E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Share
    avatar
    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 857
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:40 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    I do not disagree with you CK.  My contribution was, or at least was intended to be, a bit more focused.

    The original question was about teaching introductory students.  That is quite different from teaching students who already understand the basics and are ready to move on to other techniques.  Also, my focus, in my post, was on the adult student, not children's Judo.  My experience with children's Judo is much too limited to be useful for anyone.   For the adult student, including the beginner, I am a firm believer in teaching principles.  The instructor who is an expert in a given set of techniques, is likely to be able to use that expertise to teach those principles.  

    You are correct, CK, that the instructor should also be prepared to teach other techniques, in fact, all of the Gokyo and beyond.  However, I believe the beginning student will benefit most from learning those techniques the instructor understands best, especially when taught in the perspective of principles.

    Coaching is quite different than teaching.   A coach will take a comprehensive approach to the Judoka's fitness at all levels; physical, mental, attitude, and overall preparation.   Many good coaches are not especially good teachers, and vice versa.   Skill sets vary in many ways in Judo.  For example, some excellent teachers are not good referees, some referees are not good coaches, and so on.  One interesting thing about a good coach is the ability to assess talent for shiai.   Not every instructor, even some very good ones, are able to do that as well as a great coach.  Often, a great coach is someone who cannot do Judo as well as when s/he was younger.   I can think of several great coaches who are in that category.

    As the student makes progress from experience with a well-taught set of waza, and as s/he becomes more confident in the application of those waza, along with an understanding of the principles, it is helpful to learn from more different kinds of instructors, train with a larger variety of specialists, etc.  

    As I noted in my earlier post, I can no longer do a proper tomoe-nage.  There are a few other techniques that are difficult for me at my present stage of antiquity such as kata-guruma.   However, my ashi-waza along with some other techniques are still pretty good.   I cannot teach tomoe-nage as well as I could when I was younger since I can no longer demonstrate it properly.  Even so, I can spot a good tomoe-nage quite easily, and recommend corrective action for the student.  

    We use the talent we have to get the best outcome for our students.  We also need to understand our limitations.   My PhD is in a technological field, and I have an understanding of many technological topics.  However, some of my colleagues specialize in some of those topics and can teach them better than I even though when I have a pretty good grasp of them.   My practice for my academic students is to learn from those specialists if they want to get the best instruction.  I think the same often applies to Judo.    

    Please, note that I responded to the post of "StillLearning" and not to yours, even though "StillLearning" relayed or built his comment on yours.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Richard Riehle

    Posts : 79
    Join date : 2013-06-22
    Location : California

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Richard Riehle on Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:19 pm

    [quote="Cichorei Kano"]
    Richard Riehle wrote:
     

    Please, note that I responded to the post of "StillLearning" and not to yours, even though "StillLearning" relayed or built his comment on yours.


    So noted.

    Things are never really so simple, are they.


    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Hanon on Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:20 am

    Interesting.

    Foundations. To me the foundation lessons in a judokas life are paramount as to how that judoka will progress and grow. Just like any building?

    We are bipods. Standing on two feet is what we do best. We have difficulty in judo controlling our own bodies. Now we are asked or required to control the body of an uke while we, as a tori, maintain our own control. O goshi. In terms of tori both feet in shizenhontai, natural posture. Safe, no one legged requirements. O goshi in terms of being an uke is a safe way to practice yoko ukemi upon being slowly thrown.

    Westerners do not like bending their knees. O goshi requires that we bend our knees. What most novices will do is spread their legs to get lower, they will pull uke over and let him or her go. O goshi is a splendid base technique to teach tori control over his own body also learn to control the body of his uke and support his uke during the phase of kake.

    The kuzushi for o goshi is easier than most other waza, teach tori to pull uke just a tad onto his toes, not too much or uke will step forward. Teach tori to lower his COG so his obi is lower than that of uke.

    O goshi. Tori must learn early on not to 'walk the dog', by that I mean upon and after the phase of kake tori must keep his head up with straight back and not lean over his uke thus allowing uke to pull tori over and into ne waza or in terms of SD smack tori in mouth, ouch.

    o goshi is an excellent waza to teach novices the transition from tachi waza to ne waza. O goshi into juji gatame etc.

    ..............................

    Teaching is a vocation. I have never agreed that a teacher can be 'made', no amount of training can make a teacher. I am not suggesting for a moment that a teacher does not need training we do BUT if that gift of teaching is not present the training can only be robotic. A teacher has a burning desire to teach and is full of enthusiasm, those gifts-natural attributes are felt by the pupils.

    Being an Olympic champion is perhaps, though not always, the least important thing toward teaching a class. Every highly trained competitive judoka I know teaches their own techniques the way they have performed them to win THEIR championships. This is a massive mistake, but understandable.
    A teacher should teach the base technique, the foundation of the technique then have the capacity to walk around the class while they are practicing said technique and make adaptations to each tori to suit that specific toris body.

    The character of a teacher are his tools. That concept for me is a given. I wrote the character not the tokui waza. No professional teacher will teach the same, we all have different ways of holding a classes attention, of motivating a class, of getting that class to work together, to enjoy learning and want more etc.

    Being a dan rank has zero to do with being a teacher neither does being an Olympian or world champion. Being experienced in shiai via championships is a must but THE key is that spark that makes a teacher a teacher, that cannot be taught nor given.

    One more note. In the West we are not Japanese and though Judo is Japanese we cannot emulate the philosophy or character of the Japanese, to that end we have to teach the way we learn best in the West and that is not always the way teachers teach when in Japan.

    Tsuri komi goshi is a complex technique for a novice. Though tsuri and komi are vital aspects to learn and become proficient at I suggest that this is a stage to far for the novice at least in the Western world where we don't have such control over our hara nor hips nor bend our knees.

    .............................

    Ashi waza such as tsuri komi ashi or de ashi braai appear simple leg trips and that is the mistake a novice will make with them. IN randori they are among the most difficult waza to execute unless one has that gift... These ashi waza are also not suited to the mind set of the Westerner as they appear simple and quick also small techniques. In learning these waza too early the novice may-will become dependent on trying these waza and we all know what its like to be a foot ball! I respectfully suggest before those waza are taught it maybe wiser to teach a larger technique where the whole body is used such as o goshi.

    Food for thought.

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Richard Riehle

    Posts : 79
    Join date : 2013-06-22
    Location : California

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Richard Riehle on Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:46 am

    Hanon wrote:Interesting.

    Foundations. To me the foundation lessons in a judokas life are paramount as to how that judoka will progress and grow. Just like any building?

    We are bipods. Standing on two feet is what we do best. We have difficulty in judo controlling our own bodies. Now we are asked or required to control the body of an uke while we, as a tori, maintain our own control. O goshi. In terms of tori both feet in shizenhontai, natural posture. Safe, no one legged requirements. O goshi in terms of being an uke is a safe way to practice yoko ukemi upon being slowly thrown.

    Westerners do not like bending their knees. O goshi requires that we bend our knees. What most novices will do is spread their legs to get lower, they will pull uke over and let him or her go. O goshi is a splendid base technique to teach tori control over his own body also learn to control the body of his uke and support his uke during the phase of kake.

    The kuzushi for o goshi is easier than most other waza, teach tori to pull uke just a tad onto his toes, not too much or uke will step forward. Teach tori to lower his COG so his obi is lower than that of uke.

    O goshi. Tori must learn early on not to 'walk the dog', by that I mean upon and after the phase of kake tori must keep his head up with straight back and not lean over his uke thus allowing uke to pull tori over and into ne waza or in terms of SD smack tori in mouth, ouch.

    o goshi is an excellent waza to teach novices the transition from tachi waza to ne waza. O goshi into juji gatame etc.

    ..............................

    Teaching is a vocation. I have never agreed that a teacher can be 'made', no amount of training can make a teacher. I am not suggesting for a moment that a teacher does not need training we do BUT if that gift of teaching is not present the training can only be robotic. A teacher has a burning desire to teach and is full of enthusiasm, those gifts-natural attributes are felt by the pupils.

    Being an Olympic champion is perhaps, though not always, the least important thing toward teaching a class. Every highly trained competitive judoka I know teaches their own techniques the way they have performed them to win THEIR championships. This is a massive mistake, but understandable.
    A teacher should teach the base technique, the foundation of the technique then have the capacity to walk around the class while they are practicing said technique and make adaptations to each tori to suit that specific toris body.

    The character of a teacher are his tools. That concept for me is a given. I wrote the character not the tokui waza. No professional teacher will teach the same, we all have different ways of holding a classes attention, of motivating a class, of getting that class to work together, to enjoy learning and want more etc.

    Being a dan rank has zero to do with being a teacher neither does being an Olympian or world champion. Being experienced in shiai via championships is a must but THE key is that spark that makes a teacher a teacher, that cannot be taught nor given.

    One more note. In the West we are not Japanese and though Judo is Japanese we cannot emulate the philosophy or character of the Japanese, to that end we have to teach the way we learn best in the West and that is not always the way teachers teach when in Japan.

    Tsuri komi goshi is a complex technique for a novice. Though tsuri and komi are vital aspects to learn and become proficient at I suggest that this is a stage to far for the novice at least in the Western world where we don't have such control over our hara nor hips nor bend our knees.

    .............................

    Ashi waza such as tsuri komi ashi or de ashi braai appear simple leg trips and that is the mistake a novice will make with them. IN randori they are among the most difficult waza to execute unless one has that gift... These ashi waza are also not suited to the mind set of the Westerner as they appear simple and quick also small techniques. In learning these waza too early the novice may-will become dependent on trying these waza and we all know what its like to be a foot ball! I respectfully suggest before those waza are taught it maybe wiser to teach a larger technique where the whole body is used such as o goshi.

    Food for thought.

    Mike  



    Good post and good advice, Mike.

    Sadly, I still see instructors who do not understand the importance of kuzushi when teaching o-goshi.

    As to ashi-waza. I was fortunate to have a early instructor who understood ashi-waza well. I think the novice can learn the ashi-waza techniques, but not when they are taught in a cursory manner. You are correct that the harai version of ashi-waza is difficult for most beginners, but some take to it quickly. That presents another important issue the teacher must consider; is the student ready for this lesson? Some students take a long time to arrive at a modest level of skill in any technique. Others learn everything faster than one might expect. I try not to hold-back a student who is ready for the next level of instruction, but often, a student who is not ready wants the same lesson. We need to be strict about how we assess ability and use good judgment in using that assessment.


    avatar
    Jihef

    Posts : 176
    Join date : 2013-09-06
    Location : Brussels, Belgium

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Jihef on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:36 am

    Interesting thread. Makes me miss the "good old" JudoForum some more.  Sad 

    Thanks to CK, jkw, Richard Riehle and Mike for the reflections so far.

    Richard Riehle

    Posts : 79
    Join date : 2013-06-22
    Location : California

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Richard Riehle on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:59 am

    Jihef wrote:Interesting thread. Makes me miss the "good old" JudoForum some more.  Sad 

    Thanks to CK, jkw, Richard Riehle and Mike for the reflections so far.


    Yes. Maybe some of the old-timers will return. I suspect some of them do not know that the old JudoForum is now defunct, and that this forum has replaced it. It is still hard to believe that the current owners of the JudoForum have so quickly destroyed the usefulness of that previously excellent forum.


    jkw

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-01-04

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by jkw on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:06 am

    Hanon wrote:
    One more note. In the West we are not Japanese and though Judo is Japanese we cannot emulate the philosophy or character of the Japanese, to that end we have to teach the way we learn best in the West and that is not always the way teachers teach when in Japan.

    This is an interesting concept. I learnt the fundamentals of my judo primarily under two Japanese sensei, both teaching in a Western context, although both quite different in age, temperament and experience.

    If I'm asked to teach something, or am responsible for training, I feel an obligation to pass on judo as it was passed to me. This I would say means replicating the training context I experienced, but with two caveats: I try to omit most of the brutality of my early training (which definitely doesn't wash in a Western context), and I try to be less dogmatic about technical precision and more focused on principles (which I learnt from my second sensei).

    But beyond these two things, I'm unsure how to adapt any further to teach the way "we" learn best in the West. Perhaps more o-goshi is a start?
    avatar
    Ricebale

    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:13 am

    jkw wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    One more note. In the West we are not Japanese and though Judo is Japanese we cannot emulate the philosophy or character of the Japanese, to that end we have to teach the way we learn best in the West and that is not always the way teachers teach when in Japan.

    This is an interesting concept. I learnt the fundamentals of my judo primarily under two Japanese sensei, both teaching in a Western context, although both quite different in age, temperament and experience.

    If I'm asked to teach something, or am responsible for training, I feel an obligation to pass on judo as it was passed to me. This I would say means replicating the training context I experienced, but with two caveats: I try to omit most of the brutality of my early training (which definitely doesn't wash in a Western context), and I try to be less dogmatic about technical precision and more focused on principles (which I learnt from my second sensei).

    But beyond these two things, I'm unsure how to adapt any further to teach the way "we" learn best in the West. Perhaps more o-goshi is a start?

    One very large issue with western judo is how belt grades are handled up to shodan.

    I have interacted with quite a few shodans who were Japanese and their experience is very different from what we get here. This goes all the way down to syllabus.

    Replication of a foriegn culture I think to a large degree is redundant however cute or quirky it may be, however adoption of training methods has merit. It's seperating the two which is the hard part.

    jkw

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-01-04

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by jkw on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:26 am

    Ricebale wrote:Replication of a foriegn culture I think to a large degree is redundant however cute or quirky it may be, however adoption of training methods has merit. It's seperating the two which is the hard part.

    It's hard to know exactly what you are referring to here.

    I would insist on good reigi, which is a bit like health & safety, and also Japanese terminology for techniques, then other values such as no chit-chat, no wandering on and off the matt (except to throw up, or for an injury), getting up quickly if you are thrown, etc... which are almost universal to judo I would have thought.

    Could you explain a bit more what you mean by replication of a foreign culture? I don't think I understand.
    avatar
    Ricebale

    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:51 pm

    Trying to out Japanese the Japanese is a disease most frequent is what I here meant
    avatar
    Q mystic

    Posts : 319
    Join date : 2013-02-10

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Q mystic on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:43 am

    Ricebale wrote:Trying to out Japanese the Japanese is a disease most frequent is what I here meant

    exactly. lol! 


    _________________
    Judo should adopt Sambo shorts to keep low attacks clean.
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:07 am

    I have major heartburn over the "throw/technique" requirements for promotion in Judo. It is a pedagogical disaster, and doesn't really make sense in terms of how kids develop physically, mentally, emotionally. Nor is it ideal for adults in different stage of life, different learning styles, etc.

    There are underlying fundamental body skills/coordination and for want of a better word, "attitudes" that students need to learn/absorb before attempting to learn a lot of throws or katamewaza.





    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by BillC on Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:34 pm

    Ricebale wrote:Trying to out Japanese the Japanese is a disease most frequent is what I here meant

    And what some people don't know ... they will make up.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:57 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:Trying to out Japanese the Japanese is a disease most frequent is what I here meant

    And what some people don't know ... they will make up.

    I've seen that. It would be funny if not so..sad.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Number of techniques versus proficiency for beginners

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:13 am