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    Tori and Uke in competition

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    Stevens

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    Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by Stevens on Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:10 am

    Opinion:
    A kata-couple has to show a kata as tori ànd uke!

    Reasons:
    Being tori or uke is different and need both specific skills. Sometimes a couple know only the tori or uke techniques.
    The result gives a allroundscore.
    More fun for the competitors (my opinion).

    I understand it brings extra work with it for the competitors and organisation.

    One day when my friend and i get the gold we can really say we're both champion of a kata!

     Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes 


    Lurker

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by Lurker on Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:32 am

    The Kodokan Summer Kata Course every July ends with a kata “competition” – not really a competition, as there are no first, second, third prizes handed out. Instead you demonstrate Kata to receive Kodokan certification in that Kata (CK and Mike Hanon have written extensively about this, I make no further comment). To enter this competition, you must do both sides of the kata  - uke and tori. We went this summer and did not know this – we entered the competition doing a Kata we know fairly well (but not the Kata that we have done in IJF competition). However, when we had practiced this kata in the past we generally stayed to our specific roles of uke or tori. Occasionally we switched in practice just for fun, and for my last grading (which was two years ago) we also practiced reverse roles. At the Kodokan we were expecting to do our usual roles only, and found out we had to switch roles about an hour prior to doing it! Some panicky practices in the downstairs dojo followed. We got through it, with some rather comic errors (Murata Sensei was one of the judges for us, and told me later “we had no idea how to score your first technique!”). I spoke with all the judging sensei later, and we all had a good laugh! And yes we were certified.

    We are now making a conscious effort to switch roles where we can in practice to better appreciate each kata – some physical issues and injuries stop us from completely doing so in each kata. However, I agree with what you say.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:43 am

    Yes. It's an exciting idea to do both parts, but it also can become really problematic if there is a large difference in body mass between both partners, especially in kata where you really have to lift your partner, such as for example in jû-no-kata ...


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    wdax

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by wdax on Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:28 am

    I would not mind - it would help those, who really know, what to do..... but it all would take twice the time. So it´s not realistic.
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    heikojr

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by heikojr on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:59 pm

    My kata partner and i switch roles in kata when we are off of competing for periods of time. We have even switched rolls in competition due to injuries. I feel that this has helped us to learn the kata better... but i also feel that not practicing kata as both uke and tori is like practicing judo with only randori --- you're only practicing judo half way!

    heikojr

    Hanon

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by Hanon on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:08 am

    heikojr wrote:My kata partner and i switch roles in kata when we are off of competing for periods of time. We have even switched rolls in competition due to injuries. I feel that this has helped us to learn the kata better... but i also feel that not practicing kata as both uke and tori is like practicing judo with only randori --- you're only practicing judo half way!

    heikojr

    I like your post. You have earned my sincere respect from the content and attitude you post and write. I can learn an awful lot from you!

    It is so good to see kata develop from what it was say only 20 years ago. I recall 50 years ago 'some' sensei only requesting the nage no kata performed to one side?!

    I also agree with the sensei of old that the role of uke is a greater challenge than that of tori. It was common to see sensei partner deshi with the deshi being tori.

    You are going to be a future sensei in judo and I am pleased to see that.

    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by Hanon on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:36 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Yes. It's an exciting idea to do both parts, but it also can become really problematic if there is a large difference in body mass between both partners, especially in kata where you really have to lift your partner, such as for example in jû-no-kata ...

    I have NEVER yet worked with a partner that has been even close to my own weight and size. most uke for me have been at least 40-50 kilo heavier and one was over 12" taller!!!! I refer to ju no kata. I have them recorded on an old DVD system. I need to borrow a camera to down load the mini DVDs onto my lap top if that's possible. I could then show many clips here. I must have about 50 Mini DVDs (or what ever they are called) full of judo clips with kata. I can show you me as tori partnering much larger uke. Very difficult. Luxury to me would be working with an uke even close to my weight.
    Having written that...............the weight I am putting on I may well reach my past ukes weight!  affraid

    Mike 


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    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:06 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Yes. It's an exciting idea to do both parts, but it also can become really problematic if there is a large difference in body mass between both partners, especially in kata where you really have to lift your partner, such as for example in jû-no-kata ...

    I have NEVER yet worked with a partner that has been even close to my own weight and size. most uke for me have been at least 40-50 kilo heavier and one was over 12" taller!!!! I refer to ju no kata. I have them recorded on an old DVD system. I need to borrow a camera to down load the mini DVDs onto my lap top if that's possible. I could then show many clips here. I must have about 50 Mini DVDs (or what ever they are called) full of judo clips with kata. I can show you me as tori partnering much larger uke. Very difficult. Luxury to me would be working with an uke even close to my weight.
    Having written that...............the weight I am putting on I may well reach my past ukes weight!  affraid

    Mike 

    Sure, but it particularly becomes an issue for jû-no-kata, especially regarding contests. There has always been an interest for males to perform jû-no-kata with females. I am not talking about the 'essence' of the kata but about what is perceived as "visually pleasing" including by an audience who does not know anything about kata. For a male to perform jû-no-kata with a female makes it easier to be 'spectacular' since the additional power of the male makes it possible create the kind of power-acrobatic foundation, while the higher flexibility of the female allows her to take up more extreme positions than a male uke. In brief, you will have a greater chance to "ooohs" and "aaaaahhhhs" from the audience. I know, you're about to hit the right keys on your keyboard to type "what has that to do with jû-no-kata", and I have nowhere written it does. But in the realm of jûdô-land where idiots will decide on whether you deserve a higher rank or score than not based on criteria that have nothing to do with jûdô, such superficial perceptions can efficiently be employed and ARE efficiently being employed to achieve what one wants to achieve, that is the immediate result: a higher rank or higher score. After all, the true purpose of jû-no-kata, i.e. to improve one's jûdô skill is a long-term process that cannot be immediately assessed even if one has the insight.

    In any case, what I was trying to say is that in case of serious difference in body mass, especially in jû-no-kata, that difference is oftentimes underpinned by a difference in gender. While you will find the occasional female who might do a one-time demonstration of jû-no-kata with a male of lighter or similar weight, you won't find many serious example of females performing tori in jû-no-kata with a male who is 40 kg heavier, certainly not in competition, well at least not among competitive medal winners, and not really for rank exams. In fact, what we see today, is that some of the performers, espec from former Eastern Europe are in fact near-anorexic girls with a gymnastic past, who can do a perfectly synchronized, spectacular jû-no-kata dance that will whaw the jury, inclusive the wise Kôdôkan sensei, though with jû-no-kata there exercise has nothing to do. You think I am kidding ? Na-aaah, two Rumenian girls won the jû-no-kata kata contest during the 2010 Kôdôkan International Summer Kata School. What they did had nothing to do with jû-no-kata, but I assure you that neither you nor me could do what they do, and in fact no one on this forum can unless you are national-level gymnast or higher ... and of anorexic weight, let's not forget the latter.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    beyondgrappling

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by beyondgrappling on Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:31 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Yes. It's an exciting idea to do both parts, but it also can become really problematic if there is a large difference in body mass between both partners, especially in kata where you really have to lift your partner, such as for example in jû-no-kata ...

    Yes, I had a 135kg man ask if I could be his 4th dan kata partner. At 65kg's I declined.
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    heikojr

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    Re: Tori and Uke in competition

    Post by heikojr on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:54 pm

    Hanon wrote:I like your post. You have earned my sincere respect from the content and attitude you post and write. I can learn an awful lot from you!

    It is so good to see kata develop from what it was say only 20 years ago. I recall 50 years ago 'some' sensei only requesting the nage no kata performed to one side?!

    I also agree with the sensei of old that the role of uke is a greater challenge than that of tori. It was common to see sensei partner deshi with the deshi being tori.

    You are going to be a future sensei in judo and I am pleased to see that.

    Mike

    Thank you, Sensei, your words are too kind! I try very hard to follow in my many Sensei foot steps.

    beyondgrappling wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Yes. It's an exciting idea to do both parts, but it also can become really problematic if there is a large difference in body mass between both partners, especially in kata where you really have to lift your partner, such as for example in jû-no-kata ...

    Yes, I had a 135kg man ask if I could be his 4th dan kata partner. At 65kg's I declined.

    I don't think that there is anything wrong with smaller or larger Tori/uke partnering within reason. When the difference is so much that technique is being lost, that's when the difference is too much. I weigh between 60-65kg and i agree that 70 kilos more than my weight would be too much.

    On the other hand, i have been tori and lifted a good friend in Ju-no-kata who weighed over 100kg multiple times during a practice. We were working on the second lift in ju-no-kata (kata mawashi) and my friend, Mark Pasquinelly wanted to show the group that with proper technique a smaller person can lift a larger. I have also been to kata clinics with the late Dr. Ashida would have me lift one of his students who weighed about 100kg with kata garuma.

    I also wanted to add to the original post that i also feel that it is important to work on your kata with multiple people. Sometimes working with the same partner over and over for competition can make one miss flaws in their technique. When playing randori you don't work with only one partner, you play multiple partners, the same should be with kata.

    heikojr

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