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    Influence of Judo to Mao

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    finarashi

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    Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by finarashi on Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:44 am

    According to John Stevens, " For example, Mao’s father-in-law had been a student of Kano’s in Japan, and he taught Mao some of Kano’s educational theories. Mao wrote a paper on Kano’s ideas."
    http://blog.shambhala.com/2013/07/31/the-way-of-judo-interview-with-john-stevens-on-jigoro-kano/

    Does anybody have a reference to it?


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:52 am

    finarashi wrote:According to John Stevens, " For example, Mao’s father-in-law had been a student of Kano’s in Japan, and he taught Mao some of Kano’s educational theories. Mao wrote a paper on Kano’s ideas."
    http://blog.shambhala.com/2013/07/31/the-way-of-judo-interview-with-john-stevens-on-jigoro-kano/

    Does anybody have a reference to it?

    If no such detail is provided in either the reference section or in a footnote, it seems to me that the most effective way is writing the author directly and asking him. If I were to I would also promptly ask him why he does not reference such statements (assuming he isn't anywhere doing so in his book).


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    finarashi

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by finarashi on Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:51 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    If no such detail is provided in either the reference section or in a footnote, it seems to me that the most effective way is writing the author directly and asking him. If I were to I would also promptly ask him why he does not reference such statements (assuming he isn't anywhere doing so in his book).
    The only reference to Yang Changi that I found was "The man who molded Mao; Yang Changi and the first generation of chinese communists" By Yeh Weh-shin, Modern China 32 (oct. 2006) 483-512. also Stevens mentions "Historian and courtesan: Chen Yinke and the writing of Liu Rushi Biezhuan" (delivered as the Morrison Lecture, Australian National University, July 2003)
    In page 180 of the book there is a reference to Mao's article "Research in Physical Education" Xing Qing Nian, 1917. That is scant I was hoping for more.
    There is not much about the article itself so maybe John Stevens got the point from the reference stated By Yeh Weh-shin.


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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:00 am

    finarashi wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    If no such detail is provided in either the reference section or in a footnote, it seems to me that the most effective way is writing the author directly and asking him. If I were to I would also promptly ask him why he does not reference such statements (assuming he isn't anywhere doing so in his book).
    The only reference to Yang Changi that I found was "The man who molded Mao; Yang Changi and the first generation of chinese communists" By Yeh Weh-shin, Modern China 32 (oct. 2006) 483-512. also Stevens mentions "Historian and courtesan: Chen Yinke and the writing of Liu Rushi Biezhuan" (delivered as the Morrison Lecture, Australian National University, July 2003)
    In page 180 of the book there is a reference to Mao's article "Research in Physical Education" Xing Qing Nian, 1917. That is scant I was hoping for more.
    There is not much about the article itself so maybe John Stevens got the point  from the reference stated By Yeh Weh-shin.

    E-mail him and ask him. All we can do is publicly speculate and potentially make ourselves look like idiots.


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    NBK

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by NBK on Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:39 am

    Kano shihan was very involved in the education of Chinese students. As Qing / Manchu dynasty control of China fell apart and China was increasingly beset by foreign powers,  Japan struck an accord with the Chinese government to send selected students for instruction in Tokyo. Kano shihan was asked to set up the school to teach them, which he did.  Eventually several hundred Chinese students came from a number of provinces, and many went back to play key roles in the disaster that became China. Most are not well known in the west, but many were important in Chinese history as revolutionaries and counterrevolutionaries. This is a very complex period in history and a key time in Sino-Japanese relations.

    There were other exchanges before and after that effort; the founder of the magazine in question, New Youth (新青年), namely 陈独秀 (陳獨秀)Chén Dúxiù, or Chen Tu-hsiu, later Secretary General of the Communist Party, was a student at the Tokyo Higher Normal School while Kano shihan was the principal.

    Here is a Japanese version of the reference to Kano in the article in question. I'm on vacation so I won't translate it, but perhaps someone can find the equivalent in Chinese, which I haven't been able to find (nor would be able to read more than very superficially), so I offer it up for your consideration.
    The English title would be 'Physical Education Research'.
    「体育の研究」なる論文は、陳独秀が編集していた雑誌『新青年』に投稿したもので、「日本の著名な体育家嘉納治五郎もまた、弱い体を以て生れ、やがて強くなった。日本の武士道も、体育の道である。更にそれが改良され、柔道として完成した。……よく体育をする人は、心も強くなる。人間が強くなるのは、運命ではなく、自らの力によるものである。」記しています。

    Happy Boxing Day!

    NBK


    Last edited by NBK on Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by hedgehogey on Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:14 pm

    'Disaster that became China'

    Yes the disaster of the average lifespan going from 35 to 63 in twenty years. They were better off being ruled by imperialist powers!
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    BillC

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by BillC on Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:25 pm

    hedgehogey wrote:'Disaster that became China'

    Yes the disaster of the average lifespan going from 35 to 63 in twenty years.

    So ... where did you get those numbers? Which 20 years? How are statistics bent when 20 or 30 million people die of starvation in the span of 3 years alone ... at least 5% of an entire, young nation?

    China remains a slow-motion disaster to this day, 50 years after Mao's self-preserving cultural revolution ... itself a direct reaction to his previous disaster, the "great leap forward." No single greater walking disaster than Mao has ever lived. No one responsible for greater loss of life or property. No one has ever had a larger deleterious effect on the moral core of a nation and set in motion more corruption or disregard for other human beings. That is not only a quantifiable fact, it is a personal story for close friends of mine.

    The Imperial Japanese were bush leaguers in that regard ... though a few of those guys with the chrysanthemum license plate frames would like to give it another shot.

    NBK says I am just to the right of the Politburo, maybe he's just to the left of Mussolini ... but on China and Mao we steadfastly agree based on study and personal experience.


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    hedgehogey

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by hedgehogey on Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:16 pm

    http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/china/life-expectancy-at-birth
    monthlyreview.org/commentary/did-mao-really-kill-millions-in-the-great-leap-forward
    http://www.invent-the-future.org/2013/12/monster-liberator-legacy-mao-zedong/

    We can also credit the change in literacy from 20% to 93% to him:

    http://schugurensky.faculty.asu.edu/moments/1949china.html
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2103.html

    As well as the end of footbinding and concubinage and the immeasurable advance of women's rights until nearly half the Chinese female population was working outside the home in years when this would be unthinkable in the USA (see Woman Work: Women And The Party In Revolutionary China).

    But if you'd prefer a China that's still a foreign colony, where women are mutilated for 'beauty' and sold like property, where tens of millions die from preventable diseases and starvation every year (as the Kuo Min Tang, America's favorite far eastern fascists did) then come clean with it. But don't pretend to be taking some kind of moral stand.

    Or as the great man himself said: "No investigation, no right to speak."
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    NBK

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by NBK on Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:38 am

    Actually, Mussolini and Hitler were leftists, leading collectivist, paternalistic socialist / populist movements.  Hence 'National Socialists', or Nazis.  They're closer to Obama and Hillary Clinton than anyone I'd call conservative.

    But understanding Mao, the Great Leap Forward and Communism for what they were - disasters imposed on the long-suffering Chinese people - is hardly an endorsement of the Kuomintang, foreign control or Japanese colonialism as the only alternatives; using that gambit as a counter to challenge the acceptability of the status quo is standard sophomoric propaganda.  

    I have researched it - go to China and ask near anyone that finally feels free to speak, decades after the fact, and you'll find a shocking number of people have personal horror stories to tell.  I've spoken with gentle academics sentenced to open ended hard labor during the Cultural Revolution, been told of farmers starved to death within kms of mountains of grain, lives and families ripped apart by the whimsical diktat of party functionaries or 'revolutionary councils' of teenagers, themselves denied normal childhood or education.  The Red Guards themselves did more damage to China's cultural heritage than a hundred years of foreign theft because unlike the foreigners they weren't trying to haul it off and put it in a museum, they just destroyed everything in place.  Even the CCP is now tolerant of detailed, published studies of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, trying to record the scope of the disaster and understand what truly happened.  

    And, by the way, I've talked to Chinese 'volunteers' who fought in the Korean War, actually peasant farm boys, children kidnapped from their families by roving press gangs to be slaughtered in human wave attacks to support another group of monsters.    

    You can find support for almost any notion on the internet - here's the Flat Earth Society.  http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/.  So finding a couple of links quoting left wing loons and some literacy data out of context is hardly surprising or proof.  You think the numbers you cite excuse the orchestrated deaths of tens of millions, you should love North Korea - it boasts of universal suffrage, near 100% literacy, most children play stringed instruments, blah blah.


    Last edited by NBK on Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:38 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : formatting)

    EastGer_Jûdôka

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by EastGer_Jûdôka on Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:53 am

    @NBK
    I think the differentation between left and right is not possible anymore. When is a person a left wing for you? Here in Germany, you have a clear definition of right wings, it is the same ideology of the NSDAP. Some say that Stalin was more right wing than left wing. Or an other example:
    Prof. Dr. Nier he is an nationalistic marxist.
    The definition of Left/Right is where you set your benchmark.
    In my opinion, it is not useful, this differentation. I know many people, who I can't decide if they are left wing or right wing, because the have characteristics of both. I think a political bent can only except is own opposite.
    For Example:
    pacifism-militarism  or
    racist- equality
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    finarashi

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by finarashi on Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:01 am

    There is pretty reliable statistics at Gapminder world

    If one looks at life expectancy and e.g. child mortality one sees that China has progressed tremendously
    http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=5.59290322580644;ti=2012$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=0ArfEDsV3bBwCcGhBd2NOQVZ1eWowNVpSNjl1c3lRSWc;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj2tPLxKvvnNPA;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL_n5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=2.2;dataMax=756$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=18;dataMax=87$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=i44_t001800,,,,

    what one must discuss is whether this progress was because of Mao or in spite of Mao. Correlation is not causality. If we look all nations then life expectancy is up.
    Did G.W.Bush cause huge economic boom in US.


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    BillC

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by BillC on Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:20 am

    NBK wrote:Actually, Mussolini and Hitler were leftists, leading collectivist, paternalistic socialist / populist movements.  Hence 'National Socialists', or Nazis.  They're closer to Obama and Hillary Clinton than anyone I'd call conservative.

    Like our little "liberal/conservative" split, the tendency to express things at exactly two extremes is universal. My apologies, I fell into the trap of using left and right as they are used in today's political propaganda ... as names painted in the end zones at a Bowl Game ... the same accusation I have leveled at you. I am indeed sorry.

    In noticed that "Won't Get Fooled Again" keeps showing up on my Pandora channels when I am at the gym ... "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" ... maybe that's me reminding myself.

    Back on point, you couldn't have expressed my exact sentiments about China and experience in China better. Mao was in no sense a liberator ...

    "Maximum efficiency grows out of the barrel of a gun" ... is that what he took away from reading Kano shihan?


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    BillC

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by BillC on Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:53 am

    EastGer_Jûdôka wrote:@NBK
    I think the differentation between left and right is not possible anymore. When is a person a left wing for you? Here in Germany, you have a clear definition of right wings, it is the same ideology of the NSDAP. Some say that Stalin was more right wing than left wing. Or an other example:
    Prof. Dr. Nier he is an nationalistic marxist.
    The definition of Left/Right is where you set your benchmark.
    In my opinion, it is not useful, this differentation. I know many people, who I can't decide if they are left wing or right wing, because the have characteristics of both. I think a political bent can only except is own opposite.
    For Example:
    pacifism-militarism  or
    racist- equality

    Sorry for hijacking your response to Mr. Natural, you can probably tell that this is  subject which gets my blood pressure up.

    What you are saying is correct, because words like "liberal" or "conservative" or "communist" or "fascist" or "capitalist" ... these are political and economic trends and ideas worth studying ... NOT PEOPLE.  Nothing frosts me more in a political discussion than being labeled.  It's schoolyard stuff from my high school days ... self-identification for the weak who otherwise have no identity ... the jocks, the band geeks, the hippies, the cowboys ... this idea becomes very, very helpful when you want to deliver people to the polling station and have them vote in a certain way ... or keep them away from the polls for that matter.  Or get them to ride around in a car until they find someone alone wearing different colors.

    Or after affixing labels, herd "them" ... parents and teachers ... onto a stage while waving a little red book and to then humiliate and beat them ... some to death ... to serve the self interest of one man.


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
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    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by hedgehogey on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:35 am

    NBK wrote:Actually, Mussolini and Hitler were leftists, leading collectivist, paternalistic socialist / populist movements.  Hence 'National Socialists', or Nazis.  They're closer to Obama and Hillary Clinton than anyone I'd call conservative.


    If you think Obama is a leftist then you're too far gone to participate in political debate. Obama is a center-right president. His opposition is far right. He's presided over an imperialist war policy that he inherited directly from Dubya Jr and expanded drastically, he introduced a bill authored by a conservative political think tank that requires people to choose corporate health care, he's presided over a record number of deportations and the expansion of our already historically unprecedented prison-industrial complex. He's a right winger with a smiley face on and some psuedo support for LGBT and women's rights (while pouring tens of millions of dollars into regimes like Saudi Arabia, where women can't vote and gays are thrown in the dungeon).


    But understanding Mao, the Great Leap Forward and Communism for what they were - disasters imposed on the long-suffering Chinese people - is hardly an endorsement of the Kuomintang, foreign control or Japanese colonialism as the only alternatives; using that gambit as a counter to challenge the acceptability of the status quo is standard sophomoric propaganda.


    Don't play a-pox-on-both-your-houses while secretly rooting for one. The benefits of Mao's rule were already outlined in the links I...  


    I have researched it - go to China and ask near anyone that finally feels free to speak, decades after the fact, and you'll find a shocking number of people have personal horror stories to tell.

    The plural of 'anecdote' is 'anecdotes', not 'data'. Or do you think that Dengist right wingers are a completely objective source?


    You can find support for almost any notion on the internet - here's the Flat Earth Society.  http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/.  So finding a couple of links quoting left wing loons and some literacy data out of context is hardly surprising or proof.  You think the numbers you cite excuse the orchestrated deaths of tens of millions, you should love North Korea - it boasts of universal suffrage, near 100% literacy, most children play stringed instruments, blah blah.

    Cool, bully for the Kims. But that's not the topic, is it? Pressed on hard data you resort to personal anecdotes. So much for the realistic stance of the American right wing.

    Edit: Also lol that you think the CIA are 'left wing loons'

    And of course, under capitalism, famine was a regular experience in China, aided and abetted by the imperialist powers. See Mike Davis Late Victorian Holocausts: El Niño Famines and the Making of the Third World


    Last edited by hedgehogey on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total

    Hanon

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by Hanon on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:40 am

    This thread is zero to do with kodokan judo. Its become a highly political thread and should be removed. I have reported it myself so all those concerned know it is me who has requested the mods to either move it to the misc section or moderate it removing any non relevant post to the OP's post.

    Mike


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    BillC

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by BillC on Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:00 am

    hedgehogey wrote:blah blah ... etc. ... blah blah ... Pressed on hard data you resort to personal anecdotes. So much for the realistic stance of the American right wing ...etc.

    1.  Some people really like their labels.

    2.  Having little experience, they look around for "data" that supports their emotional stance.

    3.  Having already labeled someone, they then decide to look into someone's statements for weakness and evidence of error out of context rather than reading it and commenting ... kind of like Rush Limbaugh does.  

    4.  If you don't respect your "living books" in life ... i.e. personal anecdotes ... there is no need for the paper kind ... that is in fact a key part of "Chairman Mao Thought."  In other words, access to primary sources are the historians constant problem and on the subject of Mao we are lucky to have many of them still alive as he targeted this concept specifically.

    Mike ... this is a totally appropriate topic for a history section, Kano-shihan was nothing if not a man of his times and Japan's involvement in China is an important part of his life story.  Some background on who Mao was seems necessary.  It is not a benign topic at all.


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by hedgehogey on Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:33 am

    So then pro-Mao Chinese (which is the vast majority of them) opinions don't count? Or are anecdotes only acceptable when it supports an anti-communist argument? Make up your minds here: either Mao personally ate a hundred million babies and that's supported by facts or your facts are that you talked to some people who said he did. You can't have it both ways and you can't keep moving the goalposts.

    If we are taking stories/anecdotes as evidence though...

    http://www.amazon.com/Some-Us-Chinese-Women-Growing/dp/0813529697
    http://revcom.us/a/161/Bai_Di_interview-en.html
    http://bermudaradical.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/the-cultural-revolution-the-struggle-to-liberate-women/

    But again, I suppose the liberation of women from semi-feudal bondage is also part of the "disaster" you think Mao was.
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    NBK

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by NBK on Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:59 am

    Sure. Your position is clear.

    Back to the topic, I tracked down the entire text of Mao's essay, translated into Japanese. I'll try to get a copy when I get back to Edo in Jan.

    Apparently the reference to Kano shihan cites him as an admirable example, noting that the famous educator and physical education proponent Kano started as a weak child who improved his physical condition by rigorous training. The rest, according to the snippets in Japanese I can find, are general comments on the poor state of China and the importance of good physical conditions.

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by hedgehogey on Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:12 am

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    Re: Influence of Judo to Mao

    Post by NBK on Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:17 am

    That's it, less the reference to Kano shihan, which was apparently edited out.

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