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    Hanon

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    How we walk

    Post by Hanon on Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:10 am

    I thought the following rather interesting. Nothing new but some may benefit from its reading? I do not know the author.


    "How you move gives a lot away. Maybe too much, if the wrong person is watching. We think, for instance, that the way people walk can influence the likelihood of an attack by a stranger. But we also think that their walking style can be altered to reduce the chances of being targeted.
    A small number of criminals commit most of the crimes, and the crimes they commit are spread unevenly over the population: some unfortunate individuals seem to be picked out repeatedly by those intent on violent assault. Back in the 1980s, two psychologists from New York, Betty Grayson and Morris Stein, set out to find out what criminals look for in potential victims. They filmed short clips of members of the public walking along New York's streets, and then took those clips to a large East Coast prison. They showed the tapes to 53 violent inmates with convictions for crimes on strangers, ranging from assault to murder, and asked them how easy each person would be to attack.
    The prisoners made very different judgements about these notional victims. Some were consistently rated as easier to attack, as an "easy rip-off". There were some expected differences, in that women were rated as easier to attack than men, on average, and older people as easier targets than the young. But even among those you’d expect to be least easy to assault, the subgroup of young men, there were some individuals who over half the prisoners rated at the top end of the "ease of assault" scale (a 1, 2 or 3, on the 10 point scale).
    The researchers then asked professional dancers to analyse the clips using a system called Laban movement analysis – a system used by dancers, actors and others to describe and record human movement in detail. They rated the movements of people identified as victims as subtly less coordinated than those of non-victims.
    Although Professors Grayson and Stein identified movement as the critical variable in criminals' predatory decisions, their study had the obvious flaw that their films contained lots of other potentially relevant information: the clothes the people wore, for example, or the way they held their heads. Two decades later, a research group led by Lucy Johnston of the University of Canterbury, in New Zealand, performed a more robust test of the idea.
    The group used a technique called the point light walker. This is a video recording of a person made by attaching lights or reflective markers to their joints while they wear a black body suit. When played back you can see pure movement shown in the way their joints move, without being able to see any of their features or even the limbs that connect their joints.
    Research with point light walkers has shown that we can read characteristics from joint motion, such as gender or mood. This makes sense, if you think for a moment of times you've recognised a person from a distance, long before you were able to make out their face. Using this technique, the researchers showed that even when all other information was removed, some individuals still get picked out as more likely to be victims of assault than others, meaning these judgements must be based on how they move.
    Walk this way
    But the most impressive part of Johnston’s investigations came next, when she asked whether it was possible to change the way we walk so as to appear less vulnerable. A first group of volunteers were filmed walking before and after doing a short self defence course. Using the point-light technique, their walking styles were rated by volunteers (not prisoners) for vulnerability. Perhaps surprisingly, the self-defence training didn't affect the walkers’ ratings
    In a second experiment, recruits were given training in how to walk, specifically focusing on the aspects which the researchers knew affected how vulnerable they appeared: factors affecting the synchrony and energy of their movement. This led to a significant drop in all the recruits' vulnerability ratings, which was still in place when they were re-tested a month later.
    There is school of thought that the brain only exists to control movement. So perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that how we move can give a lot away. It's also not surprising that other people are able to read our movements, whether it is in judging whether we will win a music competition, or whether we are bluffing at poker. You see how someone moves before you can see their expression, hear what they are saying or smell them. Movements are the first signs of others’ thoughts, so we've evolved to be good (and quick) at reading them.
    The point light walker research a great example of a research journey that goes from a statistical observation, through street-level investigations and the use of complex lab techniques, and then applies the hard won knowledge for good: showing how the vulnerable can take steps to reduce their appearance of vulnerability."


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    Jihef

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Jihef on Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:07 pm

    Hanon wrote:I thought the following rather interesting. Nothing new but some may benefit from its reading? I do not know the author.
    Tom Stafford, apparently.

    How the way we walk can increase risk of being mugged
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    NBK

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by NBK on Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:58 pm

    'How we walk' = posture and attitude.

    They affect near everything.

    Including your own attitude.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:44 am

    The first scroll of Kitô-ryû is called "Hontai-no-maki", for good reason ...


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    Kaji

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Kaji on Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:16 pm

    I would like to share this TED talk video, about a research into how certain posture can have effects on the testosterone and cortisol levels in the brain:

    http://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are?language=en
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    NBK

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by NBK on Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:09 am

    Hanon wrote:I thought the following rather interesting. Nothing new but some may benefit from its reading? I do not know the author.

    "How you move gives a lot away. Maybe too much, if the wrong person is watching. We think, for instance, that the way people walk can influence the likelihood of an attack by a stranger. But we also think that their walking style can be altered to reduce the chances of being targeted.
    。。。。
    But even among those you’d expect to be least easy to assault, the subgroup of young men, there were some individuals who over half the prisoners rated at the top end of the "ease of assault" scale (a 1, 2 or 3, on the 10 point scale).
    。。。They rated the movements of people identified as victims as subtly less coordinated than those of non-victims.
    。。。
    Research with point light walkers has shown that we can read characteristics from joint motion, such as gender or mood.。。。。
    Walk this way
    But the most impressive part of Johnston’s investigations came next, when she asked whether it was possible to change the way we walk so as to appear less vulnerable. A first group of volunteers were filmed walking before and after doing a short self defence course. Using the point-light technique, their walking styles were rated by volunteers (not prisoners) for vulnerability. Perhaps surprisingly, the self-defence training didn't affect the walkers’ ratings
    In a second experiment, recruits were given training in how to walk, specifically focusing on the aspects which the researchers knew affected how vulnerable they appeared: factors affecting the synchrony and energy of their movement. This led to a significant drop in all the recruits' vulnerability ratings, which was still in place when they were re-tested a month later.
    There is school of thought that the brain only exists to control movement. So perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that how we move can give a lot away. It's also not surprising that other people are able to read our movements, whether it is in judging whether we will win a music competition, or whether we are bluffing at poker. You see how someone moves before you can see their expression, hear what they are saying or smell them. Movements are the first signs of others’ thoughts, so we've evolved to be good (and quick) at reading them.
    The point light walker research a great example of a research journey that goes from a statistical observation, through street-level investigations and the use of complex lab techniques, and then applies the hard won knowledge for good: showing how the vulnerable can take steps to reduce their appearance of vulnerability."
    I had a long discussion with a professional poker player last year. His take was instructive, and drives right to the heart of the discussion. Making a living off others' 'tells' (subtle, or, in my case, not so subtle ['Holy Smoke, whatta hand!' is apparently not subtle enough...] he had fascinating insights into the visual aspects of human character.

    One fascinating aside was his discussion of puffing up, expanding your physical appearance to maintain the appearance of dominance, even if the situation did not warrant it (a bad hand, a loosing game....). He related a couple of instances where he'd done it in tournaments and felt it had helped him with the weaker players.

    I showed him the traditional hands up kiai entry to kumitachi and he identified with that. Showed me a stretch that he used sometimes to do the same - lean back, big motion to indicate all is well and I feel good....

    Cichorei Kano wrote:The first scroll of Kitô-ryû is called "Hontai-no-maki", for good reason ...

    Once in a training session Daigo sensei told my group that he could tell from the first step how well someone would perform Koshiki no Kata.

    Elsewhere I wrote of the importance of shizentai. Does Honai no Maki go beyond shizentai?

    Happy New Year,
    NBK

    wdax

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by wdax on Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:53 am

    Happy New Year!

    NBK wrote:Elsewhere I wrote of the importance of shizentai.  Does Honai no Maki go beyond shizentai?

    Happy New Year,
    NBK

    Shizentai usually refers (only) to a posture. Hontai in Kitô-ryu is not only a posture, but a physical and mental state which has to be adopted (found no better word) in rest and in motion - even during attack and defense.

    Anatol

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Anatol on Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:46 am

    Hi wdax

    The philosophical foundation of "hontai" is in Zen Buddism and Daoism. "Hontai" is the same as "buddha nature" (true self) in Zen Buddhism and the same as "wu xin" (mu shin) and "yi xin" (isshin) in Daoism. The text (hontai no maki) says also, that you can not use "qi" (vital energy), if you dont have a state of "hontai" (empty and open mind and no form). In Daoism you would call this a "qing jing shen" (clear and calm spirit). If you have "hontai" your body will be complete. There are also some speculations about principle (li)  and matter (qi) (which is neoconfucianist) and form and emptiness (which is buddhist). Also in Neoconfucianism there is the "doctrine of the mean" (zong yong), which focus on harmony (he) in the middle of emotions. "Hontai" seems to combine/extract from all three teachings.


    I do remember a discussion in the old Judo Forum, were I translated a text of Katsu Kaishū from trad. Hanzi into english:

    With an empty mind
    (wu xin= no heart = no heart/mind = without thoughts, expectations, concepts, plans, emotions, desire)

    enter

    the naturalness/ spontanity
    (ziran = you are like the Dao = ziran = self so)

    of

    the mysterious/wounderful
    (miao = the offspring of all life, miao)

    Without any action
    (wu wei)

    !

    after all (exercises and experiences)

    (you will) transform

    to spirit
    (shen = you have connection with the Dao, you are rambling boundless in the infinite)

    .
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    finarashi

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by finarashi on Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:36 am

    How can you tell if someone can play piano? How can you see if someone can play violin or guitar. In movies and TV we often see only the upper body of an actor without hands and even then one can often tell wheter one plays piano or not.

    If you look at professional musicians taking out their violin before the concert you see some differeces. It is educational to look the person who is the lead violinist (closest to the audience and conductor) and compare his behavior to others.

    It is educational to look at builders and butcers and .. and look how the real pro's handel themselves.


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    Anatol

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Anatol on Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:49 pm

    To the subject "naturalness" (ziran) and "skills" (de, shi) and "mastery" (shu) there are a lot of fine stories in the Zhuangzi.

    Most of them have to do with "xu xin" = "mu shin" (no mind).

    Two examples:


    A) Art:

    The artisan Chui made things round (and square) more exactly than if he had used the circle and square. The operation of his fingers on (the forms of) things was like the transformations of them (in nature), and required no application of his mind; and so his Intelligence was entire and encountered no resistance.

    To be unthought of by the foot that wears it is the fitness of a shoe;
    to be unthought of by the waist is the fitness of a girdle.

    When one's wisdom does not think of the right or the wrong (of a question under discussion), that shows the suitability of the mind (for the question); when one is conscious of no inward change, or outward attraction, that shows the mastery of affairs. He who perceives at once the fitness, and never loses the sense of it, has the fitness that forgets all about what is fitting.

    http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/full-understanding-of-life#n2850



    B) Movement:

    The kui said to the millipede, 'With my one leg I hop about, and can hardly manage to go along. Now you have a myriad feet which you can employ; how is it that you are so abundantly furnished?' The millipede said, 'It is not so. Have you not seen one ejecting saliva? The largest portion of it is like a pearl, while the smaller portions fall down like a shower of mist in innumerable drops. Now I put in motion the springs set in me by Heaven (nature), without knowing how I do so.'

    http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/floods-of-autumn#n2823



    C) "mu shin" and "hon tai":


    'I venture to ask what that fasting of the mind is,' said Hui, and Zhongni answered,

    'Maintain a perfect unity in every movement of your will,
    You will not wait for the hearing of your ears about it, but for the hearing of your mind.
    You will not wait even for the hearing of your mind, but for the hearing of the spirit.

    Let the hearing (of the ears) rest with the ears.
    Let the mind rest in the verification (of the rightness of what is in the will).

    But the spirit is free from all pre-occupation and so waits for (the appearance of) things.
    Where the (proper) course is, there is freedom from all pre-occupation;
    such freedom is the fasting of the mind.'




    P.S.: Does anybody have the english translation of "hontai no maki"?


    .

    wdax

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by wdax on Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:50 pm

    Anatol wrote:P.S.: Does anybody have the english translation of "hontai no maki"?

    I have a german one: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29122198/Hontai-no-Maki.jpg
    Cool

    And also for those who can read german I recommend the dissertation of the translater of the above Hontai-no-Maki:
    https://publikationen.uni-tuebingen.de/xmlui/handle/10900/46271

    It not only contains the above translation of Hontai-no-Maiki, but also a lot of further explanations.

    English Abstract:

    The thesis describes the philosophical, ethical and combative ideals of the warriors during the Tokugawa-era. This takes place by examining the main concepts (mushin, isshin, ji-ri and others), which are borrowed from Taoism, Konfucianism and Buddhism. It works out and explains the the derivation of the concepts and their meaning in the specifically context of the topic as well as the connections of the three spheres among themselves. The appendix contains the translation of three representative basic textes of that epoch (Bansenshûkai - Shôshin, Heihô okugi koroku - Onmyô heigen; Ittôsai-sensei kenpôsho).
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    NBK

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by NBK on Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:04 am

    wdax wrote:Happy New Year!

    NBK wrote:Elsewhere I wrote of the importance of shizentai.  Does Honai no Maki go beyond shizentai?

    Happy New Year,
    NBK

    Shizentai usually refers (only) to a posture. Hontai in Kitô-ryu is not only a posture, but a physical and mental state which has to be adopted (found no better word) in rest and in motion - even during attack and defense.

    I have probably a score of pre-WWII judo books that devote entire chapters to shizentai - while I've not bothered to translate any of them, are you sure that Kano shihan considered shizentai to be anything other than a physical and mental state?


    Anatol

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Anatol on Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:49 am

    Danke wdax!

    I think, its really a proper translation from Julian Braun. Many translators have no background in philosophy, which makes their translations useless, because they dont understand the core principles and the context.



    To me also interesting are the kanji of "hontai" =

    本體

    left side = ben = root (of a tree)

    right side = ti = body


    "ben" also means "origin", "source", "base".


    Sometimes it can be misleading to break up compounds, but in this context I think it is interesting.




    .

    Anatol

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Anatol on Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:06 am

    If we go back to "shizen tai" 自然  体

    left side = ziran = natural
    right side = ti = body


    "Ziran" is a daoist concept of going with nature and not against nature. If you go with nature, you will save a lot of energy and your actions and non actions will be fluent and most effective. "Ziran" is not a body posture, its a state of mind and spirit. The mind is empty and the spirit is calm and clear. The spirit moves the energy, the energy moves the body. This is not something "esoteric" its most natural. "Naturalness" to human means to use that in a best way (do), in what they really excell as beings: Mind and Spirit. "Mind over Muscle" and "seiryoku zenyo" (best use of energy and spirit).

    .

    wdax

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by wdax on Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:28 am

    NBK wrote:
    wdax wrote:(...) Shizentai usually refers (only) to a posture. (...)

    I have probably a score of pre-WWII judo books that devote entire chapters to shizentai - while I've not bothered to translate any of them, are you sure that Kano shihan considered  shizentai to be anything other than a physical and mental state?

    I tried to choose my words very carefully, that´s why I wrote "usually". If we read western books, we usually find pictures of shizentai, migi-shizentai, hidari-shizentai only explained as a stance or posture. In explanations of nage-waza we very often read something like "Tori and Uke take a standard grip in migi-shizentai...." etc.

    But I´m pretty sure, that Kano-shihan when talking/writing about shizentai had Kito-ryu´s hontai in mind....
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    NBK

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by NBK on Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:17 am

    wdax wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    wdax wrote:(...) Shizentai usually refers (only) to a posture. (...)

    I have probably a score of pre-WWII judo books that devote entire chapters to shizentai - while I've not bothered to translate any of them, are you sure that Kano shihan considered  shizentai to be anything other than a physical and mental state?

    I tried to choose my words very carefully, that´s why I wrote "usually". If we read western books, we usually find pictures of shizentai, migi-shizentai, hidari-shizentai only explained as a stance or posture. In explanations of nage-waza we very often read something like "Tori and Uke take a standard grip in migi-shizentai...." etc.

    But I´m pretty sure, that Kano-shihan when talking/writing about shizentai had Kito-ryu´s hontai in mind....
    Exactly.

    I think it's easier to delineate.  Most _postwar_ books drop the instruction of shizentai as a basic of judo, with a couple of exceptions.  I run into supposedly advanced, sports oriented judoka who have no idea of the basics of body position or taisabaki, the basic, classic body movements.

    But postwar, judo in general was simply trying to become relevant again after the postwar public facility (including schools) budo ban.  Much of the detail and richness of prewar judo teaching, that which was left after the militarization of budo training in the 1930-40's, was pretty much left out.  

    I saw a great example of shizentai in action last night in the Daidojo of the Kodokan.  A big, strapping young German, in town for a week or so, came in first time.  He asked me about what to to do, and I explained briefly and went to my own training.  

    Later I watched him in randori with Kariya Chikara of the International Div.  Although the German was much bigger, stronger, much longer reach, Kariya sensei remained upright, in shizentai, moving smoothly and quickly when needed, not anticipating, not lagging, simply moving in balance.  

    Some would think that would be the result of long years of experience, but I think it can be taught much earlier.  Kano shihan and others wrote of how to train that balance, and shizentai was the basis of that instruction.

    NBK
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    BillC

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by BillC on Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:10 pm

    Not being a smart ass in any way ... the best movement and balance in our dojo is present in our members who spend a substantial amount of time surfing. Similar shizentai skill in all respects.


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
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    NBK

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by NBK on Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:58 pm

    Absolutely - surfers, skate boarders, gymnasts, some dance, etc. I don't think that odd at all. All provide great body control training.

    One of the stronger guys I ever taught was a college wrestler. Had a horrible, odd gait, very strange walk. Very very strong in newaza but a spazz standing. If you could stay standing (and convince him not to take the easy path w a double leg takedown) he was relatively easy to control as he was so stiff.

    He simply didn't know how to walk.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:26 am

    NBK wrote:
    wdax wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    wdax wrote:(...) Shizentai usually refers (only) to a posture. (...)

    I have probably a score of pre-WWII judo books that devote entire chapters to shizentai - while I've not bothered to translate any of them, are you sure that Kano shihan considered  shizentai to be anything other than a physical and mental state?

    I tried to choose my words very carefully, that´s why I wrote "usually". If we read western books, we usually find pictures of shizentai, migi-shizentai, hidari-shizentai only explained as a stance or posture. In explanations of nage-waza we very often read something like "Tori and Uke take a standard grip in migi-shizentai...." etc.

    But I´m pretty sure, that Kano-shihan when talking/writing about shizentai had Kito-ryu´s hontai in mind....
    Exactly.

    I think it's easier to delineate.  Most _postwar_ books drop the instruction of shizentai as a basic of judo, with a couple of exceptions.  I run into supposedly advanced, sports oriented judoka who have no idea of the basics of body position or taisabaki, the basic, classic body movements.

    But postwar, judo in general was simply trying to become relevant again after the postwar public facility (including schools) budo ban.  Much of the detail and richness of prewar judo teaching, that which was left after the militarization of budo training in the 1930-40's, was pretty much left out.  

    I saw a great example of shizentai in action last night in the Daidojo of the Kodokan.  A big, strapping young German, in town for a week or so, came in first time.  He asked me about what to to do, and I explained briefly and went to my own training.  

    Later I watched him in randori with Kariya Chikara of the International Div.  Although the German was much bigger, stronger, much longer reach, Kariya sensei remained upright, in shizentai, moving smoothly and quickly when needed, not anticipating, not lagging, simply moving in balance.  

    Some would think that would be the result of long years of experience, but I think it can be taught much earlier.  Kano shihan and others wrote of how to train that balance, and shizentai was the basis of that instruction.

    NBK

    For the most part, proper posture, movement, and gripping are hallmarks of good judo, sport oriented or not. I get to watch a lot of young judoka coming up through the ranks, training and then competing, from a variety of clubs.

    Whether or not they are specifically trained in shizentai, etc., or not, the good ones have it.

    I specifically train my students that way, and emphasize it all the time. Posture (shizenhontai, mostly), tai sabaki, gripping, linked to movement and throwing, as well as when doing katame waza (ne waza mostly).



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:28 am

    BillC wrote:Not being a smart ass in any way ... the best movement and balance in our dojo is present in our members who spend a substantial amount of time surfing.  Similar shizentai skill in all respects.

    Equestrians are usually very centered as well, and down-hill skiers. Not too many surfers in North Idaho, although I do know one...

    Ever tried sail boarding ? I did, and despite that it was 25 years ago, well, it wasn't pretty !


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    NBK

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by NBK on Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:31 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    BillC wrote:Not being a smart ass in any way ... the best movement and balance in our dojo is present in our members who spend a substantial amount of time surfing.  Similar shizentai skill in all respects.

    Equestrians are usually very centered as well, and down-hill skiers. Not too many surfers in North Idaho, although I do know one...

    Ever tried sail boarding ? I did, and despite that it was 25 years ago, well, it wasn't pretty !
    I did once. For an hour. It was the only exercise that left more bruises on my shins than judo.

    M Parfers

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    Re: How we walk

    Post by M Parfers on Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:28 am

    Walking is the essence of Noh and Kabuki. It teaches hoe to connect with Hara and our essential being.

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