of kime no kata. 1956 or not what are we doing here? Most of the waza are flawed?

    I am miserable because I have to go and practice this 'kata'. I cannot articulate just how much I detest this 'kata'. Now 'some' of this may be in my judo DNA? You see non of my sensei would have this taught nor practiced on their tatami and to learn it I had to move outside my normal circle of font of judo knowledge.

    You see I have never been able to teach something I don't believe in, something I cannot defend both physically, academically and psychologically. I do teach judo waza I dislike BUT that is not my point. Even though I dislike kata guruma I can defend the teaching of the waza and its core use in randori and shiai. I also detest kibisu gaeshi but same applies I can see it has its place and can defend it academically. Kodokan goshinjutsu.... I am asked why we do this and not that and I cannot answer these valuable questions. It is not only that so many of the waza are a completely fiction, I cant find a reason why any expert would even develop such a group of techniques?

    I seriously need some help here. I need answers. I must be missing something? This 'kata' has survived since 1956 and has to have some value somewhere? WHY do I just find it so soul destroying to practice and teaching it drives me to real despair. I truly do not see the point in this 'kata'?

    Any words of wisdom and support would be much appreciated.

    I don't feel any better after my rant either................must be bad....

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
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    Udon

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Udon on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:06 am

    Hanon Sensei,
    I taught SD to law enforcement for a number of years. I have attended clinics where this kata was taught and tried to learn it. I have no skill in Kodokan goshin jutsu. That said, i too, have major reservations as to its efficacy. I particularly find the defense against someone armed with a handgun almost suicidal.
    Your "rant" is not off base.
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    heikojr

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by heikojr on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:41 am

    Sensei,

    How are you? It has been so long since we have met up here.

    You need a dose of your own medicine, that is to say, you have set many people strait in this subject, many times. What would you say to someone who said that they see absolutely no reason to learn Itsutsu-no-kata, that there is no useful movement or technique within this kata, it is only a dance that has no use in judo?

    I hope all is well!
    heikojr
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:13 am

    Hanon wrote:I am in the most unfortunate position. I am now frequently requested to teach groups Kodokan goshin jutsu. It is a basic 'kata' and one a judoka my rank should be rather accomplished at.

    I want to vent off and forgive me if my venting goes OTT. WE all have our moments. I do hope that my rant doesn't offend those who enjoy this kata THAT is not in the least my intention. I am aware just how popular of late this 'kata' has become.

    I learned this kata in a very base form decades ago. I mean decades ago. I hated it. Absolutely detested it. I was raised in judo as a child with the randori no kata then kaeshi kata then kime no kata. I understand the kime no kata and love it. I understand it, can defend its position in judo, see its relevance to judo and enjoy its rich history and the vital underlying principles it teaches.

    I taught the military from a very young age both Judo then SD. The SD was not a part of the judo curriculum and certainly the two concepts where never confused. Judo is an education. SD for troops is a matter of life and death. To this end I became somewhat proficient in the arts of SD, so I am told? Point is I can understand kime no kata and its reason for inclusion in the kodokan syllabus as an integral part of our judo. I learned long ago the last thing Kime no kata is about is self defence. Its to train the mind and body in nearly every other concept except SD!
    I can write chapter and verse on the kime no kata explain WHY this kata is a vital tool that develops character and skill sets that we use every day in our lives. I trained to a high level in this kata to the stage we used live blades, and that is where Kime no kata is truly learned and understood.

    I have been again 'trying' to practice kodokan goshin jutsu. It is driving me to tears. I just hate and detest this abomination of a group of near futile and pathetic exercises (sorry). I cannot find ONE redeeming factor to learning and practicing this 'kata'. I am constantly in this internal fight with myself to practice it. As far as Goshin jutsu is concerned it is a bloody joke. If I am uke I want to remove the head or scrotum of tori in most moves.

    Tomiki-sensei, what on earth where you thinking? Aikido and judo. 8th dan in both and I have no doubt an expert in both. To this end what the hell am I missing? I just cannot accept this is a modern version of kime no kata. 1956 or not what are we doing here? Most of the waza are flawed?

    I am miserable because I have to go and practice this 'kata'. I cannot articulate just how much I detest this 'kata'. Now 'some' of this may be in my judo DNA? You see non of my sensei would have this taught nor practiced on their tatami and to learn it I had to move outside my normal circle of font of judo knowledge.

    You see I have never been able to teach something I don't believe in, something I cannot defend both physically, academically and psychologically. I do teach judo waza I dislike BUT that is not my point. Even though I dislike kata guruma I can defend the teaching of the waza and its core use in randori and shiai. I also detest kibisu gaeshi but same applies I can see it has its place and can defend it academically. Kodokan goshinjutsu.... I am asked why we do this and not that and I cannot answer these valuable questions. It is not only that so many of the waza are a completely fiction, I cant find a reason why any expert would even develop such a group of techniques?

    I seriously need some help here. I need answers. I must be missing something? This 'kata' has survived since 1956 and has to have some value somewhere? WHY do I just find it so soul destroying to practice and teaching it drives me to real despair. I truly do not see the point in this 'kata'?

    Any words of wisdom and support would be much appreciated.

    I don't feel any better after my rant either................must be bad....

    Mike
    Hanon-sensei, stay away from that coffee for a couple of days


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    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:53 pm

    CK sensei, I don't drink anything that contains caffeine. You know that.

    Heikojr sensei, This IS my entire point. I can in all respects give academic chapter and verse as to the value of learning the other kata used in judo.
    We have seen here some other non kodokan kata and with a few exceptions I can defend the practice of some of those. I cannot do what you ask of me in relation to the kodokan goshinjutsu though.
    I need your help to illustrate what I am missing. I accept the fault is with me and maybe not with the 'kata'. I hope this is the case.
    Kime no kata is a foundation to learning the fundamental principles of attack-defence, or attack-attack, action-reaction. Tai sabaki, katame, shisei, etc and so forth. Kime no kata is about concentration. Believe me no one can say they have learned kime no kata until they have reached the point where their sensei tells them to use live blades. One has no idea just how focused one becomes. Strength of mind and character is put to the test, not to mention ones underwear and ability to still count to ten using ones fingers.
    To have ones personal space invaded is something judoka take for granted. To be man-handled is something we take for granted, to be held, grabbed, pushed and pulled, attacked etc these are bread and butter concepts to the experienced judoka. I fully understand that the kime no kata is not at all about self defence but it is about all the concepts and skills used in real SD even though developing such skills through judo takes many many dedicated years if ever.
    I cannot justify the goshinjutsu kata this way.........WHY do we need to practice it? The techniques are not effective in terms of goshinjutsu and flawed technically (that is a generalisation, sorry). This could be said of the kime no kata BUT as I have written the kime no kata is a group of techniques wrapped around a frame of principles that ensure the practitioners learn a core set of basic skills. If one practices the kime no kata why do we need the less technically efficient goshinjutsu kata? There must be answers and I need to hear them.
    It is so nice to hear from you also, please do your best to teach me what I fail to see. I hope you and yours are well.

    Udon sensei. Don't set me of on the gun tactics. SD is a massive subject. SD must ALWAYS take into account the fact that very often, in fact generally, an attacker is not a fool and knows his 'art' better, or as well, than we do ours. A person with a knife or a gun is not a person to play with.
    I have never ever taught the public SD. I do not believe 'simple' tricks learned over a few weeks can save a life. I do believe in a few weeks academic SD and for that we don't need a dojo just a class room with chairs.
    In terms of children I still see to this day classes advertised where they claim to teach SD to 5 year old etc. Absurd. SD for a child is called mom and dad or grandparents or another family adult, knowing where and with whom ones child is 24-24.
    SD for most of us is about prevention education. How to avoid the need to even learn any physical SD. To master SD in a domestic situation could take decades. Its not only the body that needs training its the mind and emotions.
    Teaching people SD for a few weeks is a dangerous counter productive activity especially with children whose parents may well think their kids are 'safe' vis, 'oh don't worry about our daughter Jane even though she is only 9 she has a black belt in TKD'. BIG mistake.

    The one of many waza that baffle me is Tsukkake. Uke attackes with a knife in his Right hand yet tori moves against ukes left hand? Talk about treating uke like a moron? I am not going to be touching an uke who jolds a knife in his Right hand with any action that still leaves Uke the chance to run me though. It has to be considered that while tori is making his defence so can uke adjust his position. See ju no kata as a classic example of this concept, also kime no kata! I don't think one catches a tiger by the tail as the teeth are at the other end? I don't know as I have never tried to catch one, that would be my first lesson and advice.

    I saw a recent you tube clip of this kata and the gun techniques I noticed something new. Uke now holds the gun in the Right hand (as always) but now with his left hand checks the 'pocket' of the trousers of tori's left pocket? How many men keep their wallets in their left pocket and how many would be attackers check the pockets themselves? The scenario is generally uke keeps well away from tori, tells tori to throw his wallet on the floor and kick it toward uke.
    The Kodokan illustrated judo book informs us that this is a modern day kata that utilises modern day attacks and defences. I suggest they look again. Gosh that sounds rather rude, no offence meant at all.

    I guess IF a judoka doesn't learn the kime no kata the goshinjutsu kata could be of some service. At present I find the kime no kata teaches those core principles and does this without the agenda that the actual waza are working SD waza and of use in todays repertoire of SD. In 2013 I cannot justify the techniques in the kodokan goshinjutsu as a modern replacement or even addition to, for the kime no kata.

    What am I missing here?

    Come on you guys there are expert practitioners of this kata here. What should I be looking for and how can I make use of this kata. I am, at present, even less able to academically defend it than ever. I need this debate. I need to learn and find the answers.

    Many thanks,

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
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    judo66

    Posts : 47
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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by judo66 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:40 am

    Critics against goshin jutsu again? really?

    I have been a law enforcement officer for more than 26 years. (retired now). I used the knowledge acquired through the practice of that kata. It works.

    If you want a piece of advice i would say: practice it again and again. When you think you have practiced it enough, erase that foolish idea and practice it again.

    Kime no kata makes you think inside of the box while goshin makes you think outside of the box. You need both, period.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:59 am

    judo66 wrote:Critics against goshin jutsu again? really?

    I have been a law enforcement officer for more than 26 years. (retired now). I used the knowledge acquired through the practice of that kata. It works.

    If you want a piece of advice i would say: practice it again and again. When you think you have practiced it enough, erase that foolish idea and practice it again.

    Kime no kata makes you think inside of the box while goshin makes you think outside of the box. You need both, period.



    How and why?

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
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    judo66

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    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by judo66 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:36 am

    Kime no kata is actually more related to judo as we are used to practice it. For exemple there is no wrist lock in KNK while you have some in goshin jutsu.

    Wrist locks are very useful to be able to handcuff someone. Of course i'm talking about police related work.

    There is no defence against handguns in KNK. In goshin you have three of those, do they work? maybe just 2 times out of 10, i really don't like the first one and i think it should be modified. A gun is a gun, if the distance is to great between you and your opponent there is no way you can do anything however with a handgun inside of a police holster if the distance is less than 21 feet someone who is in very good shape can reach the opponent before any dammage can be done (there have been studies on that).

    In goshin the handgun is already pointed and then uke reach tori's pocket to search him. Two things. 1. Uke has no intention to shoot you, he wants your wallet. 2. Is your wallet more precious than your life. Those are to be discussed when someone teach Goshin Jutsu.

    In a real situation you will always use something that is more natural for you. However you must try different techniques to know what suits you the best.

    How many techniques coming from the go kyo do we actually use in randori?





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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:23 am

    Hanon wrote:CK sensei, I don't drink anything that contains caffeine. You know that.

    Heikojr sensei, This IS my entire point. I can in all respects give academic chapter and verse as to the value of learning the other kata used in judo.
    We have seen here some other non kodokan kata and with a few exceptions I can defend the practice of some of those. I cannot do what you ask of me in relation to the kodokan goshinjutsu though.
    I need your help to illustrate what I am missing. I accept the fault is with me and maybe not with the 'kata'. I hope this is the case.
    Kime no kata is a foundation to learning the fundamental principles of attack-defence, or attack-attack, action-reaction. Tai sabaki, katame, shisei, etc and so forth. Kime no kata is about concentration. Believe me no one can say they have learned kime no kata until they have reached the point where their sensei tells them to use live blades. One has no idea just how focused one becomes. Strength of mind and character is put to the test, not to mention ones underwear and ability to still count to ten using ones fingers.
    To have ones personal space invaded is something judoka take for granted. To be man-handled is something we take for granted, to be held, grabbed, pushed and pulled, attacked etc these are bread and butter concepts to the experienced judoka. I fully understand that the kime no kata is not at all about self defence but it is about all the concepts and skills used in real SD even though developing such skills through judo takes many many dedicated years if ever.
    I cannot justify the goshinjutsu kata this way.........WHY do we need to practice it? The techniques are not effective in terms of goshinjutsu and flawed technically (that is a generalisation, sorry). This could be said of the kime no kata BUT as I have written the kime no kata is a group of techniques wrapped around a frame of principles that ensure the practitioners learn a core set of basic skills. If one practices the kime no kata why do we need the less technically efficient goshinjutsu kata? There must be answers and I need to hear them.
    It is so nice to hear from you also, please do your best to teach me what I fail to see. I hope you and yours are well.

    Udon sensei. Don't set me of on the gun tactics. SD is a massive subject. SD must ALWAYS take into account the fact that very often, in fact generally, an attacker is not a fool and knows his 'art' better, or as well, than we do ours. A person with a knife or a gun is not a person to play with.
    I have never ever taught the public SD. I do not believe 'simple' tricks learned over a few weeks can save a life. I do believe in a few weeks academic SD and for that we don't need a dojo just a class room with chairs.
    In terms of children I still see to this day classes advertised where they claim to teach SD to 5 year old etc. Absurd. SD for a child is called mom and dad or grandparents or another family adult, knowing where and with whom ones child is 24-24.
    SD for most of us is about prevention education. How to avoid the need to even learn any physical SD. To master SD in a domestic situation could take decades. Its not only the body that needs training its the mind and emotions.
    Teaching people SD for a few weeks is a dangerous counter productive activity especially with children whose parents may well think their kids are 'safe' vis, 'oh don't worry about our daughter Jane even though she is only 9 she has a black belt in TKD'. BIG mistake.

    The one of many waza that baffle me is Tsukkake. Uke attackes with a knife in his Right hand yet tori moves against ukes left hand? Talk about treating uke like a moron? I am not going to be touching an uke who jolds a knife in his Right hand with any action that still leaves Uke the chance to run me though. It has to be considered that while tori is making his defence so can uke adjust his position. See ju no kata as a classic example of this concept, also kime no kata! I don't think one catches a tiger by the tail as the teeth are at the other end? I don't know as I have never tried to catch one, that would be my first lesson and advice.

    I saw a recent you tube clip of this kata and the gun techniques I noticed something new. Uke now holds the gun in the Right hand (as always) but now with his left hand checks the 'pocket' of the trousers of tori's left pocket? How many men keep their wallets in their left pocket and how many would be attackers check the pockets themselves? The scenario is generally uke keeps well away from tori, tells tori to throw his wallet on the floor and kick it toward uke.
    The Kodokan illustrated judo book informs us that this is a modern day kata that utilises modern day attacks and defences. I suggest they look again. Gosh that sounds rather rude, no offence meant at all.

    I guess IF a judoka doesn't learn the kime no kata the goshinjutsu kata could be of some service. At present I find the kime no kata teaches those core principles and does this without the agenda that the actual waza are working SD waza and of use in todays repertoire of SD. In 2013 I cannot justify the techniques in the kodokan goshinjutsu as a modern replacement or even addition to, for the kime no kata.

    What am I missing here?  

    Come on you guys there are expert practitioners of this kata here. What should I be looking for and how can I make use of this kata. I am, at present, even less able to academically defend it than ever. I need this debate. I need to learn and find the answers.

    Many thanks,

    Mike
    Briefly. Kôdôkan goshinjutsu is not a kata, even though it is these days treated as if it were one. The same applies to Sei-ryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku.To use Daigo's words: "there are no jûdô kata after Kanô Jigorô". The last kata to jûdô were added in 1887. The definitive kata of jûdô in that sense were limited to:

    - nage-no-kata
    - katame-no-kata
    - kime-no-kata
    - jû-no-kata
    - Kitô-ryû-no-kata
    - Itsutu-no-kata
    - Gô-no-kata

    Kôdôkan goshinjutsu is not in that list. However, oftentimes these days, since they aren't "randori", three series of exercices, i.e. Sei-ryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku, Joshi jûdô goshinhô, and Kôdôkan goshinjutsu, all three which intentionally do not have the word 'kata' in it are added and mentioned together hence producing the list of 10 Kôdôkan "kata". Despite that, they aren't kata in the sense of "kata". They are "hô" or "methods". They were never intended to be "performed" as a series one after the other.

    Why were they created. Well sei-ryoku zen'yô, currently the most unpopular thing in jûdô, probably is the most important thing in Kanô's mind setting as it reflects what jûdô was intended all about: a replacement of the German- and Scandinavian-based gymnastics exercise in schools. Because of the way jûdô was marketed in the West, the message never came across and it was totally misunderstood. The "tricks" of jûdô on the other hand was what appealed, and that appeal was assured by "proving" jûdô's ability in contests against wrestlers, catchers, boxers and jûjutsuka. It was NEVER marketed in the West as a new course at school next to the traditional liberal arts disciplines such as rhetoric, etc.

    Despite Kanô's efforts and succeeding in finally getting jûdô accepted, it was also a failure. The large masses never took on jûdô in the way he intended and towards the end of his life he realized he needed to enforce the martial arts aspect to realize jûdô to the fullest. Unfortunately he had spent most of his precious time to sei-ryoku zen'yô kokumin taiiku and the whole education stuff, and by the time he was done with SZKT it was 1928 and the man had barely another decade to live, a decade in which he also no longer had the stamina he had 40 years earlier. He increasingly had become a man tied up in politics, long travel, and most likely disappointed. It's a surprise that jûdô didn't fold all together, but probably the fact that by the time he died jûdô had become interesting for the fascist faction as part of its body culture proved an "unexpected help" towards its continuation.

    Nevertheless, in terms of attempting to make jûdô more martial again, a number of plans existed. Some of these are nicely described here:

    http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=1057769

    Unfortunately, as with so many of Kanô's plans, they were unrealistic. They might have been realistic if he had been Ueshiba who spent most of his life on the tatami, but Kanô didn't. Instead, Kanô has basically quit jûdô practice by the time he was barely in the middle of his 40s. He wasn't a Mifune who continued practice and randori all the way till high age. If Kanô did anything jûdô at all, then it was a formal demonstration of Koshiki-no-kata before some dignitaries and that was that. Maybe he thought he was going to life until he was 170 years old and would do all that during his retired, but by 1932-1933, when he was already in his 70s he was still being a politician and traveling and mostly doing things that were little or not relevant to jûdô's technical contents. Not surprisingly by the time he "gave up" or was forced to give up due to accumulating illnesses, he also hadn't properly arranged for his succession. Many of those who intellectually had been the closest to him, such as Munekata, Sakuraba, Oda, had either fallen out with him, or had become chiefly intellectuals whose deep understanding of jûdô wasn't coupled to a top-dan-rank or authority to take over a leading role in jûdô after his death.

    World War II made it all even more complicated, and the sportification of jûdô in a sense became the only way out. With that the martial arts aspect failed more and more with the exception of those who had been educated at the Budô Senmongakkô and who contrary to Kôdôkan adepts were still in a real budô mind rather than as sports jûdô atmosphere.

    Nevertheless, with Kanô's death, the great engine behind jûdô as an education had fallen away too, and in the post-War period with the rebuilding of Japan and its increased openness to the West, jûdô as an education had almost become obsolete. It wasn't continued with the ideology and driving force which Kanô had represented.

    Luckily there still were a couple of jûdô-technically brilliant minds such as Mifune, who though ideologically different from Kanô, were able to put serious significance into jûdô, and perhaps also save jûdô's neck. In practice he did so by showing considerable initiative, and this he did in several defense-oriented kata, such as his own goshinjutsu, his contributions to Joshi jûdô goshinhô, and his input in Kôdôkan goshinjutsu. Kôdôkan goshinjutsu made sense since jûdô's only self-defense-oriented exercises outside of randori was Kime-no-kaa an exercise that still was based on the wearing of katana and wakizashi. Even though atrocities committed by the Japanese military still involved the use of guntô swords, really by that time people used guns if they wanted to kill you and no longer walked on the street with the weapons of a samurai. Joshi goshinhô and goshinjutsu were modern self-defenses, with the term modern intended for the 1940s and 1950s and against the background of applying a gymnastics discipline for ordinary people in the rare occasion one might be confronted with an threatening situation. It was jûdô, not jûjutsu not kenjutsu, not a discipline created with the main purpose of fighting or for those who professionally were continuously in an atmosphere of threat and danger. Therefore the idea of approaching anything in jûdô as if it were to prepare someone for that is quite absurd. Jûdô's self defense is nothing more than an APPLICATION of what is chiefly an education, and in doing so jûdô does brilliantly. You try and apply most other educational systems to defend yourself. Been to a Steiner school ? That's another type of education. You try that to defend yourself against an attack with any weapon and see how far they will get. No other educational system does as well as jûdô in providing self-defense.

    Of course a true military self-defense does, since true military self-defense was also developed purely for self-defense and not to increase your intellectual level. If you use things for what it is not meant, kind of obvious that if you then compare it with things who were specifically designed for that purpose that those are going to do better. Comparing judo in that context with Krav Maga would be absurd. As far as I know KravMaga was never developed to provide people with an education, increase their intellectual level, etc. Its only purpose was self-defense. One could as well, climb on your bike and go to a race circuit and complain that somehow your bike isn't performing as well when compared to a Ferrari. Use something for what it is not intended and you have created an equation in which the result can be perfectly predicted.

    Goshinjutsu as a method offers very useful information. You can see this when jûdôka enter MMA. They used to perform like complete idiots. What were they going to do ? Step towards someone try and grab him and break his balance and then throw him ? In your dreams ! Unfortunately many of them were dreaming and woke up only after they were knocked down. Many of them were an embarassment, ad logical and predictable embarrassment perfectly representing what judo had become: a sport. When the opponent wasn't just standing there waiting, or reacted in a different way, you got a problem. You see the same in aikidô too. Look at what they do: you got a sensei sticking out his arm, and everyone opponent in the most docile way grabs this wrist. Seriously ?! Should try this on the street next time you are threatened. Stick out our arm and see how many will grab your arm. Same for jûdô. what are you going to do ? Demonstrate happô-no-kuzushi ? Due to poor instruction jûdôka are already mislead at the lowest level when they enter shiai. Suddenly, the happô no kuzushi doesn't work anymore because they simply can't get passed the opponent's blocking arms or his bend over position. Many of them never learnt to get past it through advanced jûdô skills and only do so thanks to a combination of force, speed, surprise, and stamina, but not through jûdô. When it comes to self-defense beyond IJF rules it is even worse. Those who finally did better in MMA did so because they 'supplemented' their jûdô with MMA techniques not because they finally deepened out the full jûdô curriculum. What does goshinjutsu add to the basic jûdô curriculum ? many things.

    For example, it teaches how in a non-sports situation you achieve your result when it is impossible to grab your opponent to perform basic happô no kuzushi. It teaches how for example, kuzushi is applied through atemi. It teaches sequential self-defense. In sports jûdô action exists of nothing but a throw, eventually followed by a 1 osae-komi, choke or armbar. In goshinjutsu, one is taught a different more complex sequence which could be: atemi for kuzushi + throw or atemi + armbar/choke, etc. It does not just teach decisiveness, it teaches tai-sabaki proper to weapons, it teaches proper kuzushi against armed opponents, it teaches options which can be endlessly combined as appropriate. But of course, as so many things in jûdô this all only makes sense when one knows what one is doing and when one is properly taught.

    As with so many things in jûdô goshinjutsu is often done as caricature. In the current approach as we see in kata competition, it is becoming totally absurd. The idea that the number of steps which tori makes after an attack would be determined as is the way anyone is looking at, is totally and utterly absurd.

    Yes, tsukkake probably is not the strongest defense. Is it totally useless ? No, it isn't. It does teach some things, IF properly performed. That being said, it is virtually never properly performed. It is a very difficult technique, and admittedly, I too would think twice before using it in realistic situation. In most cases I would evidently go for the hand with the knife. But, but, it is possible to devise situations I would not. This could be seeing an attacker attack my wife with a knife while I am at the other side of the attacker, at the side he is not holding his knife. It is possible. I know how to perform tsukkake, but admittedly, I struggled with it quite sometime. I kept studying and studying it precisely because it was failing in realism. That, however, was MY mistake, not tsukkake's mistake. When I demonstrate it to my students, they will almost always say it feels totally different when I do it then when their practice partner does it. One has to study these exercises very well, not just repeat them for a rank test or competition but for effectiveness. Luckily, people like Takata-sensei or Onozawa-sensei, or Tomiki-sensei themselves offered that opportunity. You're not going to learn that from some of today's mannerism-like robotic and mechanical approaches. It's OK to miss in goshinjutsu and try again. That is logic and realist. When you see Tomiki perform it, there are instances uke attacks, tori tries to grab him, he escapes or misses and tori grabs him again. THAt IS goshinjutsu. It is NOT something where you have to end up in some specific direction, after exactly this number of steps, where everything that looks somewhat diffeferent in angle or steps from the guy who demonstrated it would be a "mistake" or a negative score. Nope, nothing like that.

    Kôdôkan goshinjutsu is a valuable contribution to jûdô just like everything in the jûdô curriculum is. Kappô are a valuable contribution too. But did you hear me say that if someone has cardiac arrest you should promptly forget about a defibrillator and epinephrine if they are available and just apply kappô ? Obviously not. Kappô are based on knowledge of hundreds of years ago, defibrillators use 20th century scientific knowledge. The choice is easily made. But ... that does not imply kappô are useless. The same situation or cardiac arrest could well occur when no defibrillator and epinephrine are available. In that occasion kappô may or may not work, and whether they work to some extent will depend on your skill and having learnt mastership in it. But, yes, your skill is not the only parameter in the equation, and yes, kappô can't achieve the same as some modern techniques, point à la ligne.



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    Jihef

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Jihef on Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:53 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Briefly.
    Nice post. Thank you.
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    BillC

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by BillC on Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:34 am

    Hanon wrote:
    What am I missing here?  
    Uh ... Mike ... indeed you written well what they call a "rant." But maybe this is not a place where you want to keep up with the times. Wink

    Random responses in return for your random rant.

    First of all ... goshinjutsu is fun ... eye candy for public demonstrations ... a good way to get judoka in the door for other kata.

    Tsukakke ... I think the point is that tori takes the arm that is closest to him BEFORE uke can draw the knife, right?

    Checking the pocket ... yes, that's a bit farfetched ... a '30s Hollywood version of a stick up ... and if you didn't noticed it's the right pocket from the front, left pocket from the back ... but it is the uke's eyes that are supposed to be the "go" signal in study.

    "Te agero!" ... is a bit of a mouthful for some people. I joking suggested to "our buddy" ... who also dislikes the Kodokan goshinjutsu ... that perhaps to score higher with judges it might be "ote wo agete kurete kudasai" ... though I probably mangled the keigo and he agreed "te agero motherf****r" was probably better for a modern movie audience.

    My sensei ... commenting when I returned from a trip to California having "learned" this non-kata noted that once upon a time as uke for his sensei in turn they had gotten a roaring round of applause by using a starting pistol to punctuate the last movement ... tori would twist sideways and uke would pull the trigger ... well Stan got a false start and when tori turned his back to the audience there was a perfectly circular gunpowder burn pattern in the center of his sensei's judogi. Smile

    I like the goshinjutsu, Mike. As I was told by my sensei at that time, and repeated many times including here on this forum, the goshinjutsu is a springboard for further study ... a peek at what is going on other places. In other words, if you study it for a while and have serious questions ... I spent a little time years ago with (then bicycle policeman) Rick Bradley practicing ways and the right circumstance to get a handgun away from someone close enough to grab ... or one can go sign up for nihonjujutsu with NBK ... or learn the somewhat longer syllabus of one of the Tomiki successors ... or go whole hog into jodo if you can find someone to teach it (and NBK knows a cute little Tokyo cop that can turn you on to a new jo made of lighter and stronger composites). And yet ... the best and most common judo self defense is right there ... osotogari used for realsie.

    Speaking of NBK ... he started a thread about taisabaki ... and it is in the goshinjutsu that my sensei clearly first introduced the concept of "train's coming, get off the track." It's there in the goshinjutsu, and very approachable to me and my students ... if we use it.

    Same for kumikata ... I have started to think of the goshinjutsu among the things done on kata Saturdays as practice in kumikata ... and I can also extract elements of it according to my sensei's style to build hand speed and effectiveness and as a cool-down and upper body stretch at the end of some competition classses.

    If that doesn't explain things then consider it was built by committee ... a Japanese committee at that!


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    Hanon

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:09 am

    Yet again I wrote a long reply only to see it disappear? I hate trying to recapture the content of a lost post.

    It is odd that mention of Krav Maga has come into the debate. The founder of KM after his military career had ended started a branch that was not too dissimilar to budo in that the KM he taught to civilians was aimed at controlling the attacker with the intent of causing the attacker the least harm. Character building was certainly part of his civilian concepts toward the training of Krav maga. The most effective person I have ever seen in a military setting where SD was being taught was an Israeli officer who was expert in Krav maga, he could have eaten me and those I was teaching for breakfast then eaten more before lunch. Off topic.

    I guess I come to the debate with prejudices My sensei where pre WW11 Busen sensei and where expert in many forms of budo also bugei. I learned atemi waza as an integral part of my judo and I guess I could say I learned two judo's in parallel, one for education with randori and shiai, the other for clear SD purposes. I have to keep reminding myself that not many of todays judoka have had a similar experience.
    Add to that my ever increasing instruction in SD to troops and I suppose I have developed a low tolerance for budo or bugei bulls++t

    I don't consider the kodokan goshinjutsu as representative of goshinjutsu not in the slightest. I was taught goshinjutsu by masters who knocked their uke out while practicing the Kime no kata. I dislike the kodokan goshinjutsu even being linked with that term. Shodokan is nearer the reality.

    There are no golden rules in SD. There is never only one way to achieve a given goal. Ueshina was infamous with his teaching as even when attacked with what looked like the same attack by the same person Ueshiba would not use the same defence twice as he felt the nuances, the differences, between each and every attack. I think it reasonable to write that Ueshiba taught principles rather than direct techniques?

    Given the daily constraints placed on todays judoka I find it even more odd that we would spend time practicing a 'kata' that is flawed. Very few exercises we do in judo are totally useless. There are billions of different attack scenarios and this is never the point when learning SD the most important points to learning any form of SD are a standard set of guide lines. Principles.

    A quote from the post of CK sensei.

    "For example, it teaches how in a non-sports situation you achieve your result when it is impossible to grab your opponent to perform basic happô no kuzushi. It teaches how for example, kuzushi is applied through atemi. It teaches sequential self-defense. In sports jûdô action exists of nothing but a throw, eventually followed by a 1 osae-komi, choke or armbar. In goshinjutsu, one is taught a different more complex sequence which could be: atemi for kuzushi + throw or atemi + armbar/choke, etc. It does not just teach decisiveness, it teaches tai-sabaki proper to weapons, it teaches proper kuzushi against armed opponents, it teaches options which can be endlessly combined as appropriate. But of course, as so many things in jûdô this all only makes sense when one knows what one is doing and when one is properly taught".

    The above quote is EXACTLY pertinent to the kime no kata. Even partly the ju no kata. I mention the ju no kata as in the dojo of my sensei in France I saw his senior deshi practice ju no kata as a form of SD also performed to both sides of the body.

    There is an imminent and immediate danger to teach SD to people and build in them a sense of false security. Over confidence is just as dangerous as low self esteem and running away is so often the best thing to do.

    In terms of tsukkake I am well aware of its nature. The majority of troop SD is knife based. It is generally not taught to control the arm of uke that is not holding the knife. If one is prepared to spend a life time of professional full time work in a dojo only practicing SD and the like then why not learn and practice every scenario under the sun. A pencil, umbrella, news paper, shoe, can all be used as weapon or article of defence. This does not even come into the equation here. What I call into question is the reasonable reality of general judo pupils learning and spending some time per year on a set of exercises called Kodokan goshinjutsu that are not today even close to being modern and the most effective against todays attackers?

    Have you any idea what other styles of bugei think of this kata? What CK sensei writes cannot be contradicted. All he writes is true. With respect to CK though we do not enjoy the full time dojo of the pre WW11 kodokan with judoka or the pre WW11 dojo of the DNBK where the students where full time 18 hours per day bugei and budoka. With this in mind I am unable so far to see the point in teaching this kata when it repeats, BADLY, another kata and also adds nothing to those who are recreational judoka.

    BillC sensei mentions its fun and helps students become interested in learning other kata, an introduction to kata. I can see this point BUT why not teach them the kime no kata as I did with all the young teens I taught?

    To CK sensei's points. I have never taught judo kata as an exercise to enter competition and am not about to start and really didn't want to even go there. I am very well aware that the culture of kata is now divided into several fragments, one being championships but I maintain the teaching I was taught and that is I don't count the steps don't care about the time each kata takes to complete and don't make it pretty. Tools rarely look good if they are well used in fact they often look in a rather awful state yet they are that way because they have worked and will continue to work. Same attitude I have toward my kata instruction.

    I cannot recall what else I wrote and lost so will close at that.

    Mike




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    Jonesy

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:24 pm

    I am travelling and will write more later. In the meantime to continue the debate I reproduce an article by my friend Martin Savage.

    Kodokan Goshin Jutsu by Martin Savage

    The term Goshin-Jutsu translates directly as Body Defence Art or more colloquially as Self-defence Techniques.

    The Kodokan committee set up to produce the Goshin-Jutsu  began work in September 1952 and was led by Nagaoka, Mifune and Samura Sensei and included Oda, Kurihara, Nakano, Ara, Ito, Ebii, Kawakami, Kikuchi, Kazuzo, Koyasu, Sawa, Suzuki, Takahashi Kisaburo, Takahashi Hamakichi, Nagahata, and Otaki Sensei. The influence of Nagaoka Sensei was however an indirect one because he died in November of that year but his earlier contribution to the development of Kime-No-Kata was important in the establishment of the more modern Goshin-Jutsu. There were at least 25 members on the committee but it varied in size over the three years that it took to complete the task. One of the most well known names from that group is Kenji Tomiki Sensei who along with Otaki Sensei went on to give the first public demonstration of the Kodokan Goshin-Jutsu at the Budokan in 1956 and later established Shodokan Aikido, more commonly known as Tomiki Aikido in 1967. Other Sensei who were part of the committee and who went on to be household names in Judo were Kotani and Kudo Sensei.

    The Kodokan Goshin-Jutsu is not called Kodokan Goshin-Jutsu no Kata in the same way as we have Nage no Kata, Katame no Kata, Ju no Kata and Kime-No-Kata etc. This would imply that the Kodokan did not initially intend that it be a kata but rather a collection of self-defence techniques grouped together to represent defences against several kinds of attack which were more contemporary than some of the Kime-No-Kata. It is however now ranked among the official Kodokan Kata although some traditionalists believe that Jigoro Kano Shihan would not have included it in his system because it doesn’t contain any of the higher ideals which were so important to him and which he incorporated into the other Kata. The influence of Tomiki Sensei can be seen in the predominance of techniques which we would usually associate with Aikido and  as Jigoro Kano described Aikido as the “Ideal Budo” this would lead us to believe that he might have been quite happy with including Goshin-Jutsu in his Kodokan Judo syllabus.

    There are those of course who do not rate the techniques in the Kata as being useful for self-defence but they are failing to see beyond the demonstration facet of the Kata in a similar way as those who regard the Nage no Kata and Katame no Kata as being irrelevant to competitive Judo. They have probably only seen the Kata in it’s demonstration form and have never used it to develop self-defence skills. The first public demonstration of the Goshin-Jutsu presented  it as it was intended, a self-defence system devoid of most of the trappings associated with Kata and as such it was a  performance with little aesthetic value but no one who has seen it can doubt its effectiveness.

    The Goshin-Jutsu was meant to supplement and complement the waza in the Kime-No-Kata, Kime Shiki, Ju no Kata, Koshiki no Kata and Goshin Ho increasing the number of defence techniques available to the Judoka to allow him to deal with a variety of life-threatening situations. These defences could be interchanged as suggested by John Cornish in his 1984 booklet on the Kata and this would further increase the repertoire of possible responses.

    Another criticism of Goshin-Jutsu is that the gun defences are not very effective and  this is borne out by an experiment carried out by the Tokyo Police with a pellet gun in which they found that in 90% of the cases the defender would have been shot while trying to execute the defence. I think that anyone who is faced with a gunman determined to shoot them will probably get shot. However I think that it was Kyuzo Mifune Sensei who said “these methods are techniques of the last resort” and as such they should not be viewed  as some miracle device certain to disarm the gunman safely. He is also reported as having said that you should look into the eyes of your assailant and determine if he has the will to shoot. If he has and his concentration wavers then you should attack first.

    Mental training in the form of Mushin (a mind free from anger, fear and ego and open to everything. It is often translated as no-mindedness), and Zanshin (The mind that maintains awareness in case of further attacks), would come as the Judoka became more efficient in the execution of the various waza and began to use them against random attacks instead of the attacks coming in a specified order as they do in the Kata. Another extension could be the use of the defences against attacks coming randomly in quick succession from different assailants approaching from different angles.

    Ideally all Judoka should undertake to gain proficiency in Kodokan Goshin-Jutsu to help move their Judo from what Jigoro Kano Shihan described as “narrow” Judo or totally competitive Judo to “wider” Judo or Jodan Judo which is more encompassing and a truer reflection of the art he developed. Admittedly the sport judoka will have developed skills such as speed, balance, timing and strength along with the ability to sense any weakness in his opponent’s balance, however he will only be familiar with attacks launched from the closest of  Ma-ai whereas with training in the Goshin-Jutsu, not only will he gain proficiency with  a variety of Atemiwaza and Kansetsuwaza not seen in Shiai  but he will be exposed to a variety of Ma-ai peculiar to each group of attacks.

    The Reigi or etiquette in this Kata is less formal than that employed in the earlier Kata created by Kano Shihan perhaps reflecting its more contemporary and utilitarian nature.

    The Kata consists of 21 Waza broadly divided into two sections; 12 Toshi no Bu or unarmed attacks and 9 Buki no Bu which are attacks with three weapons. The Toshu no Bu are further divided into 7 Kumitsukaretabai or attacks when held and 5 Hanaretabai which are attacks at a distance. The Buki no Bu consist of three defences each against Tanto no Bai (Knife attacks) Tsue no Bai (stick attacks) and Kenshu no bai or pistol attacks.

    The Kata extends the standard Judo curriculum by including wristlocks while excluding neck and leglocks. This is a measure of Kano Shihan’s regard for Aikido because it was true to its principles and avoided the overuse of strength. The kata includes Aikido waza such as Ikkyo (similar to Ude Gatame), Kote Gaeshi and Kote Hineri (wrist twists), which could be applied effectively after a relatively short period of time unlike most Judo Nagewaza which would take the student quite a while to become proficient enough to be able to use them confidently.

    In B.J.A., E.J.U. or I.J.F. Kata  competitions, the standard against which all Kata are judged is the Kodokan DVD series supplemented by a list of rules issued by the I.J.F. As in  all events which are judged in this way, such as gymnastics and ice skating, despite the guidelines there is a fair degree of  discrepancy between the judges and competing  Judoka in relation to their interpretation of these criteria. This is a fact of life and although as competitors we can moan about the lack of consistency, the reality is that kata was not devised to be competitive and the difficulties experienced in judging are in no small way due to it having that role imposed upon it.

    Almost as much time has elapsed since the Goshin-Jutsu was devised until the present day as there had been from when the Kime-No-Kata was established until the Kodokan decided that a more modern self-defence system was required. Some people now believe that the Goshin-Jutsu is now an anachronism in the same way as Kime-No-Kata was thought as obsolete in 1956. Certainly guns, knives and sticks still exist as threats but other weapons such as clubs, bottles, chains, nunchaku, peppersprays and tasers also have to be contended with in the 21st century. Judo has a limit to what it can achieve  in terms of defence against weapons and while it is possible that an attacker with any weapon may be subdued if he makes a mistake, the margin for error is very restricted and damage could still be inflicted even if a direct hit with the weapon is avoided.

    This is not however a valid reason for abandoning Goshin-Jutsu as a method of self-defence. The various defences within this and the other Kata previously mentioned, while not all encompassing as a self-defence system certainly leave someone who has practiced them richer in terms of Judo knowledge, more complete as a Judoka and most important of all safer on the street.

    Martin Savage, September  2010.

    Hanon

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:40 am

    .............."There are those of course who do not rate the techniques in the Kata as being useful for self-defence but they are failing to see beyond the demonstration facet of the Kata in a similar way as those who regard the Nage no Kata and Katame no Kata as being irrelevant to competitive Judo. They have probably only seen the Kata in it’s demonstration form and have never used it to develop self-defence skills"

    It is a relief to learn I am not alone in my dislike of the techniques.

    To suggest that because one may question the validity of the use of certain waza in the Kodokan goshinjutsu equates to a total misunderstanding of the rest of the kodokan kata is abusrd and simply unfounded. No one could write that I am not a most ardent supporter of a balanced judo curriculum that includes the practice of kata. I have written chapter and verse as to the solid foundational benefits in learning and practicing the kata starting with the randori no kata. I find the authors comments on this point incorrect and presumptuous.

    I was raised with atemi waza and or goshinjutsu. Kote, yubi waza et al, are not new to me, they are as comfortable with me as is ogoshi and kesa gatame.

    There will be some value in the practice of the kodokan goshinjutsu to those who have 'perhaps' not learned and understood the kime no kata and ju no kata or furthermore never practiced atemi waza nor goshinjutsu. This IS my dilemma. I have been practicing kime no kata and ju no kata for near five decades. I have taken so much from them both and still do to this day.

    I am yet to read a decent argument for the learning and practicing of the kodokan goshinjutsu IF one has learned the other kata in the kodokan curriculum. Add to that my military teachings and the goshinjutsu no kata still remains, so far, an anathema.

    I am looking for information that can lead me to explore something new to me. I understand what kata are and the constsnt debate about what makes a kata a kata yet this kodokan goshinjutsu is seen as a non kata almost non kodokan is another smoke screen after all it is called the KODOKAN goshinjutsu? Kata or non kata..............this is not the point and has zero to do with why I question its applications and value. I also teach and practice several different kaeshi kata that are not even kodokan kata. That fact does not detract me from their practice and identifying their core values.
    There is more to judo than what is 'just' approved by the Kodokan?

    I am trying to fish out what I should be looking for when practicing this kata. I am very well aware that most judoka of today don't even like kata. I can, however, defend them academically and physiologically as being of benefit to all judoka be they Olympians or recreational judoka (I cant believe I am using those terms).

    If we like maybe we could break down the kata and take it technique by technique, passing opinions as to the core principle behind the technique and the inter reaction between uke and tori? This may be of greater benefit to me that the generalisations we are all writing at present.

    E g first waza could be a double lapel grip by uke with a head butt to tori. I can see value and purpose in that. What do we have but a repeat of ryote dori. PLEASE consider this is supposed to be a modern kata (exercise). Why does uke give up with the 'attempted' kick? Why did uke even grasp the wrists of tori, why didn't uke just kick tori in the groin? We have seen ryote dori in at least two previous kata and understand the value of wrist escapes and atemi from such escapes also tai sabaki.
    Value in this first waza is the practice of kote hineri. One valid point I can see.

    Lets fish together and see what I can learn from you guys.

    Many thanks,

    Mike


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    BillC

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by BillC on Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:42 am

    Hanon wrote:
    E g first waza could be a double lapel grip by uke with a head butt to tori. I can see value and purpose in that. What do we have but a repeat of ryote dori. PLEASE consider this is supposed to be a modern kata (exercise). Why does uke give up with the 'attempted' kick? Why did uke even grasp the wrists of tori, why didn't uke just kick tori in the groin? We have seen ryote dori in at least two previous kata and understand the value of wrist escapes and atemi from such escapes also tai sabaki.
    Value in this first waza is the practice of kote hineri. One valid point I can see.

    Mike
    You have been doing kata much longer than I, so I can only offer my personal feelings as a polite response to your direct question.

    As Mr. Jones offered, maybe the goshinjutsu is just a way to say "there's more out there, it's modern, relevant so let's work on it and not forget about it."  I rarely agree with him on tone or attitude, but in this case he happened to have forward an article that matches the best answers I have discovered.  The answer forwarded from that guy in the North of Ireland is about the best answer you have received ... maybe you have some history with that gent but I am sorry I do not know him or his reputation ... just that it is similar to the best answers I have received to the very same questions you are asking.

    Mike ... you are asking someone to speak for dead guys in a sense, right?  I sure as shootin' ain't Haley Joel Osment.  

    To answer specifically about the knee to the huevos ... yeah, nobody would do that.  NBK and I were practicing this.  Though I outrank him in judo and probably as of late spend much more time practicing judo kata, I was looking for his particular insights because these types of goshinjutsu techniques are all he has done in 25+ years of nihonjujutsu where he is a much higher dan ... and a meticulous historian.  He whipped out Kotani-sensei's book on the subject and away we went.  So in a way the goshinjutsu IS a way to hear from dead guys about what they were thinking.  If not clear enough, then we have books they wrote to clarify our performance, and a very few remaining people who studied with them directly (by coincidence I hear that Iizumi-sensei made it back on to the mat last evening, good for him hanging in there).

    That day at his club I learned a lot from NBK about the Kodokan goshinjutsu.  Your example is good.  The ryotedori escape, which you referred to, has to pull uke forward, down and off balance.  A proper yahazu is what shuts down the kick, uke doesn't give up, one doesn't just magically yank free and bitch slap the opponent.  That's not a problem in the junokata, for example, you don't hear Christmas bells if you do it wrong.

    And the right hand's action ... forgive me if I spaced out the Japanese term ... it doesn't yank free with a turn of the body like most do ... and uke doesn't give it up either.  There's a specific fulcrum and direction that most people miss entirely.  I won't embarrass anyone by name, but I noted that people who had probably been doing junokata since I was in short pants didn't do this correctly at all ... they just kinda reached for uke's arm and uke just nicely let go.  So from that experience, Mike, two things about junokata I learned from the more rough and tumble goshinjutsu.  Worth it to me at least. You knew them going in maybe ... I learned this point by a different route.

    My own goshinjutsu performances rate pretty good, my partner and I were asked to enter "serious competition" with it. What I found is that my very proud goshinjutsu performance had some big holes like these.  My error, not the goshinjutsu.  Things were not effective because I was not doing them effectively.  I skip the word "correctly" because from what I have seen, the "correct" way for competition is sometimes not effective ... except maybe for someone with the cockiness and speed of Muhammad Ali.  To that extent I share your concern, and why I am also asking tough questions ... but because I want to make mine work ... not because I want to dump it from the program.  I couldn't give a shit about being marked down by someone that never makes their judogi sweaty, I just want to hear clearly from people like Kotani-sensei and Tomiki-sensei (may they both RIP).

    I am going to keep working on it.  If I get a chance, I am going to learn more and more about NBK's nihonjujutsu.   I think there is a big market for judo there, a way of bringing its credibility back, but doing MORE structured self defense practice, not less.

    ...

    Off-topic note ... my own peeve about the Kodokan goshinjutsu is the proliferation of fliers.  I am sorry, you do most of these kansetsu correctly, uke's arm is going to be busted into a hundred pieces at that speed.  And for goodness sake, uke, don't start at the direction you are being thrown until the technique is executed.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Jonesy on Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:10 am

    Mike, your initial post certainly is a bit extreme.

    Kodokan goshunjutsu is an aggregation of self-defence techniques.  As others have opined it is not a "something-no-kata" kata, an when its techniques are performed in a kata sequence, it is more informal than any other Kodokan kata.  If judo is about taking lessons from training in attack and defence to everyday life, well Kodokan goshinjutsu does have attacks and defences.

    One can dissect every technique in the Kodokan goshinjutsu, but it serves little purpose to do so. Goshinjutsu essentially suggests a few possible answers to specific situations - pretty much like any other Kodokan kata.  Consider the Nage-no-kata and question how realistic is the (now identical) blow aimed at the top of the head? Answer, it is nonsense, but it is how the attacks that are responded to with seoinage, uki goshi, uranage and yoko guruma  in Nage no Kata are all initiated.

    If you go looking for flaws they can be found in each and every Kodokan kata.
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    heikojr

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by heikojr on Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:04 pm

    Hanon Sensei,

    Sorry that my reply has taken so long.

    Are you saying that Kodokan Goshin-jutsu has no redeeming qualities. Nothing to offer the student? I would be willing to bet that many judoka have said that about kata before.

    Kodokan Goshin-jutsu is an introduction for most judo students to atemi waza (including striking points), to self defense, to kote-waza, weapons (defense and handling) and along with these techniques it teaches principles.

    Off note along the same thread: can I ask why is it that Itsutsu-no-kata is not taught first? It is rather simple kata... Five techniques. A full kata or "package" can be taught rather quickly. Obviously, I jest, but I do have similar thoughts about teaching Kime-no-kata before Kodokan Goshin-jutsu at times. Kime-no-kata is a very high level kata with difficult techniques and principles. Many of the techniques are the same or similar to Kodokan Goshin-jutsu. Kodokan Goshin-jutsu is meant to compliment Kime-no-kata. It should be taught just as randori-no-kata is taught. I feel this way about Koshiki-no-kata and Itsutsu-no-kata, and Ju-no-kata and Go-no-kata. Each of these kata compliment each other.

    heikojr

    Hanon

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:32 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Mike, your initial post certainly is a bit extreme.

    Kodokan goshunjutsu is an aggregation of self-defence techniques.  As others have opined it is not a "something-no-kata" kata, an when its techniques are performed in a kata sequence, it is more informal than any other Kodokan kata.  If judo is about taking lessons from training in attack and defence to everyday life, well Kodokan goshinjutsu does have attacks and defences.

    One can dissect every technique in the Kodokan goshinjutsu, but it serves little purpose to do so. Goshinjutsu essentially suggests a few possible answers to specific situations - pretty much like any other Kodokan kata.  Consider the Nage-no-kata and question how realistic is the (now identical) blow aimed at the top of the head? Answer, it is nonsense, but it is how the attacks that are responded to with seoinage, uki goshi, uranage and yoko guruma  in Nage no Kata are all initiated.

    If you go looking for flaws they can be found in each and every Kodokan kata.
    I disagree with your analysis of the nage no kata. Kano himself wrote that the two most significant techniques in the NNK where the kata seoi or todays seoinage and the tomoenage.

    it is not the unrealistic blow to the head of tori that makes seoinage questionable in terms of function, its the principle behind it. If you are ever requested to explain the principle of non resistance the perfect action would be the seoinage attack in the NNK. It clearly shows how uke attacks a tori and how said tori does not appose the force but uses it against the attacker who in fact throws himself. Its also a part of a complete story in how an attacking uke is always thwarted by the ever learning and adapting tori.

    The critique I would aim to make in the kodokan kata would be why the waza of the katame no kata only performed to one side today?

    To date I have found zero of value to learning the KGJ that cannot be found in the other kata. What's more to refer to this kata as a modern kata of SD is rubbish. Ryote dori as the introduction, really? It cannot be there as a principle as they have been covered by nearly all the previous kata so why does it begin with the same old fashioned attack as the kime and ju no kata?

    If you speak to practitioners of SD or even goshinjutsu they will nearly all ask the same group of questions that I can never answer?

    Lets turn this on its head. What have you learned from the practice of this kata or exercise if you prefer the term?

    When haven't my posts been "Extreme" Judo is an extreme subject at this level. I dislike not being in the know. I thirst for knowledge and get frustrated when I cant find it.

    Mike


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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:45 pm

    heikojr wrote:Hanon Sensei,

    Sorry that my reply has taken so long.

    Are you saying that Kodokan Goshin-jutsu has no redeeming qualities. Nothing to offer the student? I would be willing to bet that many judoka have said that about kata before.

    Kodokan Goshin-jutsu is an introduction for most judo students to atemi waza (including striking points), to self defense, to kote-waza, weapons (defense and handling) and along with these techniques it teaches principles.

    Off  note along the same thread: can I ask why is it that Itsutsu-no-kata is not taught first? It is rather simple kata... Five techniques. A full kata or "package" can be taught rather quickly. Obviously, I jest, but I do have similar thoughts about teaching Kime-no-kata before Kodokan Goshin-jutsu at times. Kime-no-kata is a very high level kata with difficult techniques and principles. Many of the techniques are the same or similar to Kodokan Goshin-jutsu. Kodokan Goshin-jutsu is meant to compliment Kime-no-kata. It should be taught just as randori-no-kata is taught. I feel this way about Koshiki-no-kata and Itsutsu-no-kata, and Ju-no-kata and Go-no-kata. Each of these kata compliment each other.

    heikojr
    Good post, good points. I guess if one does not teach the kime no kata nor the ju no kata then the goshinjustsu kata would be the way to introduce some aspects of judo principles to the novice in this area. I had not considered this point.
    Thank you for taking the time to point this out to me.

    I am surprised when some posters write they do not know wrist locks or the like? I think I am guilty of expecting others to have had the judo teachers and sensei I had plus their quality teaching and balanced lessons. Though they nearly killed me I am so thankful I had the experiences with my sensei.

    Would I be putting words in your mouth to suggest that you are saying this kata could be the first introduction to atemi waza and SD in judo? This would come down to the order ones sensei taught each of the kata? I use kime no kata as an introduction to kata with the young as they love using the arms, once their hooked, without them even realising, I have them onto the randori no kata then the kaeshi kata etc.

    In regard to the itsutsu no kata I understand your joke BUT it didn't make me laugh as there are judoka who teach and learn this kata for displays as they claim it is "only five simple techniques". As we both know those five actions are impossible to perfect and I guess we are not even supposed to achieve perfection in them, its sort of what we learn while on the road rather than what we learn when we arrive? I am truly awful at the itsutsu no kata but can make it look so nice?Cool 

    Hmmm, very interesting. Again, thanks.

    Mike


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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by wdax on Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:20 am

    If someone has the opinion, that an exercise developed by the greatest Kodokan sensei of the time - including Mifune, Kudo, Kotani, Tomiki, Okaki, Kurihara and many others - is completely flawed and useless, my first advice is to start learning from a good teacher and then - after some years of training - rethink it.

    Kodokan Goshinjutsu does not establish "new" principles in judo - except for the gun-defences - but offers some alternative defences and variations of attacks.

    In contrast to Kime-no-Kata the attacks in Kodokan-Goshinjutsu are not from a static, but from a moving situation. Some attacks are similar, but to the other side (f.ex. ganmen-tsuki and tsukkake, which both end in hadaka-jime). Another example is Ryo-te-dori. Kodokan-Goshinjutsu offers a third way of freeing the right wrist and ends in a wrist-lock against Uke´s right arm, while in Kime-no-Kata it ends in Waki-gatame against Ukes left arm.

    I could add more examples, but my point should be clear. Kodokan goshinjutsu mostly teaches applications of principles, that were already covered in Ju-no-Kata and Kime-no-Kata. But there are also exceptions.

    The first knife-defence is applied before the attack is launched, at the moment, when Uke draws the knife out of the sheath. Uke holds his arm with the knife out of reach for Tori, so Tori has to attack the other arm, force Uke down and controls his movements, keeping his body always in distance to Ukes right arm. It´s a little bit like Mizu-nagare in Koshiki-no-Kata. BTW: the fist stick defence is also launched before Uke´s strike. So the attacks with stick and knife have some similarities.

    Of course gun-defences were new to judo, so the basic principles are also not found in other kata. They can be summed up in:
    - only start a counter-attack, when the attacker´s focus is away from you
    - bring your body away from the weapon
    - grip the muzzle and
    - use it as a lever to disarm the attacker.


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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:05 am

    wdax wrote:If someone has the opinion, that an exercise developed by the greatest Kodokan sensei of the time - including Mifune, Kudo, Kotani, Tomiki, Okaki, Kurihara and many others - is completely flawed and useless, my first advice is to start learning from a good teacher and then - after some years of training - rethink it.

    Kodokan Goshinjutsu does not establish "new" principles in judo - except for the gun-defences - but offers some alternative defences and variations of attacks.

    Hi WDax sensei, I hear you loud and clear.Smile 

    We are going off topic but as you raised several points may I respond?

    Judo is born from bugei. Judo began the synthesis that lead toward the concepts of budo, moving away from the bugei toward an education of the individual. The innovators of judo, like kano Shihan and his uchideshi of old, where mostly, though not all, very VERY well versed in the koryo. In other words kano and his uchideshi not only understood bugei to a high level they where able to make use of that invaluable knowledge when formulating judo over the years 1882-1937.

    Can you tell me the koryo experience of those who developed the kodokan goshinjutsu? To the best of my limited knowledge the majority of the input and development was taken by Tomiki. A great Aikidoka and one that eventually formulated his own style, Shodokan, and eventually toward the end of his life he also became a kodokan 8th dan being graded 8th dan in aikido 40 years (?) before his rank of 8th dan in judo.

    I have every confidence that the sensei who developed this kata knew their judo. I have not read a post that questions this point? To that end I have no idea why you would raise it? While in Japan I was always taken under the wing of direct deshi of Kudo kazuzo sensei who I would consider one of the greatest teachers of kodokan judo. Sato T himself is now a Kodokan 9th dan:) 

    Let me ask you a more simple question. If the same masters who formulated the KGJ kata had formulated a karatedo or kendo kata would this make said kata of value? After all you wrote yourself that these sensei where, and I quote "The greatest Kodokan sensei of the time". Absurd notion BUT non the less these same sensei of judo devised a kata on goshinjutsu? I may also add that Kotani sensei is the sensei who made numerous revisions to the koshiki no kata.

    You and I can get together and formulate a kata of self defence. I have over 45 years experience of teaching both judoka and the military SD.
    I very much doubt we would ever do that though as we both understand that a kata is more than the sum of its total parts. EVERY other kata in the kodokan syllabus has a specific theme enrolled in specific principles. The kime no kata is not about learning how to defend oneself against those specific attacks. We both fully grasp the concept that the kime no kata is learned and practiced to improve our understanding of tai sabaki, action-reaction, shisei, speed, co-ordination, timing, kuzushi, observation, zanshin, the list goes on and on.

    You have said yourself that the KGJ is an addition to the other kata of kodokan judo. It is this very point I question. From a pure sporting judoka's point of view I am certain some will and do benefit from its practice. I am equally certain that this kata is not representative of goshinjutsu nor kodokan self defence. It is not modern. It teaches nothing the kime no kata doesn't teach.

    I have read referral to wrist locks as being one area that this kata introduces the sporting judoka. Today I accept this may well unfortunately be fact.
    That is so sad though and only further enforces my observation that today kodokan judo has been reduced to a wrestling sport where its educational and SD aspects have long been neglected at the expense of training for competition.

    My sensei where non sporting sensei, they where pre WW11 Busen and not post war kodokan. To that end my sensei where expert in numerous areas of both bugei and budo and I was raised with leg, wrist and finger locks not to mention neck and spine locks etc. Maybe, I don't know, this is why non of them would have the KGJ taught on their tatami? I cant answer for them they are sadly all dead. It 'could' be political, I have to concede that. DNBK 'V' Kodokan sort of 'games'? Maybe I am a victim of past political games? All these things have to be taken into consideration when I look at my attitude and perspective toward the KGJ.  

    I can assure you if you taught active troops who only have a very limited time frame to learn SD and you tried to control the opposite arm of the one that was holding a knife vis tsukkake, you would run into trouble. Is it possible, maybe, is it wise or would you train this to become a habit? I think not.

    I ask you to consider that this is a kata of goshinjutsu, its in the name. In terms of goshinjutsu it does not always represent the most effective methods of attack nor reaction. This become complex as no attack and reaction can ever be said to be 100% wrong. Some attackers in the street will be idiots who are trying their luck and can easily be overcome. To that end every scenario we learn in terms of SD may have an eventual use. Obviously this includes the attacks and defences in the KGJ. Ones time, if unlimited, is not wasted. May I pass a further example. SD on different surfaces. How many of todays judoka even train SD on different surfaces like sand, wet, hills, slopes, with their back against a wall, inside a vehicle, confined space etc? Without a judogi

    I liked the reply from Heikojr. I can see value in learning the KGJ if one doesn't first learn the other basic kodokan kata. I can also accept that for todays sporting competition orientated judoka that this kata would certainly be their first introduction to kote kansetsu waza. It is also entertaining.

    Many thanks for your invaluable input my friend. I always look forward to your posts.

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:14 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : small addition)


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:32 am

    I think that wdax raises some important points, Hanon-sensei.

    He is very right that this series of methods teaches principles. There are several parts of Kôdôkan goshinjutsu that I have successfully applied in randori and competition ... INCLUDING in NEWAZA (!) even though there is NO newaza in Kôdôkan goshinjutsu.

    I know too that you have had some great jûdô-teachers, Hanon, Abe Kenshirô, Michigami Haku, Kudô Kazuzô, Satô Tetsuya to just mention four, but ... I honestly do not know who was your Kôdôkan goshinjutsu teacher. You are not specifying this. You have only said that you learnt jûdô from them. It would be helpful though to know who actually was your Kôdôkan goshinjutsu teacher.

    I personally dislike katame-no-kata. Why ? Because even though when I started learning it, my performance of katame-no-kata improved, I can honestly say that it did not improve my jûdô making me wonder why it was there. But ... I never concluded from it that just because "I" did not see its use that it therefore was useless. There are many things I suck at. I absolutely cannot draw pictures. It would be a stretch to concluded from that that therefore all painters and people who can are not doing anything useful. Anyhow, back to katame-no-kata. It was the one kata which I hated practicing and thus I did not practice it, unless I had to do my nidan exam and one of my coaching certifications for where it was also on the program. But ... I have a duty to my students, and luckily had some great teachers, some of whom could do an inspiring katame-no-kata. But as brilliant as their kata was it still did not tell me why I had to do THIS and what more I would learn by doing that instead of simply doing newaza randori. I wondered if some excellent newaza people like Neil Adams, Fabio what's his name again, Kashiwazaki, Kurimura all practised Katame-waza. But over time I learnt that my view was wrong. How did I learn it. Well, when I noticed my students doing newaza, I did not understand why they made such a mess of it. They all did excellent katame-waza, but their newaza sucked. Let me clarify. Well, from the moment any of them got in osaekomi, armbar or choke hold, all they did was use erratic force to get out of it. None used technique. When I would ask any of them to show katame-waza for the group, they could do it, they could also show nogare-kata and turnovers, entries, but if I asked any of them to systematically show the escapes of each osaekomi, kansetsu-waza, or shime-waza, it was a mess. I found this intriguing. It was intriguing because I had taught them all that. So, clearly there is an issue of retention of knowledge, which I blame on the poorly known structure of newaza, which in Kôdôkan is far less didactically organized then tachi-waza. What people do not understand, is that interestingly katame-no-kata does just that (in addition to other things). Where there is a problem is that people FAIL to see that katame-no-kata too teaches PRINCIPLES, yet people only learn the demonstration and forget the principles and do not translate them to randori and newaza overall. This is in part the teacher's failing. It is for that reason that wdax's comment is very important.

    The same problem is ubiquitous. I noticed at the Kôdôkan that only the most experienced teachers (Daigo, Abe, Umezu) seem to be able to transgress the pure mechanics and blunt memorization of form. Daigo does this the most extensively, but unfortunately, because he teaches mainly koshiki-no-kata, his teachings are often way over the head of the Westerners present. They can't see what he teaches, because they can't see the layers. They only have one layer, that of mechanics and copying what they see. When he teaches of hontai, no on gets it, and from the moment they get up they do exactly the same as before, namely being concerned they do all the steps right and copy the exact same speed, position and everything else nonsensical that has nothing to do with it. I don't think I have seen anyone teach principles of Goshinjutsu at the Kôdôkan since Takata and Kotani.

    I don't know if anyone noticed, but the way wdax explained tsukkake, even though very concisely, contains more substance than what most teachers do or say. In other words, one must UNDERSTAND the movement. Neither me, nor wdax CLAIM that every movement is the absolute best or most effective anyone could come up with, but useless it is not, IF, IF ... IF ... one understands it and does it properly. If you disagree, very well, your right, and if you ever are attacked God forbid, then don't use it and use something else and conclude with tai-otoshi or whatever. The principle is that you survive by doing jûdô not if you are ever attacked in a specific way that you MUST do this very defense. Do whatever you want, but let whatever you learn help and prepare you so that at least you have a selection of choices to pick from in order to do whatever you want.

    With regard to what the koryû experience was of every sensei ... if you are patient I will address these things when I write out the goshinjutsu chapter for my book. I am not kidding since this part will probably be useful to also first publish in article form, so no need to wait for 20 more years. I should be able to complete that over the next two years. One example though, the koryû experience of Samura Kaichirô was in Takeuchi Santô-ryû jûjutsu, the experience of Nagaoka Kaichirô was in Kitô-ryû jûjutsu Noda-ha branch. Mifune is an interesting case apparently not having been active in koryû yet having been one of the greatest creative minds in jûdô including the exploration of its martial arts and torite-like connections.

    You point out that every kata has a principle ("has a specific theme enrolled in specific principles."), and add that "this kata is not representative of goshinjutsu nor kodokan self defence. It is not modern. It teaches nothing the kime no kata doesn't teach." In other words though some of us have already explained what this theme and principle are you bluntly refuse see ir accept it simply by saying it is not.

    Again, I have said that "modern" does not mean "contemporary". "Modern" means post-feudal era. Kime-no-kata is not post-feudal era. Kime-no-kata is medieval, that is "Japanese medieval" thus reflecting that what was common in the Japanese Middle Ages, i.e. before 1867, hence why it still has defenses against katana and wakizashi in it. People do not walk around with katana and wakizashi in "modern times", i.e. the late 19th century and early 20th century. That is MODERN, not 2013. 2013 is Contemporary.

    Secondly, you seem to confuse the work "goshinjutsu" as used in "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu" with the DISCIPLINE of "goshinjutsu" as an analogue to "jujutsu" or "modern jûjutsu". This is a semantic issue. "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu" has nothing (well, "nothing" is somewhat exaggerated) to do with the art of "Goshinjutsu". When I say: "I practice jûdô, aikidô, goshinjutsu, and taekwondô, that "goshinjutsu" in this context has nothing to do with practicing "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu" which thus is jûdô.

    "Goshinjutsu" simply means "self defense". The series in Kôdôkan could well have received a different name. Also, the term "modern" is something in the West we have added to clarify a couple of things. The term "modern" in reality is not included in the phrase "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu". The word "jutsu" as it is part of "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu" is NOT an indication as this somehow being part of koryû or bugei arts which end in -jutsu (taijutsu, iaijutsu, kenjutsu, aikijutsu). So Kôdôkan goshinjutsu or even goshinjutsu is not part of bugei, so one should not have any such expectations. The use of the term "-jutsu" is not as strict and pefectly used as the late Donn Draeger might have suggested. To put it more bluntly "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu" is a "dô", NOT a "-jutsu" !! Sorry, don't blame me, I didn't do it !!

    It is not true that Kôdôkan goshinjutsu from a point of principles does not add anything to what Kime-no-kata does, and in fact wdax pointed out one of those things, namely dynamic displacements. In kime-no-kata, you are in a set position, there aren't really any distant attacks except for one fist attack and one sword attack. Goshinjutsu has distant attacks. The differences are clearly explained in its subsections. There is toshi-no-bu, and there is buki-no-bu. The two are clearly different. There is kumi tsukareta ba-ai, that is very specific and very different from Hanareta ba-ai; the first indicates a series of attacks that come from a person you are already in contact with who is close by, the second are from an attacker sudenly coming from afar. That is different and specific principle than in kime-no-kata. It is modern in the sense that people in goshinjutsu are no longer seated on their knees. In modern situations people sit on chairs, not on the ground.

    In other words, it simply is not true that Kôdôkan goshinjutsu does not teach other principles or additional principles to kime-no-kata. One can dislike them, one can refuse to teach it, but to say that some of these things are not there is factually untrue. That does not mean that there aren't any flaws, perhaps even critical, but that is a whole other discussion.

    It's OK to play the devil's advocate, but you do sound a bid a bad boy with regard to this kata, absolutely refusing to see any sense in it even after people have clarified a number of crucial things.


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    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:11 am

    CK sensei wrote, Quote. "That does not mean that there aren't any flaws, perhaps even critical, but that is a whole other discussion".

    It is that discussion that I am looking for.

    CK sensei also wrote, Quote..."Goshinjutsu" simply means "self defense". The series in Kôdôkan could well have received a different name. Also, the term "modern" is something in the West we have added to clarify a couple of things. The term "modern" in reality is not included in the phrase "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu". The word "jutsu" as it is part of "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu" is NOT an indication as this somehow being part of koryû or bugei arts which end in -jutsu (taijutsu, iaijutsu, kenjutsu, aikijutsu). So Kôdôkan goshinjutsu or even goshinjutsu is not part of bugei, so one should not have any such expectations. The use of the term "-jutsu" is not as strict and pefectly used as the late Donn Draeger might have suggested. To put it more bluntly "Kôdôkan goshinjutsu" is a "dô", NOT a "-jutsu" !! Sorry, don't blame me, I didn't do it !!"

    I don't know how to respond to that? Should I read this paragraph as the kodokan goshinjutsu is not about the techniques of goshinjutsu?

    Mike





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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

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    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Total Crazy Rant about Kodokan Goshin jutsu

    Post by Hanon on Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:15 am

    I think it best I go do an awful lot more study and practice then report back here in the next 30 years.

    Thanks for all the contributions I appreciate them.

    Thread closed.


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    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

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