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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Guest on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:28 am

    Hanon wrote:
    I would have to ask you though from what knowledge base can you hold to make an assessment of senior ranks such as those who wear kohaku obi?
    If you truly posses that level than why aren't you a high rank dan grade yourself?

    Mike


    When I read Kenan79’s post I initially thought the same thing but I appreciate his perspective. Your post seems to indicate that you feel only a high rank dan grade holder can make such assessments. Is that the case? I’m just a shodan and I’ve been involved in Judo for eight years. I think after spending as much time in Judo as I have (though nowhere near as long as you) one can have an understanding on some level as to who is or is not deserving. To be perfectly honest after all these years of reading your posts and Cichorei Kano’s posts I have a much better understanding of the subject (at a basic level) than I would have if I never joined a Judo forum. With that said I agree with Kenan79 that rokudan and higher are being awarded with far more frequency than they probably should. In the eight years I’ve been doing Judo I’ve come across (in person) a few high ranking Judoka (rokudan and higher) and I can only think of two who I feel is worthy enough to wear the kohaku obi. I hate to say it but I know someone who wears a kohaku obi who doesn’t deserve it and that promotion cheapens the significance of the rank. I knew he didn’t deserve it within a year I had been doing Judo.

    I really like the article linked. Yodan or Godan is a perfectly acceptable terminal rank. It’s a significant rank in my mind. It was my goal to be a Yodan one day but given the way Judo is taught in the United States I’ll never be deserving of the rank. I understand this and as such I’m not going to be chasing after it.

    Also, I’m not suggesting someone like myself should ever make the case for someone wearing the kohaku obi in any official capacity. I’m just saying that even us low ranking schleps know who is or isn’t deserving at an elementary level.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:42 am

    still learning wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:How many 9 dan holders are there in Japan?

    rank of Kôdôkan 9th dan seems to have a very sharp ... "date of  expiry".

    Hope you don't get yours too soon then.

    With my popularity and many friends out there ? Ha, ha, ha, not in a million years. My terminal rank is set at 6th kyû !


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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:37 am

    jkw wrote:
    Hanon wrote:I would have to ask you though from what knowledge base can you hold to make an assessment of senior ranks such as those who wear kohaku obi?

    I realize this is an exception and almost certainly not the norm, but sadly I have been on the tatami with one holder of a kohaku obi whose general deportment probably did allow those with almost almost no judo knowledge to make a reasonable assessment of his knowledge base. It was a small, independent splinter federation - still, quite sad.

    Indeed. I also know a small number of high ranks, some very senior who are questionable. Point is they are the exception to the rule and I have 52 years of experienced well founded and rounded judo knowledge under my obi to asses. I find it absurd that an orange belt with two years judo should pass a comment about a senior rank. I guess this is a cultural concept.
    I just fail to see with what knowledge a low kyu rank can posses to make such an evaluation I mean he doesn't even know the difference between shiai and randori!

    In relation to shiai and randori. As a young buck of say san dan I have made shiai with kohaku ranks and was able to throw them (I didn't I just lifted them, due to their age) Point is, in general, though not always, by the time most of us mortals reach 6th dan we are rather old for shiai with young blooded dan ranks. If I attempted at my age to shiai with my dan grades I know the outcome. If they could not throw me I would question THEIR rank and NOT mine.

    Most senior ranks are well past their better days of shiai. At my age I would be horrified to find I could still play with lower dan ranks?

    Please also note there is a great difference in randori and shiai. In randori I used to let myself get thrown all over the mat by every one I fought. There is no winner in randori its practice. If at the end of the session sensei would call "Shiai". That became a very different story.

    In general though my peers can and do debate higher ranks, in general there are not that many who are totally useless unless they belong to an association that has poor quality control and they are also the exceptions even though in some countries, like the UK for example, where there are numerous independent associations. Some of those independents have very good quality though not all.

    If we are going to hold prowess in randori and shiai as the marking stick how would our present highly respected and worthy 10th dans hold up, jeez these master are all in there mid 80's!

    If you want to asses a dan grade of seniority take a look at his pupils and how they perform.

    Please don't blacken all kohaku ranks because there are some of questionable value. Most I know have worked incredibly hard to achieve such a rank.

    It would be wiser to be graded oneself by a YDSK than a MDSK.

    Mike



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    Hanon

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:43 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    still learning wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:How many 9 dan holders are there in Japan?

    rank of Kôdôkan 9th dan seems to have a very sharp ... "date of  expiry".

    Hope you don't get yours too soon then.

    With my popularity and many friends out there ?  Ha, ha, ha, not in a million years. My terminal rank is set at 6th kyû !

    And just when where you promoted? Shocked  Last I saw you where same as me, 7th kyu!  Neutral  Does this mean I have to start to call you sensei?

    Mike affraid 


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    Kenan79

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Kenan79 on Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:55 am

    Hanon wrote:I find it absurd that an orange belt with two years judo should pass a comment about a senior rank. I guess this is a cultural concept.
    I just fail to see with what knowledge a low kyu rank can posses to make such an evaluation I mean he doesn't even know the difference between shiai and randori!

    Mr. Hanon,

    I am also participating in this thread so posting about me in a third person and reducing me to a mere "orange belt/low kyu rank" is quite disrespectful as is coming to unfounded conclusions and accusations.

    But maybe I shouldn't have engaged in a discussion with you in the first place seeing your way of thinking pretty much boils down to "If you're a low ranking judoka, you don't have a right to an opinion.".

    I don't think my reply on higher ranks grading had anything to do with a "cultural concept" or questioning your undoubtful expertise and years of experience, but rather with expressing my own personal opinion on an open internet message board meant for judokas from all around the world, who love the sport and want to share their thoughts on it, no matter what their rank, standing etc.

    Unless I offended you in any way, I expect some basic respect in return. If you are unable to provide that, irregardless of your rank and age, I'm afraid any further discussion would be just a waste of time and effort.

    For both of us.

    Hanon

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:14 am

    Kenan79 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:I find it absurd that an orange belt with two years judo should pass a comment about a senior rank. I guess this is a cultural concept.
    I just fail to see with what knowledge a low kyu rank can posses to make such an evaluation I mean he doesn't even know the difference between shiai and randori!

    Mr. Hanon,

    I am also participating in this thread so posting about me in a third person and reducing me to a mere "orange belt/low kyu rank" is quite disrespectful as is coming to unfounded conclusions and accusations.

    But maybe I shouldn't have engaged in a discussion with you in the first place seeing your way of thinking pretty much boils down to "If you're a low ranking judoka, you don't have a right to an opinion.".

    I don't think my reply on higher ranks grading had anything to do with a "cultural concept" or questioning your undoubtful expertise and years of experience, but rather with expressing my own personal opinion on an open internet message board meant for judokas from all around the world, who love the sport and want to share their thoughts on it, no matter what their rank, standing etc.

    Unless I offended you in any way, I expect some basic respect in return. If you are unable to provide that, irregardless of your rank and age, I'm afraid any further discussion would be just a waste of time and effort.

    For both of us.

    Stop blowing smoke and answer the point. What knowledge base do you posses to even pass an opinion, as an orange belt, to judge kohaku ranks? Regardless of this being a forum I find your attitude appalling, offensive and disingenuous.

    Mike


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:37 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    With my popularity and many friends out there ?  Ha, ha, ha, not in a million years. My terminal rank is set at 6th kyû !

    And just when where you promoted? Shocked  Last I saw you where same as me, 7th kyu!  Neutral  Does this mean I have to start to call you sensei?

    Mike affraid 

    No, no, no, I haven't been promoted yet. 6th Kyû my FUTURE terminal rank after I can accumulate enough money to BUY my next rank ! Very Happy 


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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:59 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    With my popularity and many friends out there ?  Ha, ha, ha, not in a million years. My terminal rank is set at 6th kyû !

    And just when where you promoted? Shocked  Last I saw you where same as me, 7th kyu!  Neutral  Does this mean I have to start to call you sensei?

    Mike affraid 

    No, no, no, I haven't been promoted yet. 6th Kyû my FUTURE terminal rank after I can accumulate enough money to BUY my next rank ! Very Happy 

    So THATS why you are selling raffle tickets! It all becomes so clear now.  Twisted Evil 


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    samsmith2424

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by samsmith2424 on Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:08 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Kenan79 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:I find it absurd that an orange belt with two years judo should pass a comment about a senior rank. I guess this is a cultural concept.
    I just fail to see with what knowledge a low kyu rank can posses to make such an evaluation I mean he doesn't even know the difference between shiai and randori!

    Mr. Hanon,

    I am also participating in this thread so posting about me in a third person and reducing me to a mere "orange belt/low kyu rank" is quite disrespectful as is coming to unfounded conclusions and accusations.

    But maybe I shouldn't have engaged in a discussion with you in the first place seeing your way of thinking pretty much boils down to "If you're a low ranking judoka, you don't have a right to an opinion.".

    I don't think my reply on higher ranks grading had anything to do with a "cultural concept" or questioning your undoubtful expertise and years of experience, but rather with expressing my own personal opinion on an open internet message board meant for judokas from all around the world, who love the sport and want to share their thoughts on it, no matter what their rank, standing etc.

    Unless I offended you in any way, I expect some basic respect in return. If you are unable to provide that, irregardless of your rank and age, I'm afraid any further discussion would be just a waste of time and effort.

    For both of us.

    Stop blowing smoke and answer the point. What knowledge base do you posses to even pass an opinion, as an orange belt, to judge kohaku ranks? Regardless of this being a forum I find your attitude appalling, offensive and disingenuous.

    Mike

    I don't understand why he can't express an opinion. This is a public forum.

    It is also possible for observers to see things in judo that they don't approve off, even if they never done judo.

    I was also trying to find the post where you were  disrespectful of Roy Inmann. i have no idea if he is really worth a 9th dan or what ever he is. but I do know that some of his students won olympic medals and world championships and a few of them are 6th Dan or higher.

    I can't recall wether you are 6th Dan or 7th dan but how many world champions and olympic medalists have you trained so we can assesss better your qualifications to comment on Roy Inmann?
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    Kenan79

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Kenan79 on Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:14 am

    Hanon wrote:

    Stop blowing smoke and answer the point. What knowledge base do you posses to even pass an opinion, as an orange belt, to judge kohaku ranks? Regardless of this being a forum I find your attitude appalling, offensive and disingenuous.

    Mike

    Still disrespectful?

    We are done.




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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:33 am

    Hi. Anyone else here realize it's Christmas eve tonight ?


    Please, all ... try to avoid talking about or identifying individual private people unless they are public persons (famous politicians, etc.). It's playing the edge of forum policies and often turns ugly.

    May I appeal to everybody involved to avoid the ad hominem and perhaps return to the original poster's question and focus on offering solutions to his predicament ?


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by jkw on Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:37 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Hi. Anyone else here realize it's Christmas eve tonight ?

    For a moment this thread was like being on old judoforum.

    Merry Christmas to you and everyone else who cares enough about judo to take part of this forum!

    Hanon

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:37 pm

    [quote="samsmith2424"]
    Hanon wrote:
    Kenan79 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:I find it absurd that an orange belt with two years judo should pass a comment about a senior rank. I guess this is a cultural concept.
    I just fail to see with what knowledge a low kyu rank can posses to make such an evaluation I mean he doesn't even know the difference between shiai and randori!

    Mr. Hanon,

    I am also participating in this thread so posting about me in a third person and reducing me to a mere "orange belt/low kyu rank" is quite disrespectful as is coming to unfounded conclusions and accusations.

    But maybe I shouldn't have engaged in a discussion with you in the first place seeing your way of thinking pretty much boils down to "If you're a low ranking judoka, you don't have a right to an opinion.".

    I don't think my reply on higher ranks grading had anything to do with a "cultural concept" or questioning your undoubtful expertise and years of experience, but rather with expressing my own personal opinion on an open internet message board meant for judokas from all around the world, who love the sport and want to share their thoughts on it, no matter what their rank, standing etc.

    Unless I offended you in any way, I expect some basic respect in return. If you are unable to provide that, irregardless of your rank and age, I'm afraid any further discussion would be just a waste of time and effort.

    For both of us.

    Stop blowing smoke and answer the point. What knowledge base do you posses to even pass an opinion, as an orange belt, to judge kohaku ranks? Regardless of this being a forum I find your attitude appalling, offensive and disingenuous.

    Mike

    I don't understand why he can't express an opinion. This is a public forum.

    quote]

    Of course opinions are posted here. Is it not also fair to request a civil explanation as to how an orange belt asses kohaku ranks? The system works in both directions. Opinion, challenges then debate. How else do we learn? Should we just blindly accept a persons opinion?

    We have seen it written on the JF where a poster has written o-goshi is a te waza? That thread also went South as rather than debate the subject we just went down the same old road of "Its a forum and we all have opinions". Was it wrong to request that poster explain just HOW he arrived at his opinion?

    Opinions should be posted by all of us but when we write opinions they are open to challenge? I still wait the answer to my simple question, on what grounds can an orange belt asses kohaku ranks? is it okay for me to ask that question? Am I also not entitled to MY opinion?

    No confrontation from here, seriously. I just think such an opinion is best kept to oneself or left to peer groups for challenge and debate?

    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:42 pm

    Kenan79 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:

    Stop blowing smoke and answer the point. What knowledge base do you posses to even pass an opinion, as an orange belt, to judge kohaku ranks? Regardless of this being a forum I find your attitude appalling, offensive and disingenuous.

    Mike

    Still disrespectful?

    We are done.





    You have the audacity to question a kohaku ranks credibility and call ME disrespectful?

    Again I challenge you to support your opinion.


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    BillC

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by BillC on Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:26 pm

    At the risk of a flame war ...

    ... just a reminder that this is internet-land.  Anyone might be anything here regardless of who they may be in the real world.  It is quite wise to question EVERYTHING one reads on this forum despite the fact that this place is often an excellent place ... the only place for some ... to learn what questions to ask.

    At further risk ... certainly some here are not who they or others claim to be.  Bullshido is full of news about these folks.  So such caution is demonstrably necessary.

    At extreme risk ... even in the "real judo world" there are people of all ranks who cannot find their "shiri" with both "te."  Or whose views are controversial ... or discredited ... or who are plain nuts.

    So ... in the dojo ... mudansha should STFU and listen ... less talk, more rock.  But here on the internet the org chart is perfectly horizontal for anyone with a connection and a device.

    Note: Need to add this. Personally, I do find personal attacks on a poster's real world credibility a bit distasteful on this forum. Mostly that is because it is a difficult format in which to defend one's honor, and because it has real world ramifications of which a person may not be immediately aware. It has rarely occurred and that's a sign that most here are ladies and gentlemen. I do hope it stays that way.


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    Kenan79

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Kenan79 on Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:41 pm

    ^^Exactly.

    My old sensei who's an "old school" (no PC, no internet) warned me about taking these forums too seriously. Make no mistake: I love this place and I think it's a very valuable source of judo-related info as long as you don't allow yourself getting entangled into endless debates. It's just pointless and a waste of time. You know what they say about arguing over internet and special olympics, right?

    Real judo should stay in dojo, as well as the hierarchy.

    I can have  an open off-practice chat with my sensei and he would never use the fact of my low rank to diminish my opinion or demand I provide him with an additional "proof" of my expertise in order to be able to express it, for he knows I practice really hard and love the sport and that's what really counts and this is why I have his respect - even if he knows I'm completely wrong on many judo-related issues. If you want a one-sided discussion though, with noone ever questioning you, you can always talk to the mirror.

    Once you start waving your rank in front of other folks faces, that's when you actually start loosing it. It's a trap many folks fall into, after years and years of hardships they just grow tired and bored of judo and decide to venture into politics and before they realize it, they become the kind noone really wants to have anything to do with. People may nod their heads and show them courtesy but in reality, they are as lonely as it gets, not to mention the little influence they have as such, on anyones opinion.

    medo

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by medo on Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:23 am

    Hi Kenan,
    I can see Hanons point mainly through my years of touring clubs in the uk where I have had kyu grades question and show me where I was going wrong mainly because I would visit a club and let the students play with me taking ukemi , them thinking I was an easy touch. By the end they had realized they had missed judged my skills this has happened on many occasions.
    Most of us 30/40yrs plus judokas have tales to tell and experiences to share through this media it’s a pity that out of the thousands of kohaku ranks out there that they don’t participate here?
    I believe that I come across here as a bit brash mainly because I don’t comment on the bits I agree with but the bits that don’t seem quite right or I have something to add.
    None here or anywhere can say they know everything “ judo”. This media although can’t teach the doing part on the mat is an excellent way of helping many just started like yourself and us old alike.

    samsmith2424

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by samsmith2424 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:24 am

    I would have understood if we were on the mat, but we are on a forum open to everyone.

    That is not to say every opinion is worth the same, but everyone has the right to express an opinion.





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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:59 am

    Kenan79 wrote:^^Exactly.

    You know what they say about arguing over internet and special olympics, right?



    No !! what do they say about special olympics ??????????

    Hanon

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Hanon on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:41 am

    samsmith2424 wrote:I would have understood if we were on the mat, but we are on a forum open to everyone.

    That is not to say every opinion is worth the same, but everyone has the right to express an opinion.






    Of course and people MUST express opinions BUT expect, on a public forum, to have those opinions challenged. Is that fair or not?

    All I have done here is ask a poster to explain how he feels he has the knowledge base to judge the worthiness of a kohaku rank. I find that a perfectly reasonable question? I don't expect nor desire to change such an opinion but I think it reasonable to make a challenge. If this is OOO please explain why?

    It is 'My opinion' that the 'kata' kodokan goshinjutsu, is at least of questionable content and practical application. This is an opinion and I posted such on this forum. I didn't expect people to agree with me. I expected and was heavily challenged.

    Best wishes,

    Mike


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:56 am


    I posted a link to an article on terminal rank in judo. Essentially the article discusses the issue that one's ability in jûdô should limit the rank available. In other words, one should not receive consecutive rank promotions solely because one has made time-in-grade or age.

    When posting the article I debated whether to post it in the Yûdanshakai seciont or the Promotion section. If one takes literally the intent of the organization of the forum sections, probably if I would have posted it in the Yûdanshakai section it would have implied that it was intended only for real-life shodan and higher. How realistic that is I do not know, since obviously people can claim to be shodan when they are not, but even if they are shodan, there difference in abilities, quality and experience can be enormous. One can be a shodan with 65 years of jûdô experience who once still defeated Geesink and has prepared 400 students for shodan all the way to hachidan, and one can be a shodan since last week and be 16 years of age, never taught, still green behind the ears. So even strictly adhering to the criterion does not say that much. Or, they don't even have to claim anything and simply access it and read it and reply. That's how it is. It's not a matter if it should be like this or not. That's for the owners and moderators to figure out.

    But, in the end I decided to post it in the promotion section. So, no limits on who can apply. That is a bit what Quicksilver alluded to too. I think it then becomes a matter of common sense. But that is easier said than done since common sense probably is situational and needs to take into account the public nature of this forum, possible generalizations, experience, and the fact that conversations on the Internet are different from conversations you have between two people. Conversations here between two people are watched by hundreds of others. Many of us, including myself have made mistakes in the past in the process of learning how to best function in this medium.

    Looking at our friend Kenan79's initial post, essentially what I read in there is mentioning an experience of 3 years of jûdô, orange belt, and sharing a concern about politics in jûdô which also affects jûdô ranks, but more so high ranks than lower ranks. So really, the post covers two separate fields: (1) the individual's own situation, and (2) the overall politics in jûdô as they boil down to rank. But, it does not seem to me that individual is using #2 to explain a problem that would exist with regard to #1.

    In Hanon-sensei's initial response to this both issues are addressed. My reading of the first part of Hanon-sensei's reponse seems to be that the understanding of Kenan79's first point, namely that he is an orange belt with 3 years of experience is perceived somewhat as an anomaly. It is not possible beyond speculation to know for sure if this perception is based on either reading that Kenan79 himself regrets the situation or whether it is only a problem when taking into account the average rank of people after 3 years of jûdô experience. It seems to me that a potential misunderstanding here may have started the evolution the thread is currently taking.

    The second part of Hanon-sensei's response addresses Kenan79's second argument as to how he can comment on the situation of higher ranks. I think the core of this issue is affected by a number of semantic problems:

    - how saying something about an issue in general affects the individual to whom this issue applies but where the general statement becomes largely inaccurate and thus potential offensive (the statement "people from Stupidville where the average IQ is 50 are all stupid is read by someone from Stupidville whose IQ is 160". The latter will be grossly offended as the statement is offensive to him and thus untrue; but it is not necessarily untrue as a general statement on the average inhibitant of Stupidville)

    - whether Kenan79's statement really should be perceived as an assessment by himself of higher dan-ranks rather than relaying what he and many are exposed to via YouTube, Internet, etc., is not clear. In other words, we all will make statements based on information that is randomly available via the Internet and that takes a topic out of the realm of experts. The same applies to numerous other situations: for example, some plane or train accident happens and numerous people will express opinions though they never were trained to operate planes or trains; someone has a medical condition and numerous people will comment based on sympathy, anecdotal stories or Internet wisdom, etc. In the case of jûdô or martial arts high ranks, numerous people can read information on the Internet where questions are raced on the merit or veracity of a high rank or watch YouTube videos. Take a video like this. Everyone will have opinions about it, including those who never practised any martial arts:




    Many of these are even geared to a general public, and we saw numerous representations of somewhat similar conflicts during the heydays of the judo vs. BJJ discussions on this forum.

    To put it simple, it seems to me that one has to distinguish between "claiming authority" and "relaying information that is generally available without claiming authority". It seems to me that Kenan79 is more doing the second than the first, but given the nature of Internet communication, these subtle yet critical differences are not always easily or correctly perceived. It seems that in Internet communication the separation between both quite different angles is much vaguer than in real life. Perhaps contributors could reflect on this ?

    In other words, I don't think that Kenan79 is claiming: "look even though I am relatively unexperienced I have so much insight and understanding in jûdô that I can indepently assess and qualify what ranks much higher than my own should represent and whether an individual meets these criteria."

    If, however, this were truly the case, and "IF" Kenan79 would claim this authority --which is not at all clear he does-- then no doubt the INDIVIDUAL to whom a generalization is applied could justifiably make the case that Hanon-sensei is making.

    At that point though the thread is derailing further deviating futher from the core. Kenan79 makes a reference to rank-waving and not taking forums seriously. This is perhaps not the wisest move, for a number of reasons, but anyhow.

    The way I read this, Hanon-sensei speaks for himself. He knows his experience better than anyone else, and he is not claiming anywhere a specific rank. But even if he did, what he is really saying that for him as a very experienced jûdô teacher, experience which he has gathered on the tatami and by preparing and guiding many jûdôka from novice all the way to black belt, it is grosly unfair to him to be dragged by a novice jûdôka into a group of people who may well wave ranks they obtained just by sitting out time in grade and service. In other words, he is not taking issue with rank itself but with his whole persona as a committed and very experienced teacher who has paid his dues on the tatami, being dragged into a situation he has precisely contested most of his life being an outspoken critic of jûdô politics. He is speaking for himself and there is no doubt that he IS experienced and IS a judo teacher. He is not making up or fabricating this exprience or persona.

    Those are perhaps some points to consider.

    Then we arrive at the final point, namely the tension that envelops the quality of a response with regard to the seniority, background of the individual. This is a complicated issue. As we all know, there are many issues in all areas where experts disagree. But, even among experts the issue of expertise plays. Another good example where we saw these conflicts were the Fukushima nuclear disaster. There were obviously millions of opinions from laypeople in the street to experts, many opinions that were emotionally driven that made no sense whatsoever, many unqualified people who spoke. But the problem is more complicated since also qualfied people and experts disagree. Is an a quantum physicist as expert as a nuclear physicist ? Is a nuclear physist who has never worked on nuclear disasters as expert as one who has ? On top of that the context involves future developments which no one can state with certainty. In other words, some issues are even more complicated than expert vs. nonexpert as it is impossible to express the whole situation, especially the future in facts, since you cannot have 'facts' when something has not yet occurred. Same with regard to some of the issues raised her. Not everything can be expresses in terms of facts. Some are multifactorial, with even the standard of measurement not agreed on.

    In terms of taking this forum seriously or not. I think to be fair that there are many threads that should not be taken seriously at all and having very low quality whereas there are others that have publication quality. Much of this is determined by the topic, but also by the people participating, and depending on the topic the quality of participation does not necessarily need to be expressed in expertise. For example, there were on the old forum some very high-value threads where the value was more achieved by the ease and openness with which people shared personal stories rather than by finding some absolute truth. This forum appears to fulfill several functions; one may be as a reference, but another one certainly is of a merely social nature. The criteria to express the quality of achieving a social goal greatly differ from those of assessing the accuracy of a reference work.

    What I am trying to say --and I like to remind people that it is still Christmas-- is that we all can have misunderstandings, can hurt others without intending to hurt them though such does not mean their pain does not exist. Please, as much as we might be inclined to raise our shields I would encourage everyone to look at ourselves and see what we can do to avoid miscommunication and untinentionally hurt each other's feelings, though on the other hand, I am also not asking for people to walk on egg shells.

    Merry Christmas to everyone ! And please, all make an effort to get this thread back on track. Thank you.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:12 pm

    I am afraid I cannot see the post that has caused Hanon to take such offence.  All I can see is a throwaway remark by Kenan79 where he asserts that many high ranks are awarded on "politics."  

    Grades in judo should reflect knowledge and skill. Additionally they should be fairly and freely awarded on that basis. However, nowhere is that the case. All judo bodies use grades - particularly kodansha ones - to control judoka. Those that toe the line are rewarded with promotions, or the promise of promotion, those that challenge the establishment often have promotions denied. The real interpretation of loose term "services to judo"is "services to a particular organisation" or senior federation personality. It is especially true for grades of 6 dan (with that coveted kohaku obi) and higher outside of Japan, where often there is no "exam" that one can present themselves for, and promotion is only availabe at the gift of a promotion committee composed of estblishment seniors. This is an imperfect and flawed system because promotion committees being composed of humans are imperfect and flawed.

    My perspectives is that grades really only mean something in the organisation that awarded them - promotion standards all over the world vary hugely - and it is pointless to compare one organisation with another and individual grade holders with others. For example obtaining a black belt shodan in Japan is much easier to obtain than in the UK, because attitidues about what shodan are different - in Japan shodan means you have completed a basic course of judo education and made progress - the begining of a journey, whereas in the West black belt is viewed by many as being the end of the journey - a master grade. 6 dan in Japan is quite accessible and most machi dojo will have several 6 dan holders among their ranks of their middle aged players. There is an exam with well defined criteria for 6 dan and once you have satisifed the criteria - you get the grade. No opaque consideration by a panel of federation worthies. The same is true all the way up to 8 dan which is regarded as the terminal rank in almost all circumstances. Obtaining a 9 dan or 10 dan in Japan is hugely difficult, time in grade for promotion from 8 dan to 9 dan is normally 21 years, with 10 years as a minimum. Sometimes it is reduced for exceptional cases - e.g. Uemura-kancho.

    What I would look for is the following:

    - Grades should be awarded after an examination by an independent panel who have the ranks and seniority to exam someone for that grade.
    - The time-in-grade should minimally compare to the standards of the Kodokan: 5-12 years for 6 dan, 6-15 years for 7 dan, 9-18 for 8 dan
    - The age at promotion should minimally compare to Kodokan standards: 6 dan (27 years old), 7 dan (33 years old), 8 dan (42 years old)
    - There should be an increase in judo knowledge and new contributions to judo SINCE THE LAST PROMOTION.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:24 pm

    medo wrote:
    Kenan79 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:

    And btw, there's no sandbagging, croatian system is among other things, time-based so you get every belt after 1 year of active practice and I'm yet to completely reach the 3 year mark (for a green belt). I'm where I'm supposed to be. Wink


    So a years practice equals 1 belt grade? even if you train 5days a week! I can understand that transition from brown to black could take time as that is the big step but seriously 3yrs everyday training and only a low kyu grade that I don't understand.    

    In the new system introduced by the BJA the norm is  to progress at 1 grade colour per year for both children and adults.  This however is driven by money making concerns in the case of children, where there are 18mon grades, with each colour being subdivided into 3.  The costs is £7.50 per mon, with a suggested surcharge of £5 on top.  It is only allowed to progress one mon at a time.

    The OP's situation is not that unusual.

    still learning

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by still learning on Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:53 pm

    Jonesy wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Kenan79 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:

    And btw, there's no sandbagging, croatian system is among other things, time-based so you get every belt after 1 year of active practice and I'm yet to completely reach the 3 year mark (for a green belt). I'm where I'm supposed to be. Wink


    So a years practice equals 1 belt grade? even if you train 5days a week! I can understand that transition from brown to black could take time as that is the big step but seriously 3yrs everyday training and only a low kyu grade that I don't understand.    

    In the new system introduced by the BJA the norm is  to progress at 1 grade colour per year for. Oth children and adults.  This however is driven by money making concerns in the case of children, where there are 18mon grades, with each colour being subdivided into 3.  The costs is £7.50 per mon, with a suggested surcharge of £5 on top.  It is only allowed to progress one mon at a time.
    .

    A nice generalisation Jonesy, but the revised grading syllabus does allow for faster promotions per page 6 on the attached.
    http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/sites/default/files/Mon%20Grading%20Syllabus%20Oct%202013.pdf there is a similar link for kyu grades.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:17 pm

    still learning wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Kenan79 wrote:
    Hanon wrote:

    And btw, there's no sandbagging, croatian system is among other things, time-based so you get every belt after 1 year of active practice and I'm yet to completely reach the 3 year mark (for a green belt). I'm where I'm supposed to be. Wink


    So a years practice equals 1 belt grade? even if you train 5days a week! I can understand that transition from brown to black could take time as that is the big step but seriously 3yrs everyday training and only a low kyu grade that I don't understand.    

    In the new system introduced by the BJA the norm is  to progress at 1 grade colour per year for. Oth children and adults.  This however is driven by money making concerns in the case of children, where there are 18mon grades, with each colour being subdivided into 3.  The costs is £7.50 per mon, with a suggested surcharge of £5 on top.  It is only allowed to progress one mon at a time.
    .

    A nice generalisation Jonesy, but the revised grading syllabus does allow for faster promotions per page 6 on the attached.
    http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/sites/default/files/Mon%20Grading%20Syllabus%20Oct%202013.pdf there is a similar link for kyu grades.
    Yes, but this is a "one off" and does not apply to grades above 6 mon.

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    Re: Terminal rank in jūdō

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