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    NBK

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    Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:10 am

    I've found reference to a branch of the Kodokan that opened in Korea in Nov 1917 with its director 篠田治作 Shinoda (Jisaku?). Can't found anything about him. It seems that Kano shihan attended the opening, but there are references that cite that as happening in 1918.

    I also seem to have multiple transliterations (but may be confusing two separate dojo). I am hopeless at Korean in Hangul. (or romaji, or whatever the Koreans call the Western alphabet).

    One seems to be Gangdogwan (Kôdôkan) 강도관

    Another is Dong-gyeong Gangdo-gwan (translated as the Tokyo Hall of Strengthening the Way, which could be bad English for 'Hall for Teaching the Way').

    Is there anyone that reads Korean well enough to confirm any of this? Are they the same thing?

    Thanks,

    NBK

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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:52 am

    Send it to me. I know some folks who have the necessary Korean language skills.


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    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:36 am

    Jonesy wrote:Send it to me.  I know some folks who have the necessary Korean language skills.
    Thank you, but actually, that's all I have. The Hangul for the latter was not included. I can't even figure out the Korean word for 'Tokyo' - but maybe there isn't a different one.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:30 am

    NBK wrote:I've found reference to a branch of the Kodokan that opened in Korea in Nov 1917 with its director 篠田治作 Shinoda (Jisaku?).  Can't found anything about him.   It seems that Kano shihan attended the opening, but there are references that cite that as happening in 1918.  

    I also seem to have multiple transliterations (but may be confusing two separate dojo).  I am hopeless at Korean in Hangul.  (or romaji, or whatever the Koreans call the Western alphabet).  

    One seems to be Gangdogwan (Kôdôkan)  강도관

    Another is Dong-gyeong Gangdo-gwan (translated as the Tokyo Hall of Strengthening the Way, which could be bad English for 'Hall for Teaching the Way').  

    Is there anyone that reads Korean well enough to confirm any of this?  Are they the same thing?  

    Thanks,

    NBK


    This seems like a Jon Z question to me. He has the scholarly experience and know-how and understanding of both Korean and Japanese, I believe, to find those responses in an effective way. I can't help you as unfortunately I have no understanding of Korean whatsoever. Gangnam style and maechunbu are the only Korean words I know.


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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by David Waterhouse on Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:11 am


    The Korean sound system is more complicated than that of Japanese, but follows regular rules. One thing to bear in mind is that in the pronunciation of Korean words there are automatic sound changes: so that the river whose name is spelled Aplok, for example, comes out as “Amnok”. Some 80% of Korean vocabulary consists of Chinese loan words to which Sino-Korean readings are applied (as with Japanese on readings); it follows that Japanese words which derive from Chinese can easily be read as Korean, if one knows the characters used to write them. Thus Tōkyō 東京, literally “Eastern Capital”, becomes Tongkyǒng 동경 (which was also an old name for the Korean city of Kyǒngju); and Kōdōkan 講道館, literally “Hall for Expounding the Path”, becomes Kangdogwan 강도관. On the other hand, the technique names of jūdō 柔道 (Kor. yudo), which in Japan are written with Chinese characters but pronounced as Japanese words, are assigned new Korean names.

    So long as one uses hangul, plus Chinese characters when necessary, no problem arises: the Korean alphabet, its letters arranged to form syllable blocks, was a brilliant invention which suits the language admirably. For writing Korean in Roman script (romaja), much the best system is the McCune-Reischauer, as followed by most serious writers on Korean topics; but there are several competing systems, which are a continuing source of confusion for foreigners. One of the best Korean-English dictionaries was edited by Samuel E. Martin and his associates in 1967, but uses a system of romanisation which is peculiar to Yale University, and has not caught on elsewhere. Some years ago the South Korean government approved for tourism a grotesquely ugly system of romanisation, which seems to be influenced by the old French romanisation of Chinese, and has unfortunately been adopted by several museums outside Korea. It uses voiced initial consonants, even when they are not pronounced as voiced; and it uses vowel clusters, in order to avoid diacritics: hence your example “Dong-gyeong” (for Tongkyǒng). Needless to say, yet another system of romanisation is used in North Korea.

    I have a limited ability to read Korean, but I happen to have in my personal library two books on the history of Korean jūdō. One of these is Yi Hang-nae 李學來, Hanʼguk yudo paltal sa 韓國柔道發逹史 (Sŏul Tʻŭkpyŏlsi: Pogyŏng Munhwasa, 1990), and it is particularly well-informed. As you may know, a pioneer of jūdō in Korea was Uchida Ryōhei 内田良平 (1874-1937), who went there in 1906 in the entourage of Itō Hirobumi. Uchida’s jūdō seems to have been unorthodox, something of a cloud hangs over his head for other reasons. Including Uchida’s dōjō, between 1906 and 1910 some ten jūdō clubs were formed in Korea (Yi, p. 47, lists them), connected above all with the Y.M.C.A. or the police. Another early Japanese teacher was Kimotsukushi Munetsugu 奇付宗次, a Kōdōkan yondan; and the names are recorded of eight Koreans who were enrolled at the Kōdōkan between 1901 and 1903 (Yi, p. 37). From the little I have read, it seems that none of these early clubs was affiliated officially with the Kōdōkan.

    In 1918, however, the Chinmuhwi 振武會 (진무회), an organisation set up in 1916 with young dan holders, was inaugurated as the Korean branch of the Kōdōkan (講道館朝鮮支部). According to Kanō Sensei Denki Hensankai 嘉納先生伝記編纂会, ed., Kanō Jigorō 嘉納治五郎 (Tōkyō: Kōdōkan, 1977), p. 697, the visit to Korea by Kanō Jigorō to which you refer took place in October 1918; and a note in Matsumoto Yoshizō 松本芳三, ed., (Shashin zusetsu) Jūdō hyakunen no rekishi (写真図説) 柔道百年の歴史 (Tōkyō: Kōdansha, 1970), p. 273, adds that Kanō was present at this ceremony in Keijō 京城 (i.e. Sǒul) on the 6th of the month. I have not found any mention of Shinoda Jisaku: what is your source?

    I can add another detail which has been overlooked. It happens that in 1918 a younger cousin, Kanō Tokutarō 嘉納徳太郎, was Deputy Governor of the Bank of Chōsen (created in 1909). Tokutarō had been closely involved in the affairs of the Kōdōkan since its earliest days, as himself a jūdōka and in a senior administrative capacity; as well as in other educational endeavours of Kanō Jigorō. In the photograph I have of him, in an album entitled Pictorial Chosen and Manchuria: Compiled in Commemoration of the Decennial of the Bank of Chosen (Seoul, October 1919), p. 46, he looks both able and energetic, and bears a strong family resemblance to his cousin. It is reasonable to assume that he too would have been present on this occasion, and probably played an active part behind the scenes. Photographs of the Bank’s headquarters show an imposing stone structure, with four corner towers and a galleried banking hall.

    I hope that the above goes some way towards answering your questions.

    David Waterhouse
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    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:58 am

    David Waterhouse wrote:
    The Korean sound system is more complicated than that of Japanese, but follows regular rules.

    I have a limited ability to read Korean, but I happen to have in my personal library two books on the history of Korean jūdō. One of these is Yi Hang-nae 李學來, Hanʼguk yudo paltal sa 韓國柔道發逹史 (Sŏul Tʻŭkpyŏlsi: Pogyŏng Munhwasa, 1990), and it is particularly well-informed. As you may know, a pioneer of jūdō in Korea was Uchida Ryōhei 内田良平 (1874-1937), who went there in 1906 in the entourage of Itō Hirobumi. Uchida’s jūdō seems to have been unorthodox, something of a cloud hangs over his head for other reasons. Including Uchida’s dōjō, between 1906 and 1910 some ten jūdō clubs were formed in Korea (Yi, p. 47, lists them), connected above all with the Y.M.C.A. or the police. Another early Japanese teacher was Kimotsukushi Munetsugu 奇付宗次, a Kōdōkan yondan; and the names are recorded of eight Koreans who were enrolled at the Kōdōkan between 1901 and 1903 (Yi, p. 37). From the little I have read, it seems that none of these early clubs was affiliated officially with the Kōdōkan.

    In 1918, however, the Chinmuhwi 振武會 (진무회), an organisation set up in 1916 with young dan holders, was inaugurated as the Korean branch of the Kōdōkan (講道館朝鮮支部). According to Kanō Sensei Denki Hensankai 嘉納先生伝記編纂会, ed., Kanō Jigorō 嘉納治五郎 (Tōkyō: Kōdōkan, 1977), p. 697, the visit to Korea by Kanō Jigorō to which you refer took place in October 1918; and a note in Matsumoto Yoshizō 松本芳三, ed., (Shashin zusetsu) Jūdō hyakunen no rekishi (写真図説) 柔道百年の歴史 (Tōkyō: Kōdansha, 1970), p. 273, adds that Kanō was present at this ceremony in Keijō 京城 (i.e. Sǒul) on the 6th of the month. I have not found any mention of Shinoda Jisaku: what is your source?

    I can add another detail which has been overlooked. It happens that in 1918 a younger cousin, Kanō Tokutarō 嘉納徳太郎, was Deputy Governor of the Bank of Chōsen (created in 1909). Tokutarō had been closely involved in the affairs of the Kōdōkan since its earliest days, as himself a jūdōka and in a senior administrative capacity; as well as in other educational endeavours of Kanō Jigorō. In the photograph I have of him, in an album entitled Pictorial Chosen and Manchuria: Compiled in Commemoration of the Decennial of the Bank of Chosen (Seoul, October 1919), p. 46, he looks both able and energetic, and bears a strong family resemblance to his cousin. It is reasonable to assume that he too would have been present on this occasion, and probably played an active part behind the scenes. Photographs of the Bank’s headquarters show an imposing stone structure, with four corner towers and a galleried banking hall.

    I hope that the above goes some way towards answering your questions.

    David Waterhouse
    Nice recap, thanks. I know the academic drill on Korean pronunciation, but it still doesn't help me.  Crying or Very sad 

    But, you confirm that's the 'Tokyo Kodokan', that's good!

    I found Shinoda's name on this French pg on Japanese schools under Japanese occupation, and thought I puzzled out 'Kodokan'. There're a couple of other apparently Japanese names, but no one jumps out.
    http://www.munmu.fr/pages/histoire/histoire-et-histoires/les-ecoles-japonaises-en-coree-durant-l-occupation.html
    That in turn appears to be a translation of at least part of this pg in Korean:
    http://martial-arts.tistory.com/category/?page=63

    I knew of Kano's young cousin, thanks. It seems he ended his career in Hokkaido? After that, I can't find reference to him.

    Thanks much!

    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by David Waterhouse on Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:00 am

    You don’t explain why you are interested in these names. If you simply want to read what’s on the French web-site as McCune-Reischauer, start from the hangul and ignore the weird romanisation which is provided. Who is Dr. Heo 허 anyway? I see that the title which David Constant translates as “Directeur” is kwanrija 관리자, i.e. 管理者, which might more accurately be rendered as “manager”. And the names in the table seem to refer to 1934, rather than “Année d’ouverture”.

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    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:03 pm

    Why am I interested in those names?  I'm not sure I understand the question.  Why would I not be interested?  And thanks, I missed the part about referring to 1934, not the opening date.  I also know a bit about Kano's young cousin, but your info adds to his info.

    I'm interested in who these people were, instructors and students alike, and what motivated then.    I found a hint that one of the instructors might have been a Japanese policeman, which sounds weird if you don't know that the colony of Korea had lots of Japanese policemen.  Who were the others?    Were they there as Kodokan policy?  Did local Korean interest pull them there?  Were they just businessmen, judo fans looking for a workout?  Or hardcore, profession judoka?  Were their students mostly Japanese colonialists' children, or mostly Korean? And why would the latter practice judo?  

    But my understanding of Korean is inadequate, so I thought I would ask.   And your info has been useful, thanks, and any more would be welcome.    

    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by David Waterhouse on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:08 am

    The history of jūdō in Japanese-occupied Korea is indeed an interesting topic; but it is hard to dig up the appropriate information, and hard to tell the story dispassionately. Korean sources are liable to give it an anti-Japanese slant, while Japanese sources are not as forthcoming as one would like. Nevertheless I believe there is relevant information to be found: though I myself have not delved far into the subject, nor even read widely about the Japanese occupation.

    Since you are apparently based in Tōkyō, and would have access to the Kōdōkan library, I recommend that you consult certain items there, namely:

    最近朝鮮事情要覧 (1918)
    国民学校体錬科教授要項並実施細目(1944)
    中央及道府縣・朝鮮・臺灣教化聯合團體要覧 昭和10年 (1935)
    講道館朝鮮支部紀要 昭和12年 (1937)
    講道館朝鮮支部紀要 昭和14年 (1939)
    講道館朝鮮支部紀要 昭和16年 (1941)
    講道館朝鮮支部紀要 昭和17年 (1942)
    講道館朝鮮支部紀要 昭和16年 (1943)

    I have myself spent some time in the Kōdōkan library, but do not think I looked at the 1918 or 1944 volumes, which were official publications edited and published by the Chōsen Sōtokufu 朝鮮総督府. However, many years ago I did examine the five volumes of reports from the Kōdōkan Chōsen Shibu (1937-43). As I recall, they include the names of many jūdōka, more than enough to keep you busy. You may even find your Shinoda Jisaku. The names are Korean or Japanese, and it is hard to be sure that the latter were all of Japanese individuals: as you will be aware, Koreans in Japan have often taken Japanese names. At the very least, however, these volumes should give you some figures for membership.

    Like you, I imagine that club members would have included Japanese businessmen and officials and their sons, plus native Koreans; perhaps even a few ladies. It does not surprise me that instructors at the Kōdōkan Chōsen Shibu, or at other jūdō clubs in Japanese Korea, would sometimes have been policemen. According to the 1919 picture book which I mentioned in my previous note, the total police force, under an older system then in course of being reformed, “consisted of about 5,600 policemen, of whom 3,300 were Koreans, and 8,400 gendarmes, of whom 4,600 were Koreans” (p. 135). For defence, there were two divisions of the Japanese army, plus a naval detachment; and Koreans at the time were not conscripted, though there was a volunteer native infantry battalion and a company of cavalry. “Some Koreans however are officers in the Japanese Army, and are generally spoken of in very high terms” (p. 141). Happy days!

    More generally, the early history of jūdō in Korea has to be seen in light of Japanese colonial policies regarding education: and I suggest that you look into this. And then, for comparison, there is the history of jūdō in Japanese-occupied Taiwan and Manchuria…

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    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:15 pm

    aaargh!!!! just lost an email I spent 20 min typing.

    short version - thank you for the input.

    yes, this is an emotional topic for many people.

    I will be at the Kodokan to check out some of these - I have some versions of the 1944 doc but from the Ministry of Education - it will be interesting to see if they differ.

    Thank you again,

    NBK
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    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:16 pm

    David Waterhouse wrote:............... However, many years ago I did examine the five volumes of reports from the Kōdōkan Chōsen Shibu (1937-43). As I recall, they include the names of many jūdōka, more than enough to keep you busy. You may even find your Shinoda Jisaku. The names are Korean or Japanese, and it is hard to be sure that the latter were all of Japanese individuals: as you will be aware, Koreans in Japan have often taken Japanese names. At the very least, however, these volumes should give you some figures for membership.

    Like you, I imagine that club members would have included Japanese businessmen and officials and their sons, plus native Koreans; perhaps even a few ladies. It does not surprise me that instructors at the Kōdōkan Chōsen Shibu, or at other jūdō clubs in Japanese Korea, would sometimes have been policemen. According to the 1919 picture book which I mentioned in my previous note, the total police force, under an older system then in course of being reformed, “consisted of about 5,600 policemen, of whom 3,300 were Koreans, and 8,400 gendarmes, of whom 4,600 were Koreans” (p. 135). For defence, there were two divisions of the Japanese army, plus a naval detachment; and Koreans at the time were not conscripted, though there was a volunteer native infantry battalion and a company of cavalry. “Some Koreans however are officers in the Japanese Army, and are generally spoken of in very high terms” (p. 141). Happy days!

    ......
    David Waterhouse
    Thanks again, professor.

    I took a quick look at the Korean branch histories, and not surprisingly, you're right - page after page of name, organized under branches and local clubs. Tons of police, police dojo etc., from Seoul outward. I will have to dive back in to see if there is anything of more use, but apparently the Korean branch was following Kano shihan's custom of printing the names of all yudansha annually.

    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by David Waterhouse on Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:43 pm

    I’m glad you were able to consult the Kōdōkan Chōsen Shibu reports. I have wondered as well about the rôle of jūdō in Japanese-occupied Taiwan, and whether it had any influence on developments there in shuai jiao 摔角: which in its modern form superficially resembles jūdō.

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    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:23 am

    I only know a bit about shuai jiao; there appears to be no historic influence, but I can't imagine that there isn't any more modern influence.  

    I have researched some aspects of Japanese martial arts in Taiwan - there have been a couple of good papers (in Chinese) that are more 'detached', shall we say, than the more numerous Korean papers.

    Somewhere or another I wrote a bit on the Taiwanese police; I interviewed their head judo instructor and dredged up some facts to horse trade with a gent that researches Chinese martial arts. Their judo program stems directly from their experience as part of the Empire for 50 years.

    The Taiwanese miltary is very different. Their martial arts have a completely different origin, very distinct.  

    NBK


    Last edited by NBK on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:30 am

    PS - I spent a wk in Taipei a couple of yrs ago during which I spent hours looking for a shuai jiao dojo - what I was told was there's very little of it, almost none in all of Taiwan, it's mostly a mainland art.

    Meanwhile, I found a couple of judo dojo in Taipei without really trying.

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by David Waterhouse on Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:46 am

    Thank you for this interesting information about Taiwan. The real history of shuai jiao seems elusive, as with so many other Chinese martial arts.

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    NBK

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    Re: Kodokan branch Korea

    Post by NBK on Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:53 am

    I think either Martial Arts Planet or E-budo has a section on shuai jiao history.

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