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    "The Ura position is now valid"

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    Allen

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    "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by Allen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:34 am

    From the document of rules under consideration, there was that nugget about the Ura-gatame now being considered a pin. I believe this is when you are holding your opponent down by lying on them with your back down and your chest up, perhaps grabbing one arm and one leg with your arms.

    I'm not sure how I feel about this. It is a 'weak' pinning position in my limited experience, but you can still hold folks down with it. I'm not personally a fan, but I'm still a newbie so I'm interested to hear other thoughts.
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:43 am

    Ura Gatame.... Yoko Shio Gatame in "Reverse".............
    not allowed for many years.....why bring it back now ??




    As I have said before :

    When a body or Organisation is going down hill, it changes the rules !!

    hedgehogey

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by hedgehogey on Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:07 am

    What's ura g...

    [interlude for google image search]

    Oh great, you can get osae komi for putting yourself in a crucifix now.

    (It also led me to this: http://dojojujitsu.voila.net/Html/techniques/immobilisations/uragatame.jpg
    Such caveman. Much bad grapple. Very not know what guard is.)

    r12477

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by r12477 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:30 am

    Allen wrote:From the document of rules under consideration, there was that nugget about the Ura-gatame now being considered a pin.  I believe this is when you are holding your opponent down by lying on them with your back down and your chest up, perhaps grabbing one arm and one leg with your arms.

    I'm not sure how I feel about this.  It is a 'weak' pinning position in my limited experience, but you can still hold folks down with it.  I'm not personally a fan, but I'm still a newbie so I'm interested to hear other thoughts.
    While a relative new-comer myself, I like this hold.  

    Actually, in truth, I was sort of surprised on the reading of the new amendments that this hold was indeed considered invalid.  This is because I have had two wins with this hold this year, in one instance where the hold was very much like this where I held a guy (much bigger [at least 40 kg] than me) down in ura-gatame after osoto-makikomi.

    gester

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by gester on Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:54 pm

    Hi,

    Where can this information be found?

    Gester
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:02 pm

    r12477 wrote:
    Allen wrote:From the document of rules under consideration, there was that nugget about the Ura-gatame now being considered a pin.  I believe this is when you are holding your opponent down by lying on them with your back down and your chest up, perhaps grabbing one arm and one leg with your arms.

    I'm not sure how I feel about this.  It is a 'weak' pinning position in my limited experience, but you can still hold folks down with it.  I'm not personally a fan, but I'm still a newbie so I'm interested to hear other thoughts.
    While a relative new-comer myself, I like this hold.  

    Actually, in truth, I was sort of surprised on the reading of the new amendments that this hold was indeed considered invalid.  This is because I have had two wins with this hold this year, in one instance where the hold was very much like this where I held a guy (much bigger [at least 40 kg] than me) down in ura-gatame after osoto-makikomi.
    It wasn't invalid, at least not consistently. Canadian Olympic bronze medalist 2012 Antoine Valois-Fortier has it as one of his specialties, and has won many matches with it previously. I guess it probably is more a matter of sometimes running into refs who were not sure and who goofed. Now it's literally in the rules, so ...

    Of course new problems will emerge, just wait and see, since there exist ura-gatame versions where tori is actually lying UNDER uke an still holding him in control. If you wanna see the refs go tilt, you should try that out once.


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    Emanuele2

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by Emanuele2 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:41 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Of course new problems will emerge, just wait and see, since there exist ura-gatame versions where tori is actually lying UNDER uke an still holding him in control. If you wanna see the refs go tilt, you should try that out once.
    The one seen at 1:40?

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    The_Harvest

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by The_Harvest on Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:21 pm

    Hirotaka Kato is the ura-gatame specialist. I have seen him use this technique almost everytime he enters ne-waza.



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    langoustine

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by langoustine on Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:29 pm

    For some reason, I always thought that pins were only considered to start when tori's chest points to the ground, after which the timer keeps going even if tori's chest momentarily points away from the ground. I quickly checked the rules and that criterion doesn't seem to be there. Am I crazy?

    I ask because the last time I did ura gatame, I was eleven years old. It's silly to consider it a pin because it's so weak.
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:55 pm

    As shown in the above videos, Tori has his knees down or at least appears to be trying to ground his knees in some parts.............

    it was explained to me by an International "A" grade Referee :

    "As long as Tori is in a Kesa or Osae position the hold is valid"

    So try to ground the knees or turn the chest.

    Perhaps some current Referees can expand upon this, please.


    medo

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by medo on Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:23 pm

    The weak version tends to be from a kesa arm around the neck rolling on the back to grab the nearest leg. Kids tend to find this position in newaza randori without being taught.
     
    The arm tightly held around the waist version in the vids above is actually very strong held a few larger dan grades with it myself just need to keep tight at waist level by pushing with legs and be ready to post your head and arch back if he's gained some space between you and him.

    As the hold had became invalid in comps it was normally modified by twisting further around grabbing the belt instead of the leg to become a ushiro kesa  henka.

    Just a point I wonder if Jujigatame will ever become a hold ever tried getting up when them legs are across your head and chest? (yes I know it can be modified to a valid hold) but if the point is to hold some ones back to the floor for 20 odd seconds Juji does that!!
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    Ryvai

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by Ryvai on Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:32 am

    medo wrote:Just a point I wonder if Jujigatame will ever become a hold..
    Juji-gatame means just that, a hold in the cross position. No breaking involved. Udehishigi-juji-gatame on the other hand..

    It's just not classified as valid osaekomi Smile

    medo

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by medo on Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:25 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    medo wrote:Just a point I wonder if Jujigatame will ever become a hold..
    Juji-gatame means just that, a hold in the cross position. No breaking involved. Udehishigi-juji-gatame on the other hand..

    It's just not classified as valid osaekomi Smile
    I think most would know that....... But again if the purpose of a hold down is to keep uke on his back then Juji gatame does just that. If rules can be changed then why not have Juji gatame as a valid hold down?

    cokiee

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by cokiee on Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:07 am

    When I obtained my local referee license a few years ago, I was taught that the hold was valid as long as tori didn't place his or her legs in such a way that the knees were pointed towards the ceiling, with both heels down. Otherwise if in kesa position it's osaekomi. However that video posted above seemed to prove what I was taught wrong.

    From reading the rule updates it sounds like the previously disallowed position is now explicitly allowed.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:10 am

    Are we talking about Kawaishi's ura-gatame where control effected from between uke's legs as per here:

    http://www.judotechnik.eu/Katamewaza/osae_technik.php?id=kao11&lang=en&bildart=Illu

    Or, the completely different Mifune version where tori controls uke from below as per here?



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    Ryvai

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    Re: "The Ura position is now valid"

    Post by Ryvai on Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:48 am

    Jonesy wrote:Are we talking about Kawaishi's ura-gatame where control effected from between uke's legs as per here:

    http://www.judotechnik.eu/Katamewaza/osae_technik.php?id=kao11&lang=en&bildart=Illu

    Or, the completely different Mifune version where tori controls uke from below as per here?


    During a referee-seminar this year I asked, and demonstrated, in front of one head referee in the EJU commision the "Mifune" ura-gatame shown in that particular video clip and he deemed it valid osaekomi Smile

    One other 4th dan attending the seminar interrupted mid-way claiming that was not ura-gatame (which it clearly was), I did not respond to the claim, there was too many in attendance, so I didn't want to disrespect him in front of the crowd. But that got me thinking, since the IJF has not made any specific references to "what kind" of ura-gatame they are referring to, what on earth is it that they claim to be ura-gatame or within the definition? Anyways, the Mifune application is deemed valid osaekomi, so you can use that one, even if you are at the bottom almost face down Smile

    The IJF's definition of ura-gatame is more along the lines of the first variation in this video (ignore the technical discussion of rules, it's outdated);



    Previously the placement of your feet had to be in a kesa-position, turning either against his feet or his head. Laying on top of him was not considered osaekomi, but they are now. Your body can now be perpendicular to uke. That's the intention of the rule at least Smile

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