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    Cichorei Kano

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    Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:04 am

    The policy in our federation is:

    - Dan ranks are only awarded by a national jury; no individual sensei no matter how high his rank and extensive experience has the privilege to award dan-ranks just by himself outside of the formally scheduled national exams.
    - All dan ranks are awarded only after a formal skill evaluation on the tatami

    Recently we were told of a club where the sensei at the end of an ordinary work-out decided that several of his kids had done their best on the tatami so he decided to give them a black belt, including 10-year olds. These came thus after they previously held 1st kyû. "But", he said, these are "kids' black belts". When they move to the adult division they have to give up their black belt, be brown belts again, until they pass their formal exam for black belt.

    Never heard of anything similar, so the floor is open for discussion.


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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by afja_lm139 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:38 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:The policy in our federation is:

    - Dan ranks are only awarded by a national jury; no individual sensei no matter how high his rank and extensive experience has the privilege to award dan-ranks just by himself outside of the formally scheduled national exams.
    - All dan ranks are awarded only after a formal skill evaluation on the tatami

    Recently we were told of a club where the sensei at the end of an ordinary work-out decided that several of his kids had done their best on the tatami so he decided to give them a black belt, including 10-year olds. These came thus after they previously held 1st kyû. "But", he said, these are "kids' black belts". When they move to the adult division they have to give up their black belt, be brown belts again, until they pass their formal exam for black belt.

    Never heard of anything similar, so the floor is open for discussion.

    Glorious, think of the Congress awarding ranks?  Then the White House!!!!!  What is next?  Free tatami.   Smile

    JudoSensei

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by JudoSensei on Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:20 am

    The practice of junior black belts is common in karate and taekwondo, but not in judo. I assume these ranks would not be recognized by a national organization and would just be considered a dojo rank.

    However, I don't feel it is always necessary for a national jury to award shodan only during scheduled examinations. This may work fine in a small country, but not in a large one.

    jkw

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by jkw on Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:28 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:"But", he said, these are "kids' black belts". When they move to the adult division they have to give up their black belt, be brown belts again, until they pass their formal exam for black belt.

    One thought is that there are quite a number of scenarios where this will turn out poorly for the children.

    At best, I hope this is simply an aberrant event that will be sensitively addressed by the federation in order to avoid it being repeated/common. At any rate, 10 years old is very young to hold even ikkyu.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:13 am

    JudoSensei wrote:The practice of junior black belts is common in karate and taekwondo, but not in judo. I assume these ranks would not be recognized by a national organization and would just be considered a dojo rank.

    Correct. These ranks will not be recognized by the federation and they are not allowed to say/write/suggest that they hold shodan awarded by Federation X.



    JudoSensei wrote:However, I don't feel it is always necessary for a national jury to award shodan only during scheduled examinations. This may work fine in a small country, but not in a large one.

    Sure, in a relatively large country (of course, all countries are smaller than the US, unless one is talking about Russia, Canada or China), such as for example France, in that case I would have written regional/state jury, though in such cases exams for top ranks still held nationally.


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    finarashi

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by finarashi on Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:29 pm

    jkw wrote:

    One thought is that there are quite a number of scenarios where this will turn out poorly for the children.

    At best, I hope this is simply an aberrant event that will be sensitively addressed by the federation in order to avoid it being repeated/common. At any rate, 10 years old is very young to hold even ikkyu.
    You summed it up for me. I don't know any reason why this would be a positive development for the kids involved. +1


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    afja_lm139

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by afja_lm139 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:37 pm

    JudoSensei wrote:The practice of junior black belts is common in karate and taekwondo, but not in judo. I assume these ranks would not be recognized by a national organization and would just be considered a dojo rank.

    However, I don't feel it is always necessary for a national jury to award shodan only during scheduled examinations. This may work fine in a small country, but not in a large one.

    Hum, kohaku shiai was a neat way to earn rank back in the day. It did separate the men from the boys, so to speak. And, of course, the gals from the boys.  Cool 

    Judoman

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Judoman on Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:51 pm

    I would never award a black belt to anyone under 18. However, in my club I award club ranks. There are many instructors like me that find being part of the national governing bodies unnecessary and just let the skill speak for itself. More and more people are thinking like this and it is threatening to break the strangle hold the NGBs have had on judo for years.

    柔道

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by 柔道 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:34 pm

    I know of a large club, one of the largest in the States that has a brown belt wearing a black belt when he helps out with the kids class. When he attends senior classes/seminars he wears a brown belt. This club "black belt" is just to fool the parents into thinking their kids are being taught by a black belt. No shame in the head instructor there.

    medo

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by medo on Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:20 am

    Judoman wrote:I would never award a black belt to anyone under 18. However, in my club I award club ranks. There are many instructors like me that find being part of the national governing bodies unnecessary and just let the skill speak for itself. More and more people are thinking like this and it is threatening to break the strangle hold the NGBs have had on judo for years.


    Sorry does not always happen been to loads of independents who's Judo is poor, been to a few good ones but because they train their own and grade their own, impartiality is not present and you end up with grades that can not hold their grades against NGB grades due of lack of different training partners/contestants, but saying that you can now grade within your own club right up to 1st kyu through our NGB.

    In my experience its normally financial or ego that lead new clubs forming outside NGB's. Normally within a short period of time the individual becomes a higher grade than he/she would have achieved in the NGB and their Judo stagnates because they don't practice anymore as they tend to just teach what they learned from their first instructor, who may have been good or rubbish. The qualifications and improvements are no longer taken, do not need to be taken so you end up duping the future beginners and parents with b*****t.

    Hey but I guess your already a rokudan or you will be in a few years Laughing

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:17 pm

    Judoman wrote:I would never award a black belt to anyone under 18. However, in my club I award club ranks. There are many instructors like me that find being part of the national governing bodies unnecessary and just let the skill speak for itself. More and more people are thinking like this and it is threatening to break the strangle hold the NGBs have had on judo for years.

    Why would you adhere to an arbitrary age of 18 to award a black belts ? I was beating the seniors in the line-ups when I was 15, obtained all my shiai points and passed the same exams at age 16 before a national jury which all the seniors had to pass. What other values are you infusing in a shodan which is essentially a technical-competitive grade ? A shodan is not intended to suggest that one is a respected sensei, master, teacher, unbeatable expert, or Olympian, nor does it require you to be of an age you can legally drive a car by yourself, vote or decide on euthanasia.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:31 pm

    medo wrote:
    Judoman wrote:I would never award a black belt to anyone under 18. However, in my club I award club ranks. There are many instructors like me that find being part of the national governing bodies unnecessary and just let the skill speak for itself. More and more people are thinking like this and it is threatening to break the strangle hold the NGBs have had on judo for years.


    Sorry does not always happen been to loads of independents who's Judo is poor, been to a few good ones but because they train their own and grade their own, impartiality is not present and you end up with grades that can not hold their grades against NGB grades due of lack of different training partners/contestants, but saying that you can now grade within your own club right up to 1st kyu through our NGB.

    In my experience its normally financial or ego that lead new clubs forming outside NGB's. Normally within a short period of time the individual becomes a higher grade than he/she would have achieved in the NGB and their Judo stagnates because they don't practice anymore as they tend to just teach what they learned from their first instructor, who may have been good or rubbish. The qualifications and improvements are no longer taken, do not need to be taken so you end up duping the future beginners and parents with b*****t.

    Hey but I guess your already a rokudan or you will be in a few years Laughing

    While I echo many of your concerns, NGBs often aren't exactly tabula rasa either and many are corrupt and conduct totalitarian regimes in which arbitrarily screwing over people is the norm, hence the reason why schisms occurred. In terms of ego's many NGBs have leading people that would offer some very stiff competition to those found in non-NGBs. The reasons for schisms are varied, and most NGBs are themselves the result of schisms or mergers, so it isn't so that NGBs were legitimately established by a personal charter handed down by God himself; instead their history often isn't any different than that of the other organization; the main differences is that often in time they have longer prevailed. For the US, the whole AAU/JBBF, or in France the whole Kawaishi/Abe (and those were both Japanese) and respective federations, in Belgium the Abe/Hirano and respective federations, in Holland the Schutte/BBN, etc, the whole history of judo in most countries is like that with one against the other claiming legitimacy, people, clubs switching, bribes, and worse. It's right down ugly, such as the story in the Netherlands of one federations calling in the help of Prince Bernhard to have Hirano's tourist visum revoked on the accusations of working (teaching judo) without permission, so that they would lose their Japanese leading sensei and the other group could prevail to claim NGB status. This is the kind of shit that judo federations, NGBs and others have conducted as long as they have existed, and this of course all in the interest of Kanô's noble principles of mutual prosperity, world peace, and similar blahblahblah, and how jûdô forges these lifelong friendships like no other discipline does ...

    Many years ago I talked to the one of the leading people regarding the trainer/instructors courses which luckily are run by the government here instead of the NGBs, and they had problems only with one group of sports; not with badminton, swimming, gymanistics, track and field, but ... with the judo federations, AND with the karate federations, AND with the aikidô federations, AND with the taekwondô federations, basically all the ones that issued dan-ranks (or the Korean equivalent) with power/authority connected to that. All contenders in each of the disciplines were constantly bickering driving the course organizers near to insanity. One notes that ALL these disciplines are characterized by schisms, and internal rivalry

    In terms of grades, indeed it is oftentimes like you point out, but not always. There are non-NGBs whose rank requirements are far more stringent and demanding. Also, the fact that one might not have been graded if they stayed in the NGB does not necessarily imply they shouldn't or didn't deserve to be graded. Grading is the single most corrupt and manipulated item in any judo organization NGB or other, and this in both ways, that means by up-promoting people who don't deserve it or by not promoting people who deserve it. In hindsight it probably is one of the weakest and most corruptible and naive aspects in the whole of Kanô's jûdô pedagogy as similar problems were already very prevalent in Japan during his live as underpinned by the Kôdôkan/Butokukai tensions, the Oda Jôin incident, Kanemitsu's initial refusal to accept his Kôdôkan 9th dan, TPL's 7th dan refusal, and many other not so well known incidents. Note that the Putin 8th dan, the Teddy Roosevelt 8th dan, the Jeremy Glick 10th dan and other marketing or nonsensical gestures were all done by either NGBs, international parent organizations, or NGB member federations, and so is Obama's taekwondô black belt.

    Another really remarkable thing is ... many people in non-NGBs once were part of NGBs and may have obtained decent or even high ranks there, won championships and were described as "excellent jûdôka", teacher and coaches; remarkably, from the moment these same jûdôka leave the NGB and become part of an independent jûdô organization, they suddenly are described as people with poor jûdô who are totally overranked, not to be trusted, corrupt, likely pedophiles or people who couldn't keep their hands of the girls or whatever ... This is very, very strange. Either someone is a good jûdôka, instructor, coach or one isn't, and yes over many years one can improve too, but one does not from one day on another become an incompetent jûdôka/teacher/coach/womanizer/pedophile/inflated ranked just because of having switched organizations ...


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:19 pm; edited 2 times in total


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    medo

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by medo on Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:53 pm

    This is a local independent that I have posted before on the old site.

    http://www.kanazawajudo.com/

    Paddy's lost some weight please take a look at some of the techniques and the names.

    Have a look at the brown and black block belt never seen one of those before what would happen if you turned up at another club with that on.

    Paddy's showing he's tai otoshi in one of the photo's its different, but what would happen if any of his pupils moved house and started at a new club and demonstrated Jud tec!

    What do you think good for Judo or not bothered?

    CK yes I understand your posting and have seen high NGB grades awarded without assessment if they were assessed they would not have got there shodan let alone a godan or Rokudan.

    still learning

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by still learning on Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:08 pm

    IMHO, any instructor that does not encourage his students to train and compete outside of his own dojo is doing them a disservice, as they are missing out enormously on the wider judo world. Of course those pupils would need to be confident in their ability and have techniques that would be recognised, together with an understanding of the rules that they would expect to follow. For most people that would necessitate being a member of a NGB and having a grade recognised by them.

    I am sure that there are some excellent instructors who are not affiliated to a NGB who do this, but I've never met one

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:05 pm

    still learning wrote:IMHO, any instructor that does not encourage his students to train and compete outside of his own dojo is doing them a disservice, as they are missing out enormously on the wider judo world. Of course those pupils would need to be confident in their ability and have techniques that would be recognised, together with an understanding of the rules that they would expect to follow. For most people that would necessitate being a member of a NGB and having a grade recognised by them.

    I am sure that there are some excellent instructors who are not affiliated to a NGB who do this, but I've never met one

    Do you honestly think that during all the years I trained in Japan and the time I spent in South-Korea that anyone ever asked me if I was a member of an NGB and if my rank was recognized by an NGB ? No one could give a flying fuck. The quality of your jûdô and experience is shown on the tatami, not by a piece of paper (and now sometimes plastic) or membership. Similarly, I have never asked nor have ever known anyone to ask when visiting a machi dôjô or other dôjô whether they were a member of an NGB. To this day in fact I do not know if my 'club' in Japan, the Kyôto Police Academy which goes back to the legendary names of Abe Kenshirô, Ebii Gôichi, Kurihara Tamio, and the likes is a 'member' of the All Japan Jûdô Federation. I can't really imagine since they are police and not public dôjô. I hope you also don't think that we got little membership cards which we had to have signed off each time to see if we could test for our next kyû rank ? This is all Western fantasy world of jûdô. It's a bit the same as when you outside or in school see kids kick a ball. Do you then descend on them with the "soccer police" to demand to see their FIFA credentials ? Unless someone is a commercial pro club interested in playing in the pro divisions and internationally no one could be bothered.

    In the West such member has often been purported as being guided by liability and insurance reasons. However, this is often BS. For example, one could simply require anyone participating to show proof of insurance, any insurance, for example personal insurance covering jûdô. Moreover jûdô NGBs have leeway negotiating with insurance companies and those excluding any accidents incurred while practising with someone who is not a member, are usually rather excluded because that was the NGBs wish, and NOT because it was a demand from the insurer !


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Jonesy

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:42 pm

    There is a tendency is judo for a lot lf people to worry about other people's judo and other people's standards rather than their own.  A late great sensei told me "worry about your own judo - not other people's". The same man said "you do not have to push others down just for you to rise up". I have seen good judo in non IJF NGBs as well as very poor.  I have also seen pretty crappy judo in IJF NGBs too as well as very good. By the way Kodokan ranks are not IJF recognised - the highest IJF ranking Japanese judoka is I believe a senior referee who is an IJF 8 dan.


    Last edited by Jonesy on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:03 am; edited 1 time in total

    Udon

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Udon on Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:50 am

    Kodokan ranks are not IJF recognized ???

    still learning

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by still learning on Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:08 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    still learning wrote:IMHO, any instructor that does not encourage his students to train and compete outside of his own dojo is doing them a disservice, as they are missing out enormously on the wider judo world. Of course those pupils would need to be confident in their ability and have techniques that would be recognised, together with an understanding of the rules that they would expect to follow. For most people that would necessitate being a member of a NGB and having a grade recognised by them.

    I am sure that there are some excellent instructors who are not affiliated to a NGB who do this, but I've never met one

    Do you honestly think that during all the years I trained in Japan and the time I spent in South-Korea that anyone ever asked me if I was a member of an NGB and if my rank was recognized by an NGB ?  No one could give a flying fuck. The quality of your jûdô and experience is shown on the tatami, not by a piece of paper (and now sometimes plastic) or membership. Similarly, I have never asked nor have ever known anyone to ask when visiting a machi dôjô or other dôjô whether they were a member of an NGB. To this day in fact I do not know if my 'club' in Japan, the Kyôto Police Academy which goes back to the legendary names of Abe Kenshirô, Ebii Gôichi, Kurihara Tamio, and the likes is a 'member' of the All Japan Jûdô Federation. I can't really imagine since they are police and not public dôjô. I hope you also don't think that we got little membership cards which we had to have signed off each time to see if we could test for our next kyû rank ?  This is all Western fantasy world of jûdô. It's a bit the same as when you outside or in school see kids kick a ball. Do you then descend on them with the "soccer police" to demand to see their FIFA credentials ?  Unless someone is a commercial pro club interested in playing in the pro divisions and internationally no one could be bothered.

    In the West such member has often been purported as being guided by liability and insurance reasons. However, this is often BS. For example, one could simply require anyone participating to show proof of insurance, any insurance, for example personal insurance covering jûdô. Moreover jûdô NGBs have leeway negotiating with insurance companies and those excluding any accidents incurred while practising with someone who is not a member, are usually rather excluded because that was the NGBs wish, and NOT because it was a demand from the insurer !

    I did not call into question the validity of anybodys rank, I was trying to point out that any instructor who does not train his strudents sufficiently and provide positive encouragement for them to broaden their judo by going elsewhere is IMHO a poor instructor. I am sure I am not alone when I say that in the UK we have all seen inward looking clubs where instructors grade their students and keep everything "in house" and have a very narrow knowledge of judo, which does not prepare their students for the wider judo world, and in turn can do judo a disservice, when judoka relocate and find that their knowledge is inadequate. My issue is with such instructors and I feel that the NGB in the UK at least provide a framework to ensure that instructors are accredited to a standard, the requirements for which certainly appear to be improving in the UK. My understnading is that the French system is much more controlled and more beneficial as a result.

    You clearly have a far greater knowldege than myself and have travelled much further afield than myself. It is a credit to yourself and your instructor that you had the knowledge to do this and sufficient ability that those you trained with could see this. Quality always speaks for itself and does not neccesitate any NGB paperwork, when I trained with Fallon, Adams, Inoue ... the quality was there to see and feel, and indeed marvel at. It is not such individuals that my post was aimed at, it is the charlattans who are accountable to nobody and have typically done no further training since they obtained their black belt and decided that was enough. Knowledge has to be built on and whilst NGBs have their faults, their intention to develop instructors and so develop judoka is apparent and appropriate.


    finarashi

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by finarashi on Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:11 am

    Udon wrote:Kodokan ranks are not IJF recognized ???
    See e.g. http://www.eju.net/statutes and then download
    •DAN Grades IJF Regulations
    - Up to the 6th dan, the grades are within the competence of the Member National Federations. If they wish them to be formalized by the IJF, they must send a request to their Continental Unions.
    - The 7th dan can be validated only by the Continental Unions.
    - The 8th dan and higher must, after opinion of the continental Directors, be sent to the IJF Grade and “dan” rank Commission Director who will examine files and will propose the appointments. The 10th dan grade can be awarded only unanimously by the IJF Executive Committee.

    So basically IJF does not care about national grades i.e. any NGB can give whatever grade they want. So Kodokan can grade to 10th dan as well as French FFJDA can grade to 10th dan. (and both have)
    If the individual wants his grade to be recognized by IJF then after recieving national grade it can be applied to be recognized by IJF. But high grade is not necessarily recognized by IJF.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:20 am

    I am all for every judoka travelling far and wide, visiting every club and every association they can to broaden their judo experience.  Judo study should be a personal journey and as many different inputs as possible is always good.  You always learn something from everyone - even if it is only how not to do something. IJF NGB membership is not an essential part of that journey unless local insurance issues or a desire to compete at elite level necessitate it.

    I can still remember when the BJA detested the BJC and did everything they could to discredit their skills.  They also banned anyone from holding BJC membership as well as BJA membership.


    Last edited by Jonesy on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:19 am; edited 1 time in total

    Jonesy

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:04 am

    Udon wrote:Kodokan ranks are not IJF recognized ???
    No they are not. The Kodokan is on one level merely a private dojo in Tokyo.

    Jonesy

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:10 am

    still learning wrote:
    I am sure that there are some excellent instructors who are not affiliated to a NGB who do this, but I've never met one
    How about this: http://jfauk.org/documents/syllabus/video-tutorials


    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:17 am

    still learning wrote:
    I did not call into question the validity of anybodys rank, I was trying to point out that any instructor who does not train his strudents sufficiently and provide positive encouragement for them to broaden their judo by going elsewhere is IMHO a poor instructor. I am sure I am not alone when I say that in the UK we have all seen inward looking clubs where instructors grade their students and keep everything "in house" and have a very narrow knowledge of judo, which does not prepare their students for the wider judo world, and in turn can do judo a disservice, when judoka relocate and find that their knowledge is inadequate. My issue is with such instructors and I feel that the NGB in the UK at least provide a framework to ensure that instructors are accredited to a standard, the requirements for which certainly appear to be improving in the UK. My understnading is that the French system is much more controlled and more beneficial as a result.

    You clearly have a far greater knowldege than myself and have travelled much further afield than myself. It is a credit to yourself and your instructor that you had the knowledge to do this and sufficient ability that those you trained with could see this. Quality always speaks for itself and does not neccesitate any NGB paperwork, when I trained with Fallon, Adams, Inoue ... the quality was there to see and feel, and indeed marvel at. It is not such individuals that my post was aimed at, it is the charlattans who are accountable to nobody and have typically done no further training since they obtained their black belt and decided that was enough. Knowledge has to be built on and whilst NGBs have their faults, their intention to develop instructors and so develop judoka is apparent and appropriate.


    Fair enough, and I can see your point, and have indeed often have the exact same experiences you mention. Probably what you described and pointed at indeed is more often the case than it is not, but I think that one has to build in nuances when making these statements and create a caveat that it isn't ALWAYS like that. IF, for example, Neil Adams tomorrow decides the BJA and join the Whatever-Icecream&Chocolate-Free-Judo-Association-Of-England, he does not suddenly become a poor jûdôka. He then still is that same Neil Adams with all the same achievements and knowledge and skills. And this people sometimes forget. You are right that an instructor must train his students sufficiently and provide positive encouragmentfor (at the right time, not at the very start) to train elsewhere, BUT this applies to and can be done by any instructor, whether NGB or non-NGB.

    You made a reference to "the charlattans who are accountable to nobody and have typically done no further training since they obtained their black belt and decided that was enough", but don't they exist everywhere irrespective of the organization they are linked with ? I also think that it isn't simply because one hasn't done anything more that one per definition is a "charlatan". It seems to me that the expression "charlatan" houses and intent of some inappropriate nature. There are many people in my clubs whose end goal it was to obtain shodan. They will never obtain any higher rank, never visit Japan, never visit a jûdô seminar, but they are neither bad people nor charlatans. They do not claim any expertise they do not have, they do not teach, they do not assume any leading role or special responsbilities, yet they behave as correct judo citizens, and they are of course accountable, partly to me as Head Instructor and to the club board. It is legally questionable in how far they are directly accountable to the federation because in many federations strictly speaking only clubs are members, not individuals, but that's besides the point.

    With regard to the real charlatans, one issue is why budô seems to exert this great attraction. There is one (Western)-jûjutsu club in my city that has at least two 10th dan-holders in one club, lots of nonsense, and the Internet is full of them in karate, aikdiô, taekwondô, jûjutsu, whatever dô, granmaster si and la, big belt, often with gold and so many stripes you have to carefully count them to know how many there are point. Somehow they don't find that attraction in swimming, badminton, skiing, but only in budô. is this because budô creates more of a fantasy world, is it because of its pseudo-military structure and hierarchy ? We can only speculate. But given that this is so prevalent and has existed for so long, very little has come in place to reinvent or modify jûdô and other budô. One could even wonder, if all ranks would be abolished in budô, would it still exert a similar attraction ? I don't think so, and this is a problem, because I don't think that jûdô ranks in themselves are relevant to the core of Kanô's views on education.


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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Hanon on Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:55 am

    Damn and blast it. I don't want nor need this sort of thread. I am lacking self control today some thing fearful.....Shittt.

    Want a fast post so am going to greatly generalise. Take the points and not find nuances please, there are always exceptions.

    1)There are charlatans involved with judo. The only difference between them is some are official, ie NGB and some are not.

    1a) Define 'charlatan'. I consider an 8th dan who has never taken an exam since sho dan to be unworthy of holding such a rank. The EJU has several at this rank who have devoted their judo time to refereeing and been promoted on 'services to judo' BY THE NGB's....

    2) there is a dilemma here with regard associations. Both my parents spent from 1939 to 1945 fighting as teens for their kids to have freedom of choice. The operative word here is choice. What an adult does with his hard earned cash is his business with regard to his legal hobbies.
    If we want this freedom of choice we have to accept its limitations. I would rather shop in M&S than lidl any day BUT respect the choice that free people have to spend as they desire. Do we really want big brother to continue to erode our freedoms. We debate judo here NOT surgery at an A&E unit. As I sit here in the comfort of my home with my loved ones do you realise how many people are protecting and fighting for our freedom to make choices? WTF are these teens and young people fighting for if we cant even agree on freedom to choose what associations we decide to join? How petty are we going to get here? To date I have never heard of any member of the public being pressganged into any dojo?  

    3) Most of the NON NGB associations I know of have a highly content membership? The social life and social gatherings they organise around their budo practice is generally second to non. When it comes to judoka satisfaction they are second to non AND the vast majority of those associations members are very nice, decent people who are a pleasure to teach and work with. More, just try and prize those members to our NGB dojos? It cant be done as the members of those non NGB associations enjoy what they are involved with. Sounded absurd to me all my judo life bit with age I can now see how many of these associations operate and why the membership is a happy one.

    4) An awful lot of NGB dojo focus on championship judo in one form or another. Shiai is a vital element to ones growth in judo. I wrote shiai not the need to attend championships at aged 5 or white obi to try to win a medal. Not everyone enjoys championships so alternatives are fine.

    5) In France if people become disenfranchised with their judo or association they either close the dojo or change from judo to another sport like BJJ or Krav mage as the case is today. IF France had options the number of French judoka would be rising rather than diminishing. Believe me, by far not all French judo dojo are happy places to be yet it is THE LAW if you practice judo both your dojo , your dan rank and qualifications are registered with the Government. Unsure how I feel about that? My money, my dojo, my pupils, my free time, my hobby? Mmmm, what is the next step? One can own most other businesses free from this sort of restrictions?

    6) Rank. THE hot potato. This is NEVER going to be resolved in the Western world as the original Japanese philosophy toward the education, teaching practice and grades of judo simply have not, and cannot, travel well.  In Japan they don't care what rank you are, no one even asks! What they care about is what one does ON a tatami. Its the judo that counts not the obi.
    So many members of Western judo forum desire to see Okano sensei promoted to 9th dan, or whatever. Non of these well wishers take into account the possibility that Okano Sensei has been offered rank and declined it. Secondly to that point do you really think Okano needs any rank at all to be Okano SENSEI? I think without a doubt Okano sensei sleeps very well and doesn't need any rank to be who he is. ALL of us could take a leaf out of his book.

    7) Those who wear a rank that is 'questionable' do so at their own peril. Most of those who are uncomfortable in their rank, and yes they do know it, seldom leave the 'safety of their own dojo or dare to work on tatami outside their association. They make themselves prisoners. To that end they are not going to enter our dojo and pollute our members with some magical anti judo syndrome. My guess would be it would be difficult to even find what is being called a charlatan even in a bloody gi. Don't be so concerned, they don't bit and cant harm us.
    I am willing to pay the price to maintain my freedom of choice to allow different judo associations to exist. I don't have to sell my soul to the devil to allow such freedom. I have yet to be infected by any ones judo regardless of association.
    Truth be told the percentage of unworthy ranks is a very VERY tiny percentage of the judo population. Leave such judging to those in a court of law and are qualified to do so.  

    I guess that about it.

    You all keep well and never miss a lesson.

    Mike  Wink

    Just a PS. I see this puerile system of red and green marking a post is still here. If members disagree with another posters points they should have the bloody minerals to put fingers to key board and challenge that post in writing not just click a red mark. (wait for it)

    PS again. Thanks for the red mark, it proves my point. So predictable. cheers 


    Last edited by Hanon on Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : PS twice.)


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    medo

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by medo on Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:53 pm

    Hi Mike,
    I suppose its an emotional subject to some, hence another type of grading system  Very Happy  but your post does not warrant red marks nor do the others Sams new Judo for all if he can attract quality Judoka will take of and rival the AJA/BJC that's not an issue the term charleton is a bit strong. As you say the clubs in question tend to be run like a big family under the Kancho kyoshi titles that tend to be used.

    The poster that I answered to, which started all this was happy to be out of main stream judo my thoughts where to give him my feelings as for years I have had two independants on my local door step one a 7thdan one an 8th dan I know that they started in the BJC never got past shodan/nidan yet 40 odd years on that's the grades they hold when you have adults turn to you and say my kids practicing with one of the highest grades in judo in the country it does niggle a little  Evil or Very Mad  knowing that they make a lot of money from opening and in one case closing clubs working his way every four years around the junior schools taking parents initial joy at learning judo but as soon as the kids get bored after a few weeks and the numbers drop he's of to the next school to make his money, now parents pay £3 cash no paper trail "taxman" nice new van to move the mats around! He has the audacity to grade himself to 8th dan well perhaps charleton was not so strong Sad 

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