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    Who was Inoye Kishoku

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    finarashi

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    Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by finarashi on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:50 pm



    H. Irving Hancock is responsible to series of earliest jiu-jitsu books before 1910 that maybe are still the most printed ones. These books have been translated to at least; French, Finnish, German, Italian, Polish, Portuguese, Swedish. he knew the markets and advertized one of his books with the fame of Judo "The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu - Jiudo - The Official Jiu-Jitsu Of The Japanese Government - With Additions By Hoshino And Tsutsumi And Chapters On The Serious And Fatal Blows And On Kuatsu The Japanese Science Of The Restoration Of Life" He also acted as promotor of several japanese jiu-jitsu wrestrels and arranged professional fights for them. One of these is Katsukuma Higashi.
    http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_edgren1_0300.htm

    In his book "Japanese physical training : the system of exercise, diet, and general mode of living that has made the Mikado's people the healthiest, strongest, and happiest men and women in the world" By Hancock, Harrie Irving (1868 - 1922), New York, United States, G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1903 1904[2] 1905[8], 156p he states of himself "Something more than seven years ago he (I) began his course of instruction in jiu-jitsu under Japanese friends in this country. Subsequently he studied in Nagasaki,, under Inoye San, instructor of jiu-jitsu in the police department of that city. Still later the author took supplementary courses under native teachers in Yokohama and Tokio. When Inoye San visited this country the author went once more under the tuition of that veteran who is considered to be one of the best instructors in Japan."


    We have also Risher W. Thornberry who wrote several books and was one of the jiu-jitsu (combat) instructors of Americans during WWI.
    http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_henderson_0600.htm
    One of his jiu-jitsu books was "Jiu-Jitsu As Taught by Kishoku Inouye" By Thornberry, Risher W., Yokohama, Japan, Box of Curios Printing & Publishing Co., 1905. Thornberry wrote several books on jujitsu from 1905 to 1933.
    The book alledgedly shows a picture of Prof. Kishoku Inouye, "Instructor to the Nagasaki Police".

    But what do we know of Inoye Kishoku?


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:25 pm

    These things are always difficult to investigate and verify due to the lack of the proper writing of the name in Japanese kanji. Likely the proper Hepburn transcription of the name would be Inoue.

    There is some stuff about Hancock here, but not entirely relevant to your question:

    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A07EED71339E333A2575AC2A96E9C946297D6CF
    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C06EED71130E233A2575BC1A9609C946597D6CF
    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9B05E4D8153FE433A25752C3A9669D946197D6CF

    There are nowhere details on how the man's name is written. One would need to consult local Japanese sources from that time or a local Japanese budo history book. As with so many things in budo, most of the stuff on the Internet is one populist sources copying from the other but none having the training and making the effort to examine primary sources. It's not possible without Japanese skills and willing to put in the time and effort. It's not easy. Some of the Internet sources link Inoue with Tenjin Shin'ô-ryû but it's as reliable as nothing as this is a predictable guess.

    I was hoping that this diploma issued in 1900 in Nagasaki to C. John O'Brien would clarify one and another as he too appears to have a been a student their of this Inoue Kishoku.



    Unfortunately, Inoue himself is not mentioned in the document which appears instead signed by a certain 増永洋吉, that's Masunaga Yôkichi.


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    finarashi

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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by finarashi on Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:08 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:These things ... There are nowhere details on how the man's name is written. One would need to consult local Japanese sources from that time or a local Japanese budo history book. As with so many things in budo, most of the stuff on the Internet is one populist sources copying from the other but none having the training and making the effort to examine primary sources. It's not possible without Japanese skills and willing to put in the time and effort. It's not easy. Some of the Internet sources link Inoue with Tenjin Shin'ô-ryû but it's as reliable as nothing as this is a predictable guess.

    I was hoping that this diploma issued in 1900 in Nagasaki to C. John O'Brien would clarify one and another as he too appears to have a been a student their of this Inoue Kishoku.


    Unfortunately, Inoue himself is not mentioned in the document which appears instead signed by a certain 増永洋吉, that's Masunaga Yôkichi.
    What style was the diploma? What was the diploma for?


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    Reinberger

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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by Reinberger on Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:38 am

    Inoue Kishoku, it seems, was a very illustrious Jiu-Jitsu teacher back then. He taught at the Tenyokwan in No. 41, Motoshikkui-machi, Nagasaki.

    His students include John J. O'Brien, the first JJ-instructor to Pres. Roosevelt, before Yamashita came to the US. Here is a link to O'Brien's book, together with some details about this relationship: O'Brien's book

    It was also J. J. O'Brien, who brought Inoue to the U.S. in 1900. Several newspaper-articles document Inoue's activities there. One from October 1901 suggests, that Inoue was there, either still or again, more than one year after his arrival.

    As was mentioned already, Inoue also taught Harrie Irving Hancock and Risher W. Thornberry. And then there is "Yaekichi Yabe". In 1904, in his free lesson-booklet, with which he advertised his 5-volume course of "The Yabe School of Jiu-Jitsu", Yaekichi Yabe described himself as "formerly of the Ten Shin Ryu School", and wrote : "The course consists of ninety-five illustrated lessons fully covering every phase of Jiu-Jitsu as taught in the Ten-Shin Ryu School of Japan."

    Here is a photo of an arm-lock technique by Inoue. The second picture shows, what "Yabe" made of it:


    And look at this detail coming from a photo, taken at a KuK Austrian warship in 1910 (yes, Austria-Hungary extended to the Mediterranean Sea, therefore we had a navy, until the end of WWI):
    "In Nagasaki, a Jiu-Jitsu-teacher came aboard, who instructed the sailors in this Japanese sport of defense." Do you recognize this "Jiu-Jitsu teacher"? I think, it's clearly him.
    Some years ago, we had a thread about Inoue and his Tenshin-ryū at e-budo http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?37111-Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu-Tenshin-Ryu , but we were not able to definitely trace the roots of this formerly prominent style. My guess is still an origin from Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū.


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    NBK

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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by NBK on Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:16 am

    $3000 for O'brien's book? Deranged...
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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by Reinberger on Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:35 am

    NBK wrote:$3000 for O'brien's book?  Deranged...
    That's probably the reason, why this book obviously couldn't be sold for years. I found the link in 2010 ...

    I think the cause for the high price isn't the book itself, but the former owner of this specific copy. Dr. William Sturgis Bigelow was a personal acquaintance (or even a good friend) of both, Roosevelt and O'Brien. And, of course, that visitor card of the White House signed by the President, together with that personal letter from Theodore Roosevelt.


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    NBK

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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by NBK on Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:56 pm

    Reinberger wrote:
    NBK wrote:$3000 for O'brien's book?  Deranged...
    That's probably the reason, why this book obviously couldn't be sold for years. I found the link in 2010 ...

    I think the cause for the high price isn't the book itself, but the former owner of this specific copy. Dr. William Sturgis Bigelow was a personal acquaintance (or even a good friend) of both, Roosevelt and O'Brien. And, of course, that visitor card of the White House signed by the President, together with that personal letter from Theodore Roosevelt.
    No, you're right, all that is cool, but the question is whether it is cool enough to be cool for a collector who wants to pay $50 for a book and $2950 for a card from Teddie Roosevelt and someone no one has ever heard of.

    Some collectors love that stuff, but this is a pretty eclectic combination - they gotta hope that Bill Gates gets a sudden interest in hand-to-hand / TR / something.... I think, unlikely.

    Anyhow, an interesting find! Hopefully someone will spread a bit of it around someday.

    NBK
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    NBK

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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by NBK on Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:10 pm

    Here's a website where the author asks what I myself wonder - are Inoue Kishoku and Inoue Keitaro the same person? Inoue Keitaro was a police jujutsu instructor, had a Tenjin Shin'yo dojo, etc.
    http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~wwd/PW100515/
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:27 pm

    NBK wrote:Here's a website where the author asks what I myself wonder - are Inoue Kishoku and Inoue Keitaro the same person?  Inoue Keitaro was a police jujutsu instructor, had a Tenjin Shin'yo dojo, etc.
    http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~wwd/PW100515/

    I find that hard to believe. The link just provides a descriptive compilation of sections with no real analysis. Inoue Keitarô, to the best of my knowledge, was not active in Nagasaki, but in Tôkyô and Ôsaka. I have a keizu from 1894 describing his genealogy. Besides, there is no way that the kanji for Keitarô 敬太郎 can possibly be misread as "Kishoku". Did he undergo a name change like so many did (for example Saigô Shirô or Tomita Tsuneo) ?  I would like to see some evidence of that. Inoue taught several of the Kôdôkan great (Yokoyama, Saigô, and Kanô) as well as TSYR greats (Miyamoto Hanzō and Tobari Takisaburō, Miyake Tarō). [Reference, see Tōdō 2007, p. 90]

    Inoue was nstructor at the Gakushūin between April 1883–March, 1886, and thus clearly was in Tôkyô during that time. Kanô was a student of Inoue for 5 years, which also is time that he must have been in Tôkyô although those 5 years likely overlapped with some of the other time windows.

    Inoue Keitarō was the jūjutsu chief-instructor at Tōkyō Imperial University of the Hobunkan-dôjô [ref.: Bennett 2009, p. 167], and later became a Kôdôkan 8th dan. That's Tôkyô too, not Nagasaki.

    One should distiguish between possibly some of the pictures now circulating as depicting "Inoue K." (not necessarily "Inoue Kishoku" in reality depicting Inoue Keitarô, and the two being the same person. If someone circulates a pic of you and erroneously labels it as me, this is not the same as me and you being the same person.


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    NBK

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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by NBK on Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:37 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NBK wrote:Here's a website where the author asks what I myself wonder - are Inoue Kishoku and Inoue Keitaro the same person?  Inoue Keitaro was a police jujutsu instructor, had a Tenjin Shin'yo dojo, etc.
    http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~wwd/PW100515/

    I find that hard to believe. The link just provides a descriptive compilation of sections with no real analysis. Inoue Keitarô, to the best of my knowledge, was not active in Nagasaki, but in Tôkyô and Ôsaka. I have a keizu from 1894 describing his genealogy. Besides, there is no way that the kanji for Keitarô 敬太郎 can possibly be misread as "Kishoku". Did he undergo a name change like so many did (for example Saigô Shirô or Tomita Tsuneo) ?  I would like to see some evidence of that. Inoue taught several of the Kôdôkan great (Yokoyama, Saigô, and Kanô) as well as TSYR greats (Miyamoto Hanzō and Tobari Takisaburō, Miyake Tarō). [Reference, see Tōdō 2007, p. 90]

    Inoue was nstructor at the Gakushūin between April 1883–March, 1886, and thus clearly was in Tôkyô during that time. Kanô was a student of Inoue for 5 years, which also is time that he must have been in Tôkyô although those 5 years likely overlapped with some of the other time windows.

    Inoue Keitarō was the jūjutsu chief-instructor at Tōkyō Imperial University of the Hobunkan-dôjô [ref.: Bennett 2009, p. 167], and later became a Kôdôkan 8th dan. That's Tôkyô too, not Nagasaki.

    One should distiguish between possibly some of the pictures now circulating as depicting "Inoue K." (not necessarily "Inoue Kishoku" in reality depicting Inoue Keitarô, and the two being the same person. If someone circulates a pic of you and erroneously labels it as me, this is not the same as me and you being the same person.
    The name doesn't make much sense, does it? But note that others in Japan have wondered who Inoue Kishoku might be.

    On the other side of the discussion I think there are brief descriptions from foreigners that 'X' was an instructor at some place, but the reality might be that 'X sensei' might have simply visited that place, not lived long term, thus making it harder to understand who is who.

    One source is the regional judo histories - sometimes recount the histories of the major jujutsu proponents in the earliest days of the Kodokan, before they were absorbed into the Kodokan. Not sure which one to start with, but could be useful.
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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by Reinberger on Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:55 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:[ ... One should distiguish between possibly some of the pictures now circulating as depicting "Inoue K." (not necessarily "Inoue Kishoku" in reality depicting Inoue Keitarô, and the two being the same person. If someone circulates a pic of you and erroneously labels it as me, this is not the same as me and you being the same person.
    CK, does your comment include pictures 1, 2 and 4 in my post above? Do you mean it's Inoue Keitarō, who is depicted there?


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    Re: Who was Inoye Kishoku

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:00 pm

    Reinberger wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:[ ... One should distiguish between possibly some of the pictures now circulating as depicting "Inoue K." (not necessarily "Inoue Kishoku" in reality depicting Inoue Keitarô, and the two being the same person. If someone circulates a pic of you and erroneously labels it as me, this is not the same as me and you being the same person.
    CK, does your comment include pictures 1, 2 and 4 in my post above? Do you mean it's Inoue Keitarō, who is depicted there?

    Probably in the interest of the openness of the debate readers will probably first want to see a crisp picture of Inoue Keitarô, and they aren't exactly abundant and I don't have access to my library now.


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