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Terminal rank in jūdō 5 4.7 12

    Terminal rank in jūdō

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    Hanon

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:38 pm

    Kenan79 wrote:Well, after almost 3 years of every-day practice, some 8 tournaments (11, including club championships) I'm quite happy with my orange belt. I wouldn't have liked it any other way..ie,. to get a higher rank just on the basis of "merit" or "he's sucha nice guy, trying hard..".

    If it's not deserved, whatever belt, than you should not wear it. There's just too much politics in judo these days..and I agree, those high dan ranks are being handed out way too often..

    There are several hypothesis I can read into your mail.

    One, you are being kept at a low rank to win championships, its called sand bagging and is dishonourable. Two, maybe you simply don't have the aptitude for judo and orange is your level?

    I would have to ask you though from what knowledge base can you hold to make an assessment of senior ranks such as those who wear kohaku obi?
    If you truly posses that level than why aren't you a high rank dan grade yourself?

    Mike


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    Kenan79

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Kenan79 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:51 pm

    Hanon wrote:

    One, you are being kept at a low rank to win championships, its called sand bagging and is dishonourable. Two, maybe you simply don't have the aptitude for judo and orange is your level?

    I think I do have aptitude for judo (if by aptitude you're refering to some basic talent neccessary to practice it and develop?), I love it but I also consider myself a "worker" and slow learner. I like to enjoy the techniques I do, I do them all the time in randori eventhough people tell me to try different things (which does make sense) but I just don't obsess about being thrown or loosing..I enjoy judo every day and when we have "days off" I'm feeling kinda bummed..apart from sunday (when I rest) every other day I feel very enthusiastic about it.

    As for my rank and level..well, the best judge of that would be my own sensei..so my opinion is just - my opinion. By saying I'm an orange belt, I'm not implying anything but saying, what matters is doing judo and studying it and not chasing belts just to make yourself look good. As I said, I'd rather be a good orange belt then a mediocre green belt or even worse blue belt. I won against a black belt in a competition but also lost to a white belt who could barely do a standup so..it doesn't really matter. And btw, there's no sandbagging, croatian system is among other things, time-based so you get every belt after 1 year of active practice and I'm yet to completely reach the 3 year mark (for a green belt). I'm where I'm supposed to be. Wink

    I would have to ask you though from what knowledge base can you hold to make an assessment of senior ranks such as those who wear kohaku obi?
    If you truly posses that level than why aren't you a high rank dan grade yourself?

    Mike

    I certainly have very little, beginner level knowledge base (basically clueless) but from what I heard, especially from my brother who's is in US and also does judo, (a black belt) he fought against some red-whites who apparently, got those ranks over some course or something in about a year or so (I know, it sounds crazy!) and he beat them in randoris with such an ease, he honestly thought they were going easy with him and letting him throw them (he is a competitor 1st Dan).

    Are you telling me, or implying that I have to be some sort of expert to be allowed to say or think there's politics involved in grading high rank belts?

    Quicksilver

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Quicksilver on Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:31 am

    Dammit, losing posts is a pain.

    A few things with relation to the validity of opinion as dependent on the rank of the opinioner:

    - It doesn't seem like Kenan79 was proposing a technical assesment of high dan grades, merely expressing an ideology relating to grading
    - the validity of which is (arguably) hardly dependent on the relative degree of the rank
    - and though there are situations where deferring to rank-based authority is appropriate, for a discussion of this nature (esp. conceptual, as well as the generality of the subject as above) in a forum of this kind I see no good reason why anyone willing and able to be reasonable should not have the right to put forward an opinion and discuss it on its own merits or otherwise.

    Please excuse if this post reads as somewhat brusque, it is not intended that way, merely written as it is because writing from my phone and having lost this posts previous incarnation, I am trying to be concise.  Smile 

    Warm regards


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    medo

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by medo on Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:45 am

    [quote="Kenan79"]
    Hanon wrote:

    And btw, there's no sandbagging, croatian system is among other things, time-based so you get every belt after 1 year of active practice and I'm yet to completely reach the 3 year mark (for a green belt). I'm where I'm supposed to be. Wink


    So a years practice equals 1 belt grade? even if you train 5days a week! I can understand that transition from brown to black could take time as that is the big step but seriously 3yrs everyday training and only a low kyu grade that I don't understand.

    jkw

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by jkw on Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:44 am

    Hanon wrote:I would have to ask you though from what knowledge base can you hold to make an assessment of senior ranks such as those who wear kohaku obi?

    I realize this is an exception and almost certainly not the norm, but sadly I have been on the tatami with one holder of a kohaku obi whose general deportment probably did allow those with almost almost no judo knowledge to make a reasonable assessment of his knowledge base. It was a small, independent splinter federation - still, quite sad.

    JudoStu

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by JudoStu on Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:02 pm

    medo wrote:
    Kenan79 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:

    And btw, there's no sandbagging, croatian system is among other things, time-based so you get every belt after 1 year of active practice and I'm yet to completely reach the 3 year mark (for a green belt). I'm where I'm supposed to be. Wink


    So a years practice equals 1 belt grade? even if you train 5days a week! I can understand that transition from brown to black could take time as that is the big step but seriously 3yrs everyday training and only a low kyu grade that I don't understand.    

    And he beat a black belt in competition Shocked 
    I'm currently in the process of grading for my brown belt (1st kyu) and i've only thrown a black belt in randori once or twice. In Shiai i'd be cannon fodder to black belts


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    Kenan79

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Kenan79 on Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:09 pm

    medo wrote:
    So a years practice equals 1 belt grade? even if you train 5days a week! I can understand that transition from brown to black could take time as that is the big step but seriously 3yrs everyday training and only a low kyu grade that I don't understand.    

    I believe the system as such didn't neccessarily account for people who practice every day, it's more like a general guideline refering to the majority which is not as hard driven and which practice like, 2 or 3 times a week (at best) wheter those people are competing or not. One of my coleagues who's American, (green belt) told me he earned his belt based on a merit / effort and not (like here in Croatia) based on a demonstration of sets of techniques. Apart from a time period, one needs to be active AND be able to display the neccessary techniques (the display doesn't have to be 'perfect' rather solid, at least) and also, for higher kyu belts, be active competitor.

    I started judo when I was 32 (now I'm 34) so, if I continue practicing, I should reach black belt by the time I'm 38 (at earliest).

    BTW, here's the croatian ranking system video demonstration for each kyu belt:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6vQMAZOgZK6_fuW4zkxdPVeX8beCxDO3

    7. kyu - Yellow belt
    5. kyu - Orange belt
    3.kyu - Green Belt
    2. kyu - Blue Belt
    1. kyu - Brown Belt

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:46 pm

    Jonesy wrote:How many 9 dan holders are there in Japan?

    Back to this question. I just learnt that earlier this year, in fact already in January 2013, Katô Hideo, Kôdôkan 9th dan, died at the age of 75. He was from Nara Prefecture, and only promoted to this rank in April 2012. This means he was able to enjoy this high rank for bary 7 months ! Hopefully this illustrates the difficulty of responding to your question as on the average the rank of Kôdôkan 9th dan seems to have a very sharp ... "date of expiry".


    To further illustrate the point I earlier raised in this thread, two more Kôdôkan 9th dan-holders have passed away:

    - Morita Sôji 田森荘二 who taught at Kôbe University of Commerce

    http://www.geocities.jp/hyokenjudo/syasin20051104.html


    - Yamakata Toshimi 山肩敏美, a 1946 graduate of Meiji Univ. from Hiroshima already died in Oct 2013.

    http://ameblo.jp/kk-sports/entry-11632924601.html

    This brings the total of Kôdôkan 9th dan-holders who died in 2013 to five.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    still learning

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by still learning on Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:12 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:How many 9 dan holders are there in Japan?

    rank of Kôdôkan 9th dan seems to have a very sharp ... "date of expiry".

    Hope you don't get yours too soon then.

    still learning

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by still learning on Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:19 pm

    [quote="Kenan79"]
    medo wrote:

    BTW, here's the croatian ranking system video demonstration for each kyu belt:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6vQMAZOgZK6_fuW4zkxdPVeX8beCxDO3


    Every action either enhances or diminishes reputation, the apparent senior grade who is demonstrating this is doing the latter. I sincerely hope you have better instruction and guidance than this, the yoko ukemi alone...

    Dave R.

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Dave R. on Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:28 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    I would have to ask you though from what knowledge base can you hold to make an assessment of senior ranks such as those who wear kohaku obi?
    If you truly posses that level than why aren't you a high rank dan grade yourself?

    Mike


    When I read Kenan79’s post I initially thought the same thing but I appreciate his perspective. Your post seems to indicate that you feel only a high rank dan grade holder can make such assessments. Is that the case? I’m just a shodan and I’ve been involved in Judo for eight years. I think after spending as much time in Judo as I have (though nowhere near as long as you) one can have an understanding on some level as to who is or is not deserving. To be perfectly honest after all these years of reading your posts and Cichorei Kano’s posts I have a much better understanding of the subject (at a basic level) than I would have if I never joined a Judo forum. With that said I agree with Kenan79 that rokudan and higher are being awarded with far more frequency than they probably should. In the eight years I’ve been doing Judo I’ve come across (in person) a few high ranking Judoka (rokudan and higher) and I can only think of two who I feel is worthy enough to wear the kohaku obi. I hate to say it but I know someone who wears a kohaku obi who doesn’t deserve it and that promotion cheapens the significance of the rank. I knew he didn’t deserve it within a year I had been doing Judo.

    I really like the article linked. Yodan or Godan is a perfectly acceptable terminal rank. It’s a significant rank in my mind. It was my goal to be a Yodan one day but given the way Judo is taught in the United States I’ll never be deserving of the rank. I understand this and as such I’m not going to be chasing after it.

    Also, I’m not suggesting someone like myself should ever make the case for someone wearing the kohaku obi in any official capacity. I’m just saying that even us low ranking schleps know who is or isn’t deserving at an elementary level.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:42 pm

    still learning wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:How many 9 dan holders are there in Japan?

    rank of Kôdôkan 9th dan seems to have a very sharp ... "date of  expiry".

    Hope you don't get yours too soon then.

    With my popularity and many friends out there ? Ha, ha, ha, not in a million years. My terminal rank is set at 6th kyû !


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Hanon

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:37 pm

    jkw wrote:
    Hanon wrote:I would have to ask you though from what knowledge base can you hold to make an assessment of senior ranks such as those who wear kohaku obi?

    I realize this is an exception and almost certainly not the norm, but sadly I have been on the tatami with one holder of a kohaku obi whose general deportment probably did allow those with almost almost no judo knowledge to make a reasonable assessment of his knowledge base. It was a small, independent splinter federation - still, quite sad.

    Indeed. I also know a small number of high ranks, some very senior who are questionable. Point is they are the exception to the rule and I have 52 years of experienced well founded and rounded judo knowledge under my obi to asses. I find it absurd that an orange belt with two years judo should pass a comment about a senior rank. I guess this is a cultural concept.
    I just fail to see with what knowledge a low kyu rank can posses to make such an evaluation I mean he doesn't even know the difference between shiai and randori!

    In relation to shiai and randori. As a young buck of say san dan I have made shiai with kohaku ranks and was able to throw them (I didn't I just lifted them, due to their age) Point is, in general, though not always, by the time most of us mortals reach 6th dan we are rather old for shiai with young blooded dan ranks. If I attempted at my age to shiai with my dan grades I know the outcome. If they could not throw me I would question THEIR rank and NOT mine.

    Most senior ranks are well past their better days of shiai. At my age I would be horrified to find I could still play with lower dan ranks?

    Please also note there is a great difference in randori and shiai. In randori I used to let myself get thrown all over the mat by every one I fought. There is no winner in randori its practice. If at the end of the session sensei would call "Shiai". That became a very different story.

    In general though my peers can and do debate higher ranks, in general there are not that many who are totally useless unless they belong to an association that has poor quality control and they are also the exceptions even though in some countries, like the UK for example, where there are numerous independent associations. Some of those independents have very good quality though not all.

    If we are going to hold prowess in randori and shiai as the marking stick how would our present highly respected and worthy 10th dans hold up, jeez these master are all in there mid 80's!

    If you want to asses a dan grade of seniority take a look at his pupils and how they perform.

    Please don't blacken all kohaku ranks because there are some of questionable value. Most I know have worked incredibly hard to achieve such a rank.

    It would be wiser to be graded oneself by a YDSK than a MDSK.

    Mike



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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Hanon

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:43 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    still learning wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:How many 9 dan holders are there in Japan?

    rank of Kôdôkan 9th dan seems to have a very sharp ... "date of  expiry".

    Hope you don't get yours too soon then.

    With my popularity and many friends out there ?  Ha, ha, ha, not in a million years. My terminal rank is set at 6th kyû !

    And just when where you promoted? Shocked  Last I saw you where same as me, 7th kyu!  Neutral  Does this mean I have to start to call you sensei?

    Mike affraid 


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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Kenan79

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Kenan79 on Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:55 pm

    Hanon wrote:I find it absurd that an orange belt with two years judo should pass a comment about a senior rank. I guess this is a cultural concept.
    I just fail to see with what knowledge a low kyu rank can posses to make such an evaluation I mean he doesn't even know the difference between shiai and randori!

    Mr. Hanon,

    I am also participating in this thread so posting about me in a third person and reducing me to a mere "orange belt/low kyu rank" is quite disrespectful as is coming to unfounded conclusions and accusations.

    But maybe I shouldn't have engaged in a discussion with you in the first place seeing your way of thinking pretty much boils down to "If you're a low ranking judoka, you don't have a right to an opinion.".

    I don't think my reply on higher ranks grading had anything to do with a "cultural concept" or questioning your undoubtful expertise and years of experience, but rather with expressing my own personal opinion on an open internet message board meant for judokas from all around the world, who love the sport and want to share their thoughts on it, no matter what their rank, standing etc.

    Unless I offended you in any way, I expect some basic respect in return. If you are unable to provide that, irregardless of your rank and age, I'm afraid any further discussion would be just a waste of time and effort.

    For both of us.

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