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    What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

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    Cichorei Kano

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    What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:19 am

    Abstract

    This experiment tested whether the conformism observed among panels of judges in aesthetic sports also occurs among judges in judo. Similar to aesthetic sports, judo judging relies upon a form of open feedback. However, in judo, this system is reactive (i.e. two judges have to publicly ‘correct’ the score given by the higher-status referee), whereas it is active in aesthetic sports (i.e. judges with equal status report their score simultaneously and can use the feedback about the scores of their colleagues for evaluating later performances). In order to test whether such reactive open-feedback system leads to conformism among judges in judo, we designed an experiment in which this feedback was manipulated. Participants were 20 certified Flemish judges, who had to score two sets of 11 ambiguous video sequences that are used during formation and training of judo judges: one set with feedback about the referee's score and one set without feedback. The results revealed that when participants knew the referee's score, their scores were significantly more in line with this score than when they did not know this score. More specifically, for both sets of sequences at least 10% less deviations from the referee were observed when participants were given feedback about the score of the referee. These results suggest that preventable conformism can occur in typical judo judging, that is with reactive open feedback.


    (Reference: Boen F, Ginis P, Smits T. Judges in judo conform to the referee because of the reactive feedback system. European Journal of Sport Science 13, 6: 599-604, 2013. DOI: 10.1080/17461391.2012.756070)

    Judges in judo conform to referee decisions


    Note: Our friend wdax has started another thread in the kata section on kata judging. Kata judging differs from the above, but has the same problems such as the judging of aesthetic sports (gymnastics & iceskating). I am not going to talk about this in this thread because from a scientific point of view it is simply a different animal.


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    Neil G

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Neil G on Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:11 am

    Why is it that the judo judging is reactive?  In kendo, we have three judges as well, and they all are able to call a point, not just shushin.  If one calls it, the other two must react in some way, either to indicate that they agree with the call, or they thought it was a point for the other guy, or that there was no point, or that they didn't see it. Usually on a good point, you see three flags raised simultaneously.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:37 am

    Neil G wrote:Why is it that the judo judging is reactive?  In kendo, we have three judges as well, and they all are able to call a point, not just shushin.  If one calls it, the other two must react in some way, either to indicate that they agree with the call, or they thought it was a point for the other guy, or that there was no point, or that they didn't see it.  Usually on a good point, you see three flags raised simultaneously.
    Could it be "different culture" ?

    I don't know the kenô judges culture. In jûdô certainly outside of Japan, a great deal of jûdôka are obsessed by dan-ranks and will sell their own mother for it if they could. Many will deny it, but in reality it is like that. The same exists among referees. It's all about ranking and being allowed to go up from regional to national. In a country such as the US they even have created sublevels such as N-3, N-2- N-1. And then later IJF-B- and IJF-A. Call it "referee dan ranks". The consequence is that referees will do anything for a higher classificaiton, and you don't get to IJF-B or IJF-A without poltiical support since the federation refereeing committee has to propose and send you. There is a big macho culture. The higher refs often like and expect that those with lower classification treat them as God and with the humility as if they were his personal slaves. It's a rotten culture. So when you act as referee you see who the referees are behind the table that will be judging the other referees. Among referees you then talk about what is important to satisfy Mr. so and so, and how this one is big on that and how the other one is know to this or that and want this, and for the rest you jump up and bow like a knife, wipe his butt if necessary, and worse, so that God forbids, nothing comes in between your next higher up refereeing rank all the way to the Walhalla of IJF-A. And the jûdôka themselves ? Who the fuck cares about the jûdôka ? The referee wants to get invitations hopefully for important international tournaments, a plane ticket paid for, and free lodging and more opportunity to be upgraded from regional or national brownnoser to international brownnoser, 4 or 5-start hotels guaranteed. And if you REALLY play it well, who knows, even some extracurricular activities attended by IJF hussies, he, he, he.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Neil G

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Neil G on Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:34 am

    Yeah, nothing like that, at least not in North America.  Once a year FIK holds a referee seminar in North America.  In years where there is a world championship (every 3 years), that seminar is the basis for recommendations for refs that go to worlds.

    One culture difference is that the FIK seminar starts with a good hard keiko to see who still has an active practice.  If you can't cut in in the practice, you aren't going to be reffing at worlds.
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    The_Harvest

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by The_Harvest on Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:53 am

    Well ,you guys are going to love this. The IJF has just created a "ranking list for IJF referees"

    http://intjudo.eu/News/cikk2872

    I don't know if such a public list exists in any other discipline. I wonder how this will impact the referees attitudes on the tatami.

    Off topic: The IJF has several new rules which I will post If I can find an English source.
    For those who can understand french here is the link

    http://www.lespritdujudo.com/actualites/de-nouvelles-regles-d-arbitrage-pour-la-fin-de-l-olympiade


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    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    Roman 3:23-26


    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:28 am

    The_Harvest wrote:Well ,you guys are going to love this. The IJF has just created a "ranking list for IJF referees"

    http://intjudo.eu/News/cikk2872

    I don't know if such a public list exists in any other discipline. I wonder how this will impact the referees attitudes on the tatami.

    Off topic: The IJF has several new rules which I will post If I can find an English source.
    For those who can understand french here is the link

    http://www.lespritdujudo.com/actualites/de-nouvelles-regles-d-arbitrage-pour-la-fin-de-l-olympiade
    Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this yet.

    You know what is funny ? The IJF is either delusional or drunk or both. Unlike what they are saying on there website this is not at all the first time they publish a referee ranking. This has in fact existed since at least 4 years. In fact, right here on my computer I am looking at the Sep 2009 IJF Referee World Ranking List.

    In my personal opinion, the idea of publishing such lists is a bad, bad thing, making judo into a floor show or cabaret. Everything is made into a competition, maybe they can go a step further and create specific Referee dan-ranks !  Why not !  Just imagine, a parallel system, with everyone competing to become the first "Shimpai jûdan" holder !!

    Jonesy has already published the new IJF amendments in English, or do you have something else ?


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Neil G

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Neil G on Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:35 am

    Found these annotated rules.
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    The_Harvest

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by The_Harvest on Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:46 am

    Neil G wrote:Found these annotated rules.
    Thank you.


    _________________
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    Roman 3:23-26


    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Ephesians 2:8-10

    Emanuele2

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Emanuele2 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:38 pm

    Why women matches have been downgraded to four minutes?
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    Stevens

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Stevens on Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:07 pm

    In jûdô certainly outside of Japan, a great deal of jûdôka are obsessed by dan-ranks and will sell their own mother for it if they could. Many will deny it, but in reality it is like that. The same exists among referees. It's all about ranking and being allowed to go up from regional to national. In a country such as the US they even have created sublevels such as N-3, N-2- N-1. And then later IJF-B- and IJF-A. Call it "referee dan ranks". The consequence is that referees will do anything for a higher classificaiton, and you don't get to IJF-B or IJF-A without poltiical support since the federation refereeing committee has to propose and send you. There is a big macho culture. The higher refs often like and expect that those with lower classification treat them as God and with the humility as if they were his personal slaves. It's a rotten culture. So when you act as referee you see who the referees are behind the table that will be judging the other referees. Among referees you then talk about what is important to satisfy Mr. so and so, and how this one is big on that  and how the other one is know to this or that and want this, and for the rest you jump up and bow like a knife, wipe his butt if necessary, and worse, so that God forbids, nothing comes in between your next higher up refereeing rank all the way to the Walhalla of IJF-A. And the jûdôka themselves ?  Who the fuck cares about the jûdôka ? The referee wants to get invitations hopefully for important international tournaments, a plane ticket paid for, and free lodging and more opportunity to be upgraded from regional or national brownnoser to international brownnoser, 4 or 5-start hotels guaranteed. And if you REALLY play it well, who knows, even some extracurricular activities attended by IJF hussies, he, he, he.[/quote]

    It's just the way how somebody looks at it. It's true that Western judoka are obsessed by ranks. We all know that judoka can earn money by teaching and not by being a referee or judge. We need referees for competitions and i'm happy to see lots of new (young and old) referees in Holland, but the most are gone after a short while. Even some fast going referees who get the highest national referee rank stay only a couple of years because the start a family. In my area there are a lot of low grades (1th kyu/1st dan) who have a middle referee rank and do their work with lots of fun as a hobby. My opinion is that they are the best! One of our leading referee in Holland told me that it cost him a lot of money/spare time to go to the Olympics (Bejing). He also told us that he had to fight for the international ranking. It's true that at the national level referees crawl for the leading man. You like that? Do it. If you don't? Laugh about them, but with a little bit respect, because we need them! It's the last way what i used to do. I did my work as referee as education/study and with pleasure, respect and open mind! Nobody knows me anymore, i know for myself i did a good job for judo. My friend was a very good competitor and fought and beat big boys, but never got a national medal. He's hard to find as judoka on www and he doesn't care! He had a wonderful time as competitor.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:25 pm

    Stevens wrote:In jûdô certainly outside of Japan, a great deal of jûdôka are obsessed by dan-ranks and will sell their own mother for it if they could. Many will deny it, but in reality it is like that. The same exists among referees. It's all about ranking and being allowed to go up from regional to national. In a country such as the US they even have created sublevels such as N-3, N-2- N-1. And then later IJF-B- and IJF-A. Call it "referee dan ranks". The consequence is that referees will do anything for a higher classificaiton, and you don't get to IJF-B or IJF-A without poltiical support since the federation refereeing committee has to propose and send you. There is a big macho culture. The higher refs often like and expect that those with lower classification treat them as God and with the humility as if they were his personal slaves. It's a rotten culture. So when you act as referee you see who the referees are behind the table that will be judging the other referees. Among referees you then talk about what is important to satisfy Mr. so and so, and how this one is big on that  and how the other one is know to this or that and want this, and for the rest you jump up and bow like a knife, wipe his butt if necessary, and worse, so that God forbids, nothing comes in between your next higher up refereeing rank all the way to the Walhalla of IJF-A. And the jûdôka themselves ?  Who the fuck cares about the jûdôka ? The referee wants to get invitations hopefully for important international tournaments, a plane ticket paid for, and free lodging and more opportunity to be upgraded from regional or national brownnoser to international brownnoser, 4 or 5-start hotels guaranteed. And if you REALLY play it well, who knows, even some extracurricular activities attended by IJF hussies, he, he, he.

    It's just the way how somebody looks at it. It's true that Western judoka are obsessed by ranks. We all know that judoka can earn money by teaching and not by being a referee or judge. We need referees for competitions and i'm happy to see lots of new (young and old) referees in Holland, but the most are gone after a short while. Even some fast going referees who get the highest national referee rank stay only a couple of years because the start a family. In my area there are a lot of low grades (1th kyu/1st dan) who have a middle referee rank and do their work with lots of fun as a hobby. My opinion is that they are the best! One of our leading referee in Holland told me that it cost him a lot of money/spare time to go to the Olympics (Bejing). He also told us that he had to fight for the international ranking. It's true that at the national level referees crawl for the leading man. You like that? Do it. If you don't? Laugh about them, but with a little bit respect, because we need them! It's the last way what i used to do. I did my work as referee as education/study  and with pleasure, respect and open mind! Nobody knows me anymore, i know for myself i did a good job for judo. My friend was a very good competitor and fought and beat big boys, but never got a national medal. He's hard to find as judoka on www and he doesn't care! He had a wonderful time as competitor.  
    [/quote]
    Very very true.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:36 pm

    Stevens wrote:
    It's just the way how somebody looks at it. It's true that Western judoka are obsessed by ranks. We all know that judoka can earn money by teaching and not by being a referee or judge. We need referees for competitions and i'm happy to see lots of new (young and old) referees in Holland, but the most are gone after a short while. Even some fast going referees who get the highest national referee rank stay only a couple of years because the start a family. In my area there are a lot of low grades (1th kyu/1st dan) who have a middle referee rank and do their work with lots of fun as a hobby. My opinion is that they are the best! One of our leading referee in Holland told me that it cost him a lot of money/spare time to go to the Olympics (Bejing). He also told us that he had to fight for the international ranking. It's true that at the national level referees crawl for the leading man. You like that? Do it. If you don't? Laugh about them, but with a little bit respect, because we need them! It's the last way what i used to do. I did my work as referee as education/study  and with pleasure, respect and open mind! Nobody knows me anymore, i know for myself i did a good job for judo. My friend was a very good competitor and fought and beat big boys, but never got a national medal. He's hard to find as judoka on www and he doesn't care! He had a wonderful time as competitor.  

    Financial arrangements for refs. are different depending on the country. In the US, for example, refs are not paid and have to pay themselves for plane tickes to bridge the large distances between their home town and the place were the competition is organized. In many countries in Europe though, refs are paid. You won't get rich from it and it often is a standard fee, something like 50 euros for a day. This is added to transport costs which are also refunded, and which are a lot lower due to much smaller distances.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    still learning

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    Re: What we have long suspected: Judges in judo conform to referee decisions

    Post by still learning on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:29 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:
    It's just the way how somebody looks at it. It's true that Western judoka are obsessed by ranks. We all know that judoka can earn money by teaching and not by being a referee or judge. We need referees for competitions and i'm happy to see lots of new (young and old) referees in Holland, but the most are gone after a short while. Even some fast going referees who get the highest national referee rank stay only a couple of years because the start a family. In my area there are a lot of low grades (1th kyu/1st dan) who have a middle referee rank and do their work with lots of fun as a hobby. My opinion is that they are the best! One of our leading referee in Holland told me that it cost him a lot of money/spare time to go to the Olympics (Bejing). He also told us that he had to fight for the international ranking. It's true that at the national level referees crawl for the leading man. You like that? Do it. If you don't? Laugh about them, but with a little bit respect, because we need them! It's the last way what i used to do. I did my work as referee as education/study  and with pleasure, respect and open mind! Nobody knows me anymore, i know for myself i did a good job for judo. My friend was a very good competitor and fought and beat big boys, but never got a national medal. He's hard to find as judoka on www and he doesn't care! He had a wonderful time as competitor.  

    Financial arrangements for refs. are different depending on the country. In the US, for example, refs are not paid and have to pay themselves for plane tickes to bridge the large distances between their home town and the place were the competition is organized. In many countries in Europe though, refs are paid. You won't get rich from it and it often is a standard fee, something like 50 euros for a day. This is added to transport costs which are also refunded, and which are a lot lower due to much smaller distances.

    A friend of mine who is progressing through the referring ranks in the UK advised that he is paid expenses for travel and food only.

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