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    Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

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    Nagaoka

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    Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Nagaoka on Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:32 am

    http://www.busenmilano.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/yamashita_enigma.pdf

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:51 am

    Nagaoka wrote:http://www.busenmilano.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/yamashita_enigma.pdf

    Yamashita 'Yoshitsugu', not 'Yoshiaki'.

    This text has previously been available for quite some time on the website of Busen Milano but not as pdf. Its strength is that it introduces an interesting topic. However, there are also many mistakes in it, some which one could even detect if one simply carefully reads the text without even any external evidence being necessary. Perhaps even more interesting was a discussion on the same photo collection which was held here on the old forum and to which our friend Joe Svinth provided some many useful insights.


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    NBK

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by NBK on Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:49 pm

    The reference to Yukio Tani in the link is interesting.

    Tani was one of two gents brought to England by Edward Barton Wright, an English railroad design engineer who worked on the new rail systems established in Japan, and noted as the founder of Bartitsu, a modern general martial arts which has enjoyed a minor renaissance.  

    He apparently studied at the 'Handa school' of jujutsu, a dojo in Osaka.  

    After he broke with Barton Wright (BW claimed that he punched out one of his Japanese instructors during an altercation), he flailed around a bit, then Kano shihan, during a visit to the UK, promoted him directly to Kodokan judo 2 dan in one of his oft-repeated promotions to absorb able jujutsuka into the Kodokan system.


    Last edited by NBK on Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correct description of Handa school of jujutsu: see Reinberger email below)

    Reinberger

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Reinberger on Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:48 am

    NBK wrote:The reference to Yukio Tani in the link is interesting.

    Tani was one of two gents brought to England by Edward Barton Wright, an English railroad design engineer who worked on the new rail systems established in Japan, and noted as the founder of Bartitsu, a modern general martial arts which has enjoyed a minor renaissance.  

    He apparently studied at the 'Handa school' of jujutsu, a Fusen ryu dojo in Osaka.  Fusen ryu practitioners played a role in getting Kano to acknowledge the necessity to train more newaza.  

    After he broke with Barton Wright (BW claimed that he punched out one of his Japanese instructors during an altercation), he flailed around a bit, then Kano shihan, during a visit to the UK, promoted him directly to Kodokan judo 2 dan in one of his oft-repeated promotions to absorb able jujutsuka into the Kodokan system.

    NBK,

    I was under the impression that Handa Yatarō's dōjō in Ōsaka was already identified (IIRC by you, among others) as a Daitō-ryū dōjō (with that Daitō-ryū being an offshoot of Sekiguchi-ryū, not the famous style taught by Takeda Sōkaku), and then there exists that one mention regarding 1888, when Kanō-shihan went to Ōsaka with some of his Kōdōkan men, to compete against "Handa Yotarō's Tenjin shin'yō-ryū dōjō". So we have, at least, that record in the Bugei Ryūha Daijiten, that links Handa Yatarō to "Daitō-ryū", and that article from the Jūdō Daijiten, that links his dōjō to Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū in 1888, but with no other source from inside or outside of that school, that would confirm a connection.

    Now you wrote about "the 'Handa school' of jujutsu, a Fusen ryu dojo in Osaka". Did you find any new informations about this dōjō and it's owner, that confirmed the earlier speculations regarding Fusen-ryū, and provided a disproof regarding Daitō-ryū and Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū?

    BTW, Edward William Barton-Wright originally had brought to London three Japanese gents: Yukio Tani, his older brother, only known as "Tani K.", and a certain "Yamamoto S.". While Tani Yukio stayed there, Tani K. and Yamamoto S. soon returned to Japan. It is said, that they didn't like the task of having to perform jūjutsu before paying spectators at theaters and music-halls. Barton-Wright asked for a substitute, and finally Uenishi Sadakazu came to teach at Barton-Wright's institute together with Tani Yukio.


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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by NBK on Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:39 am

    Reinberger wrote:
    NBK wrote:The reference to Yukio Tani....

    NBK,

    I was under the impression that Handa Yatarō's dōjō in Ōsaka was already identified (IIRC by you, among others) as a Daitō-ryū dōjō (with that Daitō-ryū being an offshoot of Sekiguchi-ryū, not the famous style taught by Takeda Sōkaku), and then there exists that one mention regarding 1888, when Kanō-shihan went to Ōsaka with some of his Kōdōkan men, to compete against "Handa Yotarō's Tenjin shin'yō-ryū dōjō". So we have, at least, that record in the Bugei Ryūha Daijiten, that links Handa Yatarō to "Daitō-ryū", and that article from the Jūdō Daijiten, that links his dōjō to Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū in 1888, but with no other source from inside or outside of that school, that would confirm a connection.

    Now you wrote about "the 'Handa school' of jujutsu, a Fusen ryu dojo in Osaka". Did you find any new informations about this dōjō and it's owner, that confirmed the earlier speculations regarding Fusen-ryū, and provided a disproof regarding Daitō-ryū and Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū?

    BTW, Edward William Barton-Wright originally had brought to London three Japanese gents: Yukio Tani, his older brother, only known as "Tani K.", and a certain "Yamamoto S.". While Tani Yukio stayed there, Tani K. and Yamamoto S. soon returned to Japan. It is said, that they didn't like the task of having to perform jūjutsu before paying spectators at theaters and music-halls. Barton-Wright asked for a substitute, and finally Uenishi Sadakazu came to teach at Barton-Wright's institute together with Tani Yukio.
    No, your note is correct. I typed without my notes as I am traveling and in typing that, conflated two Kansai area dojo. I will correct it, thanks.

    That extended thread is one that I don't think I copied from the old forum and wish I had. I poked around a lot in an attempt to contribute to the Bartitsu Society, and was never able to find much more than what you recap above. In particular, I hoped that 'Tani K.' would show back up as a judoka, but if he did, I was unable to find him. Tani is not an unusual name.

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Reinberger on Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:49 am

    NBK wrote:That extended thread is one that I don't think I copied from the old forum and wish I had.  I poked around a lot in an attempt to contribute to the Bartitsu Society, and was never able to find much more than what you recap above.  In particular, I hoped that 'Tani K.' would show back up as a judoka, but if he did, I was unable to find him.  Tani is not an unusual name.  

    As Tani Yukio, together with Koizumi Gunji, while both were active already with the "Budokwai" in London, was "adopted into the Kōdōkan" by Kanō-shihan only about two decades after Tani K. went back to Japan , it seems possible that Tani K., even if he continued with his jūjutsu back in Japan, has never made it into the official Kōdōkan ranks and records. Therefore, possible further records about him perhaps could only be found by chance, in connection with the Handa-school or other mentions of non-Kōdōkan jūjutsu.

    Regarding the thread you think you've lost, you possibly didn't. I'll send you a PM.


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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:24 am

    Reinberger wrote:
    NBK wrote:That extended thread is one that I don't think I copied from the old forum and wish I had.  I poked around a lot in an attempt to contribute to the Bartitsu Society, and was never able to find much more than what you recap above.  In particular, I hoped that 'Tani K.' would show back up as a judoka, but if he did, I was unable to find him.  Tani is not an unusual name.  

    As Tani Yukio, together with Koizumi Gunji, while both were active already with the "Budokwai" in London, was "adopted into the Kōdōkan" by Kanō-shihan only about two decades after Tani K. went back to Japan , it seems possible that Tani K., even if he continued with his jūjutsu back in Japan, has never made it into the official Kōdōkan ranks and records. Therefore, possible further records about him perhaps could only be found by chance, in connection with the Handa-school or other mentions of non-Kōdōkan jūjutsu.

    Regarding the thread you think you've lost, you possibly didn't. I'll send you a PM.

    Many people, certainly in the Kansai region, were initially only registered with the Butokukai. Not all of them transferred to or equally got enrolled with the Kôdôkan.

    Where is Tani's grave located ?



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    NBK

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by NBK on Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:47 am

    I have no idea where Tani Yukio is buried.

    I worked on the assumption his brother 'K. Tani' returned to Kansai but never found anything about him, or their partner 'S. Yamamoto'.

    NBK

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by NBK on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:19 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    Many people, certainly in the Kansai region, were initially only registered with the Butokukai. Not all of them transferred to or equally got enrolled with the Kôdôkan.

    Where is Tani's grave located ?

    Your suggestion about looking at Butokukai records sounds good but I've never found an early, complete roster.

    The DNBK kendo folks had an interesting national level subgroup, but that was years later.

    The best public rosters are in old Judo magazines; Kano shihan published the names of every single yudansha ('dan holder', i.e., judoka ranked at shodan and above) every single year. The rosters got huge, and were eventually printed in very tiny print, strung across scores of pages of the monthly magazine, and make for very interesting reading - some posthumous promotions (the holder noted as 'deceased'), politicians, senior military officers, former prime ministers, laborers, and teenagers, all written out with their general addresses (some years, with very specific addresses in Tokyo - e.g., Kano's and other senior KDK instructors' home addresses in Tokyo were published!!), with the upper ranks in order of seniority, so you could see who the senior 6 and 5 dan holders were - some holding the same rank for decades, some getting promoted regularly (and generally faster than today, too). The foreign names, written in katakana, really stand out, and to my eye, you may spot Chinese and Korean names, too (the latter in traditional Chinese characters, not Hangul, but Chen 陳 or Lee 李 tend to stand out among more traditional Japanese names, even those with addresses like Taipei, Keijo or Shanghai). The tradition apparently died with Kano, as the later prewar magazines didn't publish the rosters; now Judo magazine only prints lists of promotions a couple of times a year, and not comprehensive lists.

    Some write that the Kodokan Bunkakai (Kodokan Culture Society) was an attempt by Kano shihan to reestablish direct links with the national judoka leadership and bypass the Dai Nihon Butuokukai. There was apparently no similar move by the kendo world, as there was never a central organization like the Kodokan for kendo. Aikido and karatedo were much later additions and didn't really play much at the national level, it seems.

    So, if I remember later, I could look in an early judo mag for a Tani in Osaka, which might be Tani Yukio's long lost brother - but then again, there's no data that he moved back to Japan, much less to Kansai. He may have just quit teaching Bartitsu and gotten a job elsewhere in Europe, moved anyplace in Japan and never converted to a Kodokan rank. It's just hard to figure out.

    NBK

    Hanon

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Hanon on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:45 am

    NBK wrote:I have no idea where Tani Yukio is buried.  

     

    London UK I believe.

    Mike


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:14 am

    See: http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/tag/yukio-tani/


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    NBK

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by NBK on Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:04 am

    Jonesy wrote:See: http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/tag/yukio-tani/
    Tony Wolf and the eclectic melange (martial artists, recreationist, steampunks, rank amateurs, even the odd old broken down judo historian) of the folks in and around the Bartitsu Society have done a fabulous job of 'crowd sourcing' the fascinating history of Edward Barton-Wright, Yukio Tani, and Bartitsu, which was 'a process of cross-training between jujitsu, boxing, savate and stick fighting, designed to beat the fearsome street gangsters of Edwardian London at their own game.'

    It started with Tony, IIRC, getting curious about the very brief, vague reference by Sherlock Holmes to 'Baritsu' (sic) in explaining how he'd escaped from the clutches of Professor Moriarty, who tried to throw himself and Holmes to their deaths off the falls.... never mind, you'd have to be a Sherlockian to get it. But info poured in from around the world, and developed a great following and a lot of fun.

    Anyhow, they now have some great material from Bartitsu and Edwardian era physical culture and pugilistics, which indirectly had great influence on the development of judo.
    The Bartitsu Compendium, Volume 1: History and the Canonical Syllabus by Tony Wolf (Paperback) online at Lulu

    The Bartitsu Compendium, Volume II: Antagonistics

    From the proceeds of the first book, the Society was able to fund the placement of a large tombstone on Barton-Wright's pauper's gravesite. They also got someone (City of London ?) to place an historic plaque at one the training sites.

    Disclaimer: I get no income from the above books, I do get a great pleasure at reading them.

    NBK

    PS - Also, the history crowd sourcing here has done a lot to push judo history in some interesting directions. There is a lot yet to be done, I reckon.

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:49 am

    "Bartitsu was probably the first Mixed Martial Arts that existed ..." (...)

    See: http://content.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,2341582789001_2142355,00.html


    So, the numerous Japanese sôgô bujutsu schools don't count ?

    I understand that "Bartitsu" is still practised, but I could not quite find any suggestion about how many "Bartitsu" clubs there exist, nor a cautious estimate of its number of practitioners. Anyone here know more about this ?


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    NBK

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by NBK on Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:14 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:"Bartitsu was probably the first Mixed Martial Arts that existed ..." (...)

    See: http://content.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,2341582789001_2142355,00.html


    So, the numerous Japanese sôgô bujutsu schools don't count ?

    I understand that "Bartitsu" is still practised, but I could not quite find any suggestion about how many "Bartitsu" clubs there exist, nor a cautious estimate of its number of practitioners. Anyone here know more about this ?
    I think the MMA reference is meant regarding the modern thought of 'MMA' as mixing throwing, grappling, kick boxing, boxing, etc rather than multiple weapons. There really isn't much if any consideration of the Japanese influence on the origin (i.e., Barton-Wright's practice of jujutsu, which was a subject of considerable research - there are a couple of photos of him with one of his jujutsu sensei, and desultory research into the specifics of those schools of judo, which were absorbed into Kodokan judo soon after BW left Japan) of the art, but apparently the focus is on the Edwardian physical culture / combatives.

    There is an active Bartitsu forum in which I've seen numerous discussions of attempts to organize dojo and study groups; I don't know if there is a central registry as such. Tony Wolf has given Bartitsu seminars and lectures in Europe and the US, seemingly either stand alone or in conjunction with other seminars, steampunk (some sort of Edwardian recreationist movement, I think) conventions, etc.

    I'd think still a curiosity with scores or some hundreds of adherents, not thousands..... But loads of fun. BW engaged some top fencers, French kick boxers, and developed a thorough walking stick curriculum to counter thugs with knives. I think the celebrated bicycle kata made it in, too!

    Nagaoka

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Nagaoka on Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:03 am

    http://www.bartitsu.org/

    Nagaoka

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Nagaoka on Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:54 am

    http://www.nycsteampunk.com/bartitsu/club.html

    NBK

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by NBK on Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:56 am

    Having abandoned discussion of Yamashita sensei entirely, here's a discussion of one of the earliest lectures regarding judo and jujutsu of which I know.
    Edward Barton-Wright's London Japan Society lecture on judo
    I have the entire transcript from the Japan Society - I may be able to post someplace, probably a new thread.

    NBK

    noboru

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    Fudeko Yamashita (wife of Yoshiaki Yamashita) practiced Jú-no-kata

    Post by noboru on Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:37 pm

    Fudeko Yamashita (wife of Yoshiaki Yamashita) practiced Jú-no-kata

    http://www.ishiryoku.co.jp/user/takuwa/takuwa01/images_ser14/series14_03_1.jpg


    Source: http://www.ishiryoku.co.jp/user/takuwa/takuwa01/ser14_p01.html

    Jonesy

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:57 am

    Hanon wrote:
    NBK wrote:I have no idea where Tani Yukio is buried.  

     

    London UK I believe.

    Mike
    Yukio Tani was cremated at Golder's Green Crematorium, and his ashes were scattered there.  There is a commemorative wall plaque there too.


    Last edited by Jonesy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total

    Jonesy

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:03 am

    There is a nice article on Yamashita-sensei 10 Dan in the first issue of Judoka Quarterly.

    NBK

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by NBK on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:25 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    NBK wrote:I have no idea where Tani Yukio is buried.  

     

    London UK I believe.

    Mike
    Yukio Tani was cremated at Golder's Green Crematorium, and his ashes were scattered there.  There is a commemorative wall plaque there too.
    Jonsey,
    Thanks for that.
    Any idea of the inscription?
    NBK

    Jonesy

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    Re: Yoshiaki Yamashita - a enigma.

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:01 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    NBK wrote:I have no idea where Tani Yukio is buried.  

     

    London UK I believe.

    Mike
    Yukio Tani was cremated at Golder's Green Crematorium, and his ashes were scattered there.  There is a commemorative wall plaque there too.
    Jonsey,
    Thanks for that.
    Any idea of the inscription?
    NBK
    "In Memory of Yukio Tani. A Pioneer of Ju-Jitsu in England.  Died 24th January 1950. Aged 69 Years."

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