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    Time for judo throw development (?)

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    Q mystic

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    Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:13 am

    I am of the belief that a young and athletic judoka will typically become a pretty good thrower by time he is a blue belt. That's having a few go-to throws that he is proficient at in comp.

    Blue belt is usually 2 years assuming that he trains twice/week at 2hrs each. That's 16hrs/month x 10 months of the judo year = 160 hrs/yr x 2 yrs = 320.

    320 hrs to become a relatively decent throwing judoka.

    Does that look around the norm in your opinions?


    Last edited by Q mystic on Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:29 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Guest on Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:17 am

    I’m not sure if it is wise to proclaim “norms” as everyone’s skill level and physical abilities are different. You say “norms” but norms for who? A 15 year old male? A 40 year old female?
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:27 am

    Dave R. wrote:I’m not sure if it is wise to proclaim “norms” as everyone’s skill level and physical abilities are different.  You say “norms” but norms for who?  A 15 year old male?  A 40 year old female?  

    lol. Good point. Young and athletic. I'll edit. Thanks.


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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by medo on Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:25 am

    Q mystic wrote:I am of the belief that a young and athletic judoka will typically become a pretty good thrower by time he is a blue belt. That's having a few go-to throws that he is proficient at in comp.

    Blue belt is usually 2 years assuming that he trains twice/week at 2hrs each. That's 16hrs/month x 10 months of the judo year = 160 hrs/yr x 2 yrs = 320.

    320 hrs to become a relatively decent throwing judoka.

    Does that look around the norm in your opinions?

    How long is a piece of string! Even young athletic natural types depending on how hard they practice takes time. Then some so gifted, that within a year or so start taking out all around them.

    My thoughts are it depends on the club/clubs they train at by the time they get to blue the majority of their training should be randori which is where the instructor cannot teach(attack/defense balance skills specific to resisting opponents).

    I have had many blues/browns visit my old club where my yellows gave them a hard time because they came from technique specific clubs that only had ten minutes randori at the end? Yes they could demonstrate most throws but had no idea how to attack a person who just turned it to their advantage by a simple shift of body weight which only comes with continual randori practice.


    Hanon

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Hanon on Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:47 am

    Q mystic wrote:I am of the belief that a young and athletic judoka will typically become a pretty good thrower by time he is a blue belt. That's having a few go-to throws that he is proficient at in comp.

    Blue belt is usually 2 years assuming that he trains twice/week at 2hrs each. That's 16hrs/month x 10 months of the judo year = 160 hrs/yr x 2 yrs = 320.

    320 hrs to become a relatively decent throwing judoka.

    Does that look around the norm in your opinions?


    I would suggest the variables involved in trying to answer your question make such an answer rather redundant.

    Physical aptitude, attributes of pupil AND coach.
    Intellect of pupil AND coach.
    Experience of coach.

    Define a "Decent throwing judoka".

    Quality and number of peers to practice with. With all good intention in the world if the coach is brilliant and the pupil also brilliant without other students to work with ................Not to mention the quality of those 'others students'.

    I doubt it productive to calculate such unknowns? But then again I don't know?

    I do know that as you have the interest to ask such a question you will achieve your goals. Wink 

    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Hanon on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:07 am

    I was just about to reply to your reply when your reply vanished. You raised some very interesting points and points that deserve answers. I don't know why you removed your post but you have nothing to fear here from challenging conventions. THE only true way to learn this odd activity of ours is to ask as many questions as you can.

    Please debate and ask questions. We all learn from them.

    Mike


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:13 am



    I agree and awesome posts. Thank you.

    There just seems to be this 'learning curve' talk that gets under my skin a little bit.lol

    I have been reading too much about it compared to other similar sports and I don't see it as very accurate. Combat, and quality and number of peers. Well said.

    I  understand how awesome the wrestlers shot is, but a good one won't be learned any quicker than a seoinage or an ogoshi.  Simply because these guys don't experience a judoka's level of activity there.


    Last edited by Q mystic on Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:15 am

    Hanon wrote:I was just about to reply to your reply when your reply vanished. You raised some very interesting points and points that deserve answers. I don't know why you removed your post but you have nothing to fear here from challenging conventions. THE only true way to learn this odd activity of ours is to ask as many questions as you can.

    Please debate and ask questions. We all learn from them.

    Mike

    Sry. Above Hanon. I ranted and didn't read your posts clearly enuff. You guys made good points and I still ranted like I was pi$$ed.lol.

    Mostly just the thought of a double being so easy to learn because imo, that's all they ever really practice, compared to shoulder and hip throws. They don't understand that a shot (which is thee best thing ever, maybe) takes more time and imo, more ability to get good at.


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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Hanon on Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:10 pm

    Just wrote a post and lost it. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

    The goyo are relatively easy to learn. They are only the alphabet of kodokan judo. Lets take a look at the works of Shakespeare, Tolstoy, solzhenitsyn
    Wilde, Shaw et al. They made an alphabet sing with colours and shades.

    The gokyo do not teach hazumi, debana, maiai and kuzushi. The gokyo don't directly teach compassion and care, self respect, respect for others, self discipline and integrity of action.

    Judo does have a learning curve and that curve is a continuum, we pass though phases of understanding then what we thought we understood we discover we didn't!

    Judo is different for every single pupil. We are all different and this difference is to be celebrated and accepted, it is what bridges divides and builds bridges. In terms of training in judo I do understand your question and I am truly sorry to answer you with esoteric answers. What you ask though is not really practical to answer. The best I can do is answer why I cant answer! affraid 

    My lost post was better than this one!

    Mike

    BTW do rant and have your say. if you don't you will never push the envelope. Please don't accept what is written here and swallow it whole. Push for answers and by doing that you make every poster think especially this one.


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    Q mystic

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Q mystic on Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:58 pm

    I do believe the learning curve, but I do believe that judo throws are more easily learned than a good shot. (for practical relativity)

    A lot of people seem to be basing the shot value off of fighting bjjers where the shot is really not much more (unless they are hi-comp vets) than a double, which really has no value in a sport where they often pull guard.loll..

    Everyone just seems to equate learning (prolific) judo throws like it is incredibly hard, which it isn't.


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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by medo on Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:52 pm

    Q mystic wrote:I do believe the learning curve, but I do believe that judo throws are more easily learned than a good shot. (for practical relativity)

    A lot of people seem to be basing the shot value off of fighting bjjers where the shot is really not much more (unless they are hi-comp vets) than a double, which really has no value in a sport where they often pull guard.loll..

    Everyone just seems to equate learning (prolific) judo throws like it is incredibly hard, which it isn't.

    I'm a little lost on this Could you explain what a good shot is! Say in judo terms.

    Anyone could teach Judo techniques from a books pictures and indeed have met instructors that do Shocked

    still learning

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by still learning on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:23 pm

    Hanon wrote:

    hazumi, maiai
    .

    Excuse my ignorance, but could you explain these terms as they are new to me.

    Hanon

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Hanon on Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:53 am

    still learning wrote:
    Hanon wrote:

    hazumi,  maiai
    .

    Excuse my ignorance, but could you explain these terms as they are new to me.

    Hazumi is momentum as apposed to ikio which is force. In judo we aim for relaxed round smooth movement not staccato, rigid, clumsy actions
    Ma-ai is distance. Ma-ai is a vital element in the execution of a throw when we apply maximum efficiency with minimum effort.

    I guess we could look at the mechanics of a throwing action as; kumi kata, hazumi, ma-ai, debana, kuzushi, tsukuri then kake. This is an oversimplification but its a point to start from. Though each phase has a name in practice they become just one movement.
    Unsure I am helping you?

    Mike

    BTW, because you ask a civil question does not mean you are ignorant. Ignorance is often the desire not to learn and ask the questions. Thank you for asking your question.


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    still learning

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by still learning on Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:58 am

    Hanon wrote:
    still learning wrote:
    Hanon wrote:

    hazumi,  maiai
    .

    Excuse my ignorance, but could you explain these terms as they are new to me.

    Hazumi is momentum as apposed to ikio which is force. In judo we aim for relaxed round smooth movement not staccato, rigid, clumsy actions
    Ma-ai is distance. Ma-ai is a vital element in the execution of a throw when we apply maximum efficiency with minimum effort.

    I guess we could look at the mechanics of a throwing action as; kumi kata, hazumi, ma-ai, debana, kuzushi, tsukuri then kake. This is an oversimplification but its a point to start from. Though each phase has a name in practice they become just one movement.
    Unsure I am helping you?

    Mike


    BTW, because you ask a civil question does not mean you are ignorant. Ignorance is often the desire not to learn and ask the questions. Thank you for asking your question.

    Thanks for the reply, your comments are always helpful and thought provoking.
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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by NittyRanks on Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:01 am

    It's hard to put individuals in a box or compartmentalize development. I just got my blue belt last weekend and I can tell you I know most of the throws. I don’t know how to exactly perform all of them with equal skill, but I can explain it if I see them performed. I try to make sure my mechanics are solid, that seems to be half the battle most of the time. As someone said the randori is important. So is Sute geiko in my opinion.
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    Q mystic

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Q mystic on Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:02 am

    Yeah, I had a good question, I think, but posted it in a dumb way.lol

    I guess it would be more about the 'learning curve' that so many (even non-judoka) speak of. I don't see it being any more of a learning curve than any other grappling sport, but judo is too often, imo, referred to as having some extraordinary learning curve that prevents it from becoming practical as soon as many other sports.

    I tried to quantify it too quick.lol


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    Kenan79

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Kenan79 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:07 am

    Time for judo development? How 'bout whole life? Smile
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Time for judo throw development (?)

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:48 am

    Q mystic wrote:I am of the belief that a young and athletic judoka will typically become a pretty good thrower by time he is a blue belt. That's having a few go-to throws that he is proficient at in comp.

    Blue belt is usually 2 years assuming that he trains twice/week at 2hrs each. That's 16hrs/month x 10 months of the judo year = 160 hrs/yr x 2 yrs = 320.

    320 hrs to become a relatively decent throwing judoka.

    Does that look around the norm in your opinions?

    Where I am, blue belt is nikyu. In two years ? Highly, highly doubtful at 2x/week practice, especially for non-teen kids. Hyper coordinated/talented teenager who is very successful in competition, barely possible but still doubtful.

    It took me 2.5 years to get to nikyu (was a brown belt back then), minimum practice was 3x/week 2 hours each. After sankyu, I was practicing up to 7 times a week, usually minimum 2 hours per session, usually mostly with higher ranking (read yudansha) judoka, plus lifting and running integrated into the judo training.

    I also basically had my own personal national level judo coach.


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