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    score this throw?

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    Score?

    [ 5 ]
    22% [22%] 
    [ 5 ]
    22% [22%] 
    [ 7 ]
    30% [30%] 
    [ 3 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 3 ]
    13% [13%] 

    Total Votes: 23

    Ricebale

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    score this throw?

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:01 am




    Thoughts?

    still learning

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by still learning on Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:53 am

    As I see it:
    Blue attacks with uchi mata
    White counters with a weak uchi mata sukaishi
    Blue spins out of the counter putting himself on his back





    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:27 am

    This is always scored, how could it not be ?

    Even if you are thrown but in the air take over control and initiate a sutemi-waza while coming down flat on your back the other one will virtually always get a score. You have a water chance of avoiding it if there is no delay and the counter is so closely linked that before the ref can do anything the other one too will be thrown flat on his back. In case any such attempt for take-over fails it's literally unavoidable to not get a score against. EVERY experienced competitor knows that irrespective of whether you get thrown or fall over your own feet, don't land on your back because it will be ippon score against. Everything else is a merely academic argument with regard to competitive jûdô. Besides, many of these things are impossible to distinguish in realtime while on the tatami as a referee and require video slow motion to get a clearer grasp on. Even then, video does not always give the correct answer either and sometimes only the jûdôka themselves who were involved really know. That is impossible to use as ground for decision since the jûdôka will always lie in order to be awarded to victory (ref. the Douillet/Shinohara case where Douillet kept insisting he knew very well that it was he who (supposedly) threw Shinohara ...)

    I notice the poll gives the option "skillful entry into newaza". This is a joke, right ?


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    Ricebale

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:00 am

    I never joke Smile

    I can see a placement of a player on his back, I can't identify the qualities I associate with Ippon though, but it's definitely beyond my skill to score.

    seatea

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by seatea on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:08 am

    still learning wrote:As I see it:
    Blue attacks with uchi mata
    White counters with a weak uchi mata sukaishi
    Blue spins out of the counter putting himself on his back





    Agreed.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:26 am

    Ricebale wrote:I never joke Smile

    I can see a placement of a player on his back, I can't identify the qualities I associate with Ippon though, but it's definitely beyond my skill to score.

    Ricebale,

    There are refs these days who even when you are in newaza and 'throw' (= turn) someone, will give ippon to you. And there are refs when you're on your knees and lose your balance and end up on your back, will give ippon to the other one. So you really think that what is shown in the video you posted is going to be an issue. Keep the description for ippon as it is in the IJF Refereeing Rules as nice historic reminder of how it once was ...


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    Ricebale

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:50 am

    I'm a fan of wrestling, in the sequence above I can see back exposure etc so there would be a score given under wrestling rules.

    One of the things I always liked (or thought I did) about Judo was the requirements for Ippon being something more than back exposure, ah well

    The quiz stats above are showing significant divergence of opinion though, so whilst the olympic rule might be one thing peoples eyes are seeing all sorts

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:34 pm

    Ricebale wrote:
    The quiz stats above are showing significant divergence of opinion though, so whilst the olympic rule might be one thing peoples eyes are seeing all sorts

    And this surprises you, when everyone can vote from white belts with just two months of jûdô experience to hockey moms to seasoned international refs ? Do you think you the result would be any different if your question would be about Einsteins Theory of Relativity ? Yes, why would anyone go an ask a physics expert with expertise in quantum mechanics if you can just ask Joe Sixpack ? In jûdô everyone has an opinion and that is good too for their learning process, but it may be as suited to build definitive conclusions as it would be to measure our average shoe size and give everyone shoes to wear of that size. I think there are going to be a lot of sore feet.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Davaro

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Davaro on Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:19 pm

    I scored it Wazari as I feel white did enough to warrant his effort being a counter to the attempted uchimata. The impact did not warrant ippon in my opinion though.


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    Ricebale

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:22 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:
    The quiz stats above are showing significant divergence of opinion though, so whilst the olympic rule might be one thing peoples eyes are seeing all sorts

    And this surprises you, when everyone can vote from white belts with just two months of jûdô experience to hockey moms to seasoned international refs ?  Do you think you the result would be any different if your question would be about Einsteins Theory of Relativity ?  Yes, why would anyone go an ask a physics expert with expertise in quantum mechanics if you can just ask Joe Sixpack ?  In jûdô everyone has an opinion and that is good too for their learning process, but it may be as suited to build definitive conclusions as it would be to measure our average shoe size and give everyone shoes to wear of that size. I think there are going to be a lot of sore feet.

    Yes I agree

    Your supposition of surprise is non logical however

    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:20 am

    Davaro wrote:I scored it Wazari as I feel white did enough to warrant his effort being a counter to the attempted uchimata. The impact did not warrant ippon in my opinion though.

    I agree with Davaro.........WAZARI - WHITE.

    Blue attempts Uchi Mata.
    White counters with Sukashi and Tae Guruma.
    Blue attempts a rotation and lands on side/partially on back (but not cleanly)
    Score to White.

    IMHO

    Hanon

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Hanon on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:09 am

    Waza-ari also.

    Mike


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    Dave R.

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Dave R. on Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:44 am

    Ricebale wrote:


    Thoughts?

    If I was an IJF referee forced to score certain throws a certain way I’d probably have to say this is an Ippon.  Without looking at the other replies I say Ippon on the basis of force, speed, and technique for today's standards.

    Edit: Also, having been through a referee seminar once in my life they teach to consider the highest possible score and work your way down.

    Ryvai

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    Re: score this throw?

    Post by Ryvai on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:26 am

    This is obviously uchimata-sukashi for white in my eyes. You can see him (white) pushing with the right hand to turn him over but the direction of movement is wierd and so is the result. It does not qualify for ippon. Definitely wazaari though Smile

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