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    Curious to hear what people think about this

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    DougNZ

    Posts : 395
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by DougNZ on Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:27 pm

    Dear Hanon. So nice to hear from you; I do miss your posts.

    I must say I agree with most of what you say but the thought I had was raised by medo. What of the innocents? What of the public taken in by people promoting themselves as something they are not or should not be?

    As you know, I come predominantly from a ju-jitsu background and it is one of the roles of our NGB to regulate grades on behalf of the public. We do not do this by awarding grades but by verifying existing grades. It's a touchy subject but so is the manner in which so many ju-jitsuka bounded through the grades in the eighties and nineties. Funnily enough, few of those bounders put their grades forward for be scrutinised. Their absence from the public register therefore speaks volumes.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:48 am

    Hi Medo, Hi DougNZ.

    It is kind of you both to write an open, honest and accurate challenge to what I have written. This is what a forum is for, debate, challenges and further kaeshi waza.

    Please remember several points when you read any of my posts. First point is my hypocrisy. I am so free with advice yet so often cannot yet take my own medicine. I have such high expectations of you guys and gals but am so hyper critical of myself. Second point, I was past 'my sell by date' over a decade ago. For two weeks now I have not even been able to stand on a tatami as I cannot bend my Right knee? In reality I no longer warrant a place in these debates. Judo is a doing, contact activity, physical. Sure that is the half the other half being intellectual BUT there is a need for both criteria to be in balance. never mind. To the point.

    Medo, I truly and honestly know exactly how you feel. May I illustrate with a tale? I inherited a dojo in 1970 by default, the teacher just no longer appeared? I was a very young sho dan. I had a peer who was around 10 years older who also had a dojo. You could say we grew together in judo.
    Point is my peers judo was highly questionable and he made the fatal error of never bothering to learn judo yet always teach it? Long story short....Come grading time I had bleed to get my ranks. My peer was GIVEN them. Why? Well he taught in a very affluent part of the city had a massive luxury dojo with well over 100 pupils and a waiting list of double that plus to try and accommodate such numbers he opened a second dojo!

    Every time I passed a dan rank my peer went up to the same? How could this be? He had yet to learn the randori no kata I needed to gain a 1st kyu?
    Point is financial. I had at the most 40 pupils, he bought to any association well over 200+ members also tatami and a staff of parents wiling to cater to any visiting sensei to a very high standard. To this very day this person is still teaching judo and is still clueless even about the most basic concepts.

    Medo, you can turn the tables. Club visits are a great way for your pupils to get some free practice. Think about this. I used to visit other dojo every night of the week, EVERY NIGHT. Some of those dojo where 'hard', no teaching just shiai for two hours. Some of my pupils would decline to visit some of those 'hard' clubs while others loved them. NON of my pupils ever declined to visit my peers dojo in fact they requested that be the dojo we practice at? Why? Well on the way home the talk would be how good my pupils thought they where as they at 5th kyu where scoring two ippons on my peers 2nd kyu! Throw for the first ippon then ne waza for the second.
    Over the years when we visited my peers dojo some of his pupils would enter the dojo and not bother to even change into gi. Did the parents or pupils themselves ever ask why they lost so badly when we visited? I cant answer that as my peer provided a 'service' to his club members that was staggering. They would hold parties and summer events, go on visits to other towns for the day. This guy was a truly nice chap. His pupils where educated and their parents came from professional back grounds.
    I guarantee you could not prize a pupil away from my peer with promises of gold. My pupils suffered all the usual bumps and sprains even occasional broken clavicle. Not his. How can you bruise what you don't use? To add possible insult to injury my peer earned more in a week from judo than I earned in a month after spending 12 bloody years at university qualifying and practicing my profession! TAX FREE..........Jeez man. ingenious.

    There is more. Come yudanshakai meetings my peer had far more weight in what he said than I did. This peer broke many rules, we would sit at a meeting where my seniors would be blustering away ready to sack this guy. My peer would walk in, LATE, and make such a 'genuine' apology promising to never break said rule again, he took the wind out of the sales before the bloody boat even left the shore!!!!! Brilliant psychology, better than my professors had taught me at uni!!! This guy was not only untouchable he made a fortune and was dearly loved by all? I was the bad guy!

    Still more............this peer had the financial capacity to invite any top sensei he wanted and he did. He had them stay at 5* hotels and dinned them etc No association would ever dare sack this peer. Me, they tolerated as they needed some one (idiot) to show the kata and teach the techniques? Bitter? I could have turned milk sour just by looking at it. Shocked 

    Medo. Don't ever sell your soul and lower your thoughts to allow your neighbours to affect your mind. YOU can sleep at night with the knowledge that you and your pupils are a family and a family that practice kodokan judo and has 'value' in terms of kodokan judo. You cant BUY that.

    Will it chaff, you bet BUT with time I hope you will realise the misery these self appointed kancho and Shihan live under. I truly and sincerely believe when these self proclaimed Gods of budo have a quite minute and reflect inwardly they realise who and what they are.
    I so often question what I am doing and question my own knowledge base. I would not swop places with those guys, not for all the money and titles in the world. As a side note I have been very busy of late making more and new enemies in the budo world by refusing further rank! I cant fg win! Never could and never will. " Who does Hanon think he is, why cant he take the rank like the rest of us". Because I I I I have to wear it not them. Fk off!

    Make friends with them and visit their dojo with your pupils as often as you can. Your membership may not grow but the difference in judo will shine out for all to SEE. I know of whom you write. I can imagine just how you feel. Don't waste another second of you time allowing such people to occupy your thoughts. Sorry for the lecture, I mean well.

    Doug. Hi, I knew your point would be raised. I again need to ramble. I enjoy hi-fi and audio visual, technology blah blah. I window shop at every opportunity I have. I see shoppers looking at a wall of 100 TV sets and so many of them will be looking at the price. Some obscure make like Winyong its 55" screen yet' only' cost 500.00€, the Panasonic or Sony 40" is twice the price! Outrageous. Guess what set goes in the car...........they will get what they paid for. Worse, many will be happy with their Winyong 55" while any average person will get a headache after watching that crap screen after 5 minutes. Some of the techno sold is actually water proof until it gets wet!
    Point is choice. Nothing to do with innocent victims. I have heard the sales staff point out the differences, I have spoken to some of the shoppers myself and still they make their choice. They are not innocent they don't need protecting they are exercising their right to choose how they spend their money. There is an enormous moral dilemma here also. What right do we have as so called legitimate judoka to dictate where and how another person learns their budo?

    It is even more complex than just simple choice. Many and I mean, many of those so called innocents are not innocent at all, they know from the start or very soon learn that the quality of budo they learn is questionable. Point is many of these innocents desire a black obi, don't want nor would accept the work to earn one so go the easy root. Add to that the social activities and social life that these small associations have and again you could not prize them out of that situation with explosives plus why should we even try.

    Final points.

    let us take the UK as a pure example. IF IF there are 20 of these independent associations in the UK and the top brass are all kohaku ranks lets say 30 questionable high ranks? is that such a damaging blow to judo considering how many tens of thousands there are in Uk judo dojo? The options to allowing freedoms of choice are what? Do we want a European police state more than we already have? We don't have a nannie state here we have a near police state. Compromise. I have no answers other than to agree that democracy is crap but its the best we can manage?

    Continue to teach your judo, stay the course, make a physical difference in your teaching. By all means compare but never let than comparison lower your standards, use the comparisons to aim even higher. Above all keep this sort of politics well away from your dojo and pupils or we will become even worse than those WE refer to as charlatans.

    Truly last tiny point. These independent dojo, if they are performing a community service by keeping kids of the street and adults out of the bars and teaching policies like non smoking even though the ranks may be odd buit are they not providing a worthy social service within the community? Its not judo as we know it OR IS IT? Think about that also. What was is the man himself wrote, "Mutual welfare and benefit". There is nothing more mutual with benefits than most of those independents.  confused 

    Nice to chat with you again. Very best wishes to you both and thank you for your dedication to budo. Our thanks is not said enough to you young chaps who give so much to those you teach. Teaching judo is now harder than it has ever been. You have my respect.

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    afulldeck

    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by afulldeck on Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:12 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Medo, you can turn the tables. Club visits are a great way for your pupils to get some free practice. Think about this. I used to visit other dojo every night of the week, EVERY NIGHT.
    Mike

    Absolutely Brilliant!


    _________________
    “I have never wished to cater to the crowd; for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know.” ... Epicurus at Sen. Lucil, 29.10

    Udon

    Posts : 112
    Join date : 2012-12-31
    Location : Minnesota

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Udon on Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:50 am

    Hanon Sensei , I agree that judo is a balance between the physical and the intellectual , but that balance shifts as you grow older. You cannot expect it to be the same for you now as it was when you were twenty five.
    You do yourself and students of judo a disservice when you intimate you don't belong on the mat because of physical problems. You have a wealth of judo knowledge that you are obligated to teach and share with other judoka. That you cannot demonstrate a throw because you can no longer bend your knees doesn't mean you can't teach that throw. It just means you can't demonstrate it like you used to.
    Take heart, step back on the mat.

    DougNZ

    Posts : 395
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:15 am

    Udon wrote:Hanon Sensei , I agree that judo is a balance between the physical and the intellectual , but that balance shifts as you grow older. You cannot expect it to be the same for you now as it was when you were twenty five.
    You do yourself and students of judo a disservice when you intimate you don't belong on the mat because of physical problems. You have a wealth of judo knowledge that you are obligated to teach and share with other judoka. That you cannot demonstrate a throw because you can no longer bend your knees doesn't mean you can't teach that throw. It just means you can't demonstrate it like you used to.
    Take heart, step back on the mat.

    Very well said.

    Maybe not an obligation on your part to teach but a great loss to the judo world if you do not.


    Last edited by DougNZ on Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total

    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 856
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:57 am

    Udon wrote:Hanon Sensei , I agree that judo is a balance between the physical and the intellectual , but that balance shifts as you grow older. You cannot expect it to be the same for you now as it was when you were twenty five.
    You do yourself and students of judo a disservice when you intimate you don't belong on the mat because of physical problems. You have a wealth of judo knowledge that you are obligated to teach and share with other judoka. That you cannot demonstrate a throw because you can no longer bend your knees doesn't mean you can't teach that throw. It just means you can't demonstrate it like you used to.
    Take heart, step back on the mat.

    I understand that of course your post is a way to express sympathy and encouragement, but ... that being said, I think that you should be very careful telling someone what their "obligation to jûdô" is, especially when you don't know what challenges someone might have and face. I will never take the kind of words in my mouth to tell someone with that kind of seniority what their duty is to jûdô. It's not appropriate. People are also humans with a right to self-determination. I once sat down with Ôsawa-sensei talking about various historic things, and as always of course inquiring about his well-being, and sensei started to talk to me about his sufferings. I was thinking that there was so much I could learn from him, but to claim that my right to learn from him was more important than to finally allow him his well-deserved rest and ease of mind ... no ...

    I have experienced my own sensei when he stopped teaching, and talked to him at length during the autumn of his life. He sincerely wished it would be different, and he sincerely wished his body would have been able to follow, but it didn't. I don't think that people with that much experience in jûdô take it very lightly when they decide or suggest they no longer want to be on the tatami. Do I wish it were different ?  Sure, but does that really matter ?

    Also, as I have said so very often, we all like to talk about how wonderful jûdô is, and how you make all these friends for life, and we are all one happy bunch, no lack of romantic prose, so much is certain. The reality is that so many people who have been in jûdô for a long time have experienced so much shit, that seriously, they must have been blessed with so much perseverence since every sane person would have long ago called it quits.

    So, yes, a world of knowledge and experience, no doubt, but we have no right whatsoever to claim anyone. In fact, if we truly respect someone, then that respect starts with our genuine concern for their own well-being, which should at all times become before our own neediness.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:27 am

    Udon wrote:Hanon Sensei , I agree that judo is a balance between the physical and the intellectual , but that balance shifts as you grow older. You cannot expect it to be the same for you now as it was when you were twenty five.
    You do yourself and students of judo a disservice when you intimate you don't belong on the mat because of physical problems. You have a wealth of judo knowledge that you are obligated to teach and share with other judoka. That you cannot demonstrate a throw because you can no longer bend your knees doesn't mean you can't teach that throw. It just means you can't demonstrate it like you used to.
    Take heart, step back on the mat.

    You are too kind. Life is not so simple, if only it was.

    A dojo needs examples for others to follow. To see judo being performed in randori and shiai with their own eyes. As a child it was the higher ranks that inspired me.
    Ever been to one of those clubs where the 'sensei' tells every one what to do but never shows by example? In the past when I said 100 ucikomi I did them as well, ukemi, I did them, randori, I did it etc. This is vital to the growth of a dojo. In my dojo ALL the pupils behave like they are my age!!!! cant be like that. New blood has to come up and take over.

    I detest attending courses in judo or any budo where the teachers talk talk talk while the young ones sit there and listen listen listen. Judo is a physical activity and it is learned and internalised by PRACTICE no one, I mean NO ONE, learns judo from a book nor a lecture. The great values and lessons of judo are developed when we start as kyu ranks. Sure judo is an intellectual activity BUT ones intellect can only be fed by physical practice, the one compliments the other. Theory is a must but so is practice, research is a must but so is practice.

    I agree with lectures in judo BUT never during keiko or tuition. Time is so precious on the tatami, for a lecture we can speak in the changing rooms or at a café etc even arrange a class room.
    No, the young MUST practice and be shown how to. BY example.

    I have no idea what is wrong with my Right knee. I awoke some time two weeks ago and could not place any weight on it, its the whole of the knee that hurts? NEVER even suffered a single knee injury in my life. Back and shoulders are my cross to bare. Its just one more physical problem to add to the list.

    Please listen to me. Practice your judo ON the tatami for as long as you can. All and every aspect of it. I have zero regrets about that as that is exactly what I did.

    Then there is the final element for me. It fits perfectly with this thread. When I was a young teen I was a pig of a person in so many ways. The point of judo surely is to progress in the physical aspects and also character, agreed? I have changed, I have changed beyond belief BUT not enough.

    I still do not tolerate fools gladly. This indicates I lack mental tai sabaki. I still lose my self control, this also shows a total lack of learning. I get angry with other road users and still play my face if when making a purchase I don't receive a decent level of service.
    There are many ways to react to situations. I still tend to revert to aggression, verbal not physical. To that end I am mentally so tired of lecturing those who do when I cant...its all so rather absurd. I need my sensei. I need to be controlled as much, if not more, than you guys and gals who I am so free to give my advice too.
    I am ashamed to write my rank is shichidan. I expect so much more from my peers.

    What would you do? Sad 

    Mike confused 


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:38 am

    I would still ask my fellow judoka here WHY they feel the need to have this red and green system of voting? In this thread it is one red after the other? To what aim? I learn zero from being given a red mark, I learn from a poster taking me to task about what I have written.

    Who is the person at present awarding all these red marks and why cant they post a reply explaining why they disagree, that way we all learn?
    I truly don't understand the judo forum when we encourage such a negative feedback system. It is totally un productive. How would we feel if when we gave in our assignments at college to have them returned with a red mark? No explanation just a red mark? How does one learn from ones mistakes under such a regime? Such a system stifles debate and certainly does zero to encourage it.

    All been said before though. Shame we as judoka need such things.

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    DougNZ

    Posts : 395
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:44 am

    Hanon wrote:I would still ask my fellow judoka here WHY they feel the need to have this red and green system of voting? In this thread it is one red after the other? To what aim? I learn zero from being given a red mark, I learn from a poster taking me to task about what I have written.

    Who is the person at present awarding all these red marks and why cant they post a reply explaining why they disagree, that way we all learn?
    I truly don't understand the judo forum when we encourage such a negative feedback system. It is totally un productive. How would we feel if when we gave in our assignments at college to have them returned with a red mark? No explanation just a red mark? How does one learn from ones mistakes under such a regime? Such a system stifles debate and certainly does zero to encourage it.

    All been said before though. Shame we as judoka need such things.

    Mike

    I have never noticed the system and never used it. It does not add to the education I get from this forum, so why would I?

    DougNZ

    Posts : 395
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:00 am

    Hanon wrote:
    A dojo needs examples for others to follow. To see judo being performed in randori and shiai with their own eyes. As a child it was the higher ranks that inspired me.
    Ever been to one of those clubs where the 'sensei' tells every one what to do but never shows by example? In the past when I said 100 ucikomi I did them as well, ukemi, I did them, randori, I did it etc. This is vital to the growth of a dojo. In my dojo ALL the pupils behave like they are my age!!!! cant be like that. New blood has to come up and take over.

    Sorry, Hanon sensei, but you have this one wrong.

    New comers and young players need dynamic senpai and sensei to inspire them. There is no doubt about that. However, there comes a point in time, maybe sandan to godan, where it becomes more and more important to find a wise mentor. Mentors help flesh out the essence of the art, provide broader and deeper understanding and become something of life coaches, too. They do not need to do a jot of physical activity but they provide such huge education. Remember that by sandan or so, the basics are all pretty much well nailed and the player well tested. At this stage, it is understanding that the player seeks rather than just technical coaching. In fact, as the player becomes an instructor, he or she may start to revisit the most basic of their techniques. They will no doubt know many variations of each, along with counters and combinations. What they seek, though, is a deeper understanding of those techniques. That is where the wise old sensei come in.

    My sensei was rude enough to move to the other end of the country! It costs more to visit him than it does to go on an overseas holiday. We talk at least weekly and I learn more from twenty minutes on the phone to him than I do in a day on the mat. In fact many of the people I know at my stage have similar mentor relationships with a senior kodansha and talk at length on the phone to them, too.

    You have much, much more to give, my friend, if you can spare the time.

    medo

    Posts : 276
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by medo on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:17 pm

    Hanon wrote:Hi Medo, Hi DougNZ.

    It is kind of you both to write an open, honest and accurate challenge to what I have written. This is what a forum is for, debate, challenges and further kaeshi waza.

    Please remember several points when you read any of my posts. First point is my hypocrisy. I am so free with advice yet so often cannot yet take my own medicine. I have such high expectations of you guys and gals but am so hyper critical of myself. Second point, I was past 'my sell by date' over a decade ago. For two weeks now I have not even been able to stand on a tatami as I cannot bend my Right knee? In reality I no longer warrant a place in these debates. Judo is a doing, contact activity, physical. Sure that is the half the other half being intellectual BUT there is a need for both criteria to be in balance. never mind. To the point.

    Medo, I truly and honestly know exactly how you feel. May I illustrate with a tale? I inherited a dojo in 1970 by default, the teacher just no longer appeared? I was a very young sho dan. I had a peer who was around 10 years older who also had a dojo. You could say we grew together in judo.
    Point is my peers judo was highly questionable and he made the fatal error of never bothering to learn judo yet always teach it? Long story short....Come grading time I had bleed to get my ranks. My peer was GIVEN them. Why? Well he taught in a very affluent part of the city had a massive luxury dojo with well over 100 pupils and a waiting list of double that plus to try and accommodate such numbers he opened a second dojo!

    Every time I passed a dan rank my peer went up to the same? How could this be? He had yet to learn the randori no kata I needed to gain a 1st kyu?
    Point is financial. I had at the most 40 pupils, he bought to any association well over 200+ members also tatami and a staff of parents wiling to cater to any visiting sensei to a very high standard. To this very day this person is still teaching judo and is still clueless even about the most basic concepts.

    Medo, you can turn the tables. Club visits are a great way for your pupils to get some free practice. Think about this. I used to visit other dojo every night of the week, EVERY NIGHT. Some of those dojo where 'hard', no teaching just shiai for two hours. Some of my pupils would decline to visit some of those 'hard' clubs while others loved them. NON of my pupils ever declined to visit my peers dojo in fact they requested that be the dojo we practice at? Why? Well on the way home the talk would be how good my pupils thought they where as they at 5th kyu where scoring two ippons on my peers 2nd kyu! Throw for the first ippon then ne waza for the second.
    Over the years when we visited my peers dojo some of his pupils would enter the dojo and not bother to even change into gi. Did the parents or pupils themselves ever ask why they lost so badly when we visited? I cant answer that as my peer provided a 'service' to his club members that was staggering. They would hold parties and summer events, go on visits to other towns for the day. This guy was a truly nice chap. His pupils where educated and their parents came from professional back grounds.
    I guarantee you could not prize a pupil away from my peer with promises of gold. My pupils suffered all the usual bumps and sprains even occasional broken clavicle. Not his. How can you bruise what you don't use? To add possible insult to injury my peer earned more in a week from judo than I earned in a month after spending 12 bloody years at university qualifying and practicing my profession! TAX FREE..........Jeez man. ingenious.

    There is more. Come yudanshakai meetings my peer had far more weight in what he said than I did. This peer broke many rules, we would sit at a meeting where my seniors would be blustering away ready to sack this guy. My peer would walk in, LATE, and make such a 'genuine' apology promising to never break said rule again, he took the wind out of the sales before the bloody boat even left the shore!!!!! Brilliant psychology, better than my professors had taught me at uni!!! This guy was not only untouchable he made a fortune and was dearly loved by all? I was the bad guy!

    Still more............this peer had the financial capacity to invite any top sensei he wanted and he did. He had them stay at 5* hotels and dinned them etc No association would ever dare sack this peer. Me, they tolerated as they needed some one (idiot) to show the kata and teach the techniques? Bitter? I could have turned milk sour just by looking at it. Shocked 

    Medo. Don't ever sell your soul and lower your thoughts to allow your neighbours to affect your mind. YOU can sleep at night with the knowledge that you and your pupils are a family and a family that practice kodokan judo and has 'value' in terms of kodokan judo. You cant BUY that.

    Will it chaff, you bet BUT with time I hope you will realise the misery these self appointed kancho and Shihan live under. I truly and sincerely believe when these self proclaimed Gods of budo have a quite minute and reflect inwardly they realise who and what they are.
    I so often question what I am doing and question my own knowledge base. I would not swop places with those guys, not for all the money and titles in the world. As a side note I have been very busy of late making more and new enemies in the budo world by refusing further rank! I cant fg win! Never could and never will. " Who does Hanon think he is, why cant he take the rank like the rest of us". Because I I I I have to wear it not them. Fk off!

    Make friends with them and visit their dojo with your pupils as often as you can. Your membership may not grow but the difference in judo will shine out for all to SEE. I know of whom you write. I can imagine just how you feel. Don't waste another second of you time allowing such people to occupy your thoughts. Sorry for the lecture, I mean well.

    Doug. Hi, I knew your point would be raised. I again need to ramble. I enjoy hi-fi and audio visual, technology blah blah. I window shop at every opportunity I have. I see shoppers looking at a wall of 100 TV sets and so many of them will be looking at the price. Some obscure make like Winyong its 55" screen yet' only' cost 500.00€, the Panasonic or Sony 40" is twice the price! Outrageous. Guess what set goes in the car...........they will get what they paid for. Worse, many will be happy with their Winyong 55" while any average person will get a headache after watching that crap screen after 5 minutes. Some of the techno sold is actually water proof until it gets wet!
    Point is choice. Nothing to do with innocent victims. I have heard the sales staff point out the differences, I have spoken to some of the shoppers myself and still they make their choice. They are not innocent they don't need protecting they are exercising their right to choose how they spend their money. There is an enormous moral dilemma here also. What right do we have as so called legitimate judoka to dictate where and how another person learns their budo?
     
    It is even more complex than just simple choice. Many and I mean, many of those so called innocents are not innocent at all, they know from the start or very soon learn that the quality of budo they learn is questionable. Point is many of these innocents desire a black obi, don't want nor would accept the work to earn one so go the easy root. Add to that the social activities and social life that these small associations have and again you could not prize them out of that situation with explosives plus why should we even try.

    Final points.

    let us take the UK as a pure example. IF IF there are 20 of these independent associations in the UK and the top brass are all kohaku ranks lets say 30 questionable high ranks? is that such a damaging blow to judo considering how many tens of thousands there are in Uk judo dojo? The options to allowing freedoms of choice are what? Do we want a European police state more than we already have? We don't have a nannie state here we have a near police state. Compromise. I have no answers other than to agree that democracy is crap but its the best we can manage?

    Continue to teach your judo, stay the course, make a physical difference in your teaching. By all means compare but never let than comparison lower your standards, use the comparisons to aim even higher. Above all keep this sort of politics well away from your dojo and pupils or we will become even worse than those WE refer to as charlatans.

    Truly last tiny point. These independent dojo, if they are performing a community service by keeping kids of the street and adults out of the bars and teaching policies like non smoking even though the ranks may be odd buit are they not providing a worthy social service within the community? Its not judo as we know it OR IS IT? Think about that also. What was is the man himself wrote, "Mutual welfare and benefit". There is nothing more mutual with benefits than most of those independents.  confused 

    Nice to chat with you again. Very best wishes to you both and thank you for your dedication to budo. Our thanks is not said enough to you young chaps who give so much to those you teach. Teaching judo is now harder than it has ever been. You have my respect.

    Mike

    Thanks Mike,

    Been there done that unforunately his club members starting coming to my club and I was accused of poaching. None of my club were interested having took some with me, reason "to much talk not enough action".
    Its not all doom and gloom last time I bumped into him was at the local tip, me and the mrs was getting rid of some rubbish guess who come up behind me the conversation went like this.
    Hi Allen are you well!
    Yes Pete not so good last year blahhh blahhh (2minutes of extended ills)
    Hows your clubs
    Just running three at moment
    I see you in the paper with Neil (Adams) he's a great guy working with the welsh teams at the moment
    Yes he awarded my 7th dan provided I joined the BJA. I would not Bullshit you Pete(favourite saying when I'm around)
    The BJA accepted your grade? (looks to the floor)
    So you joined as a beginner (no reply)
    Your an an 8th dan now how did that work it was only a few years ago Neil said he may "Nominated" you for 7thdan.
    The parents and (names.....of other persons) award it to me at the summer camp.
    Its not for Judo its for Budo Pete, I would not "bullshit you"

    Well by this time I'm starting laugh and had to walk away broke into a fit of laughter within minutes tears were rolling down my face the Mrs had to drive home.

    I am comfortable in my own Judo skin nothing to prove, happy with my achievements and teaching abillity and now retired much the same as Hannon sensei cannot perform/demonstraite to standard of my 30's/40's found it to painfull both physically and mentally but still turn up at clubs and comps to see whats going on judo has been a big part of my life for nearly 40 years.

    lorenb667

    Posts : 3
    Join date : 2014-04-30

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by lorenb667 on Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:18 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Judoman wrote:I would never award a black belt to anyone under 18. However, in my club I award club ranks. There are many instructors like me that find being part of the national governing bodies unnecessary and just let the skill speak for itself. More and more people are thinking like this and it is threatening to break the strangle hold the NGBs have had on judo for years.

    Why would you adhere to an arbitrary age of 18 to award a black belts ?  I was beating the seniors in the line-ups when I was 15, obtained all my shiai points and passed the same exams at age 16 before a national jury which all the seniors had to pass. What other values are you infusing in a shodan which is essentially a technical-competitive grade ?  A shodan is not intended to suggest that one is a respected sensei, master, teacher, unbeatable expert, or Olympian, nor does it require you to be of an age you can legally drive a car by yourself, vote or decide on euthanasia.

    It's been awhile since I participated in any judo fora, but I just rediscovered this one.

    My two cents on the statement that shodan is "essentially a technical-competitive grade" is that, for me and my area, I expect a black belt to be able to spread judo which means being able to teach. New Mexico, my area, is very small in sheer numbers of judo players and places so I want students of mine to be able to teach because it helps to have more teachers to increase class sizes and class frequency without burning out one person. While I haven't had an opportunity to have one of my students elevated to black belt (I don't plan on personally elevating my students to black belt because, well, I know them and their capability and I want external verification of their competency to prevent bias or speculation that my students aren't "worthy"), one is currently training at a US OTC and several of my new members from the military school placed quite well at a tournament in the Denver area at their first opportunity to compete.

    I'm fond of 16 years old as a minimum for black belt.

    overthehill

    Posts : 34
    Join date : 2014-04-07

    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

    Post by overthehill on Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:50 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:The policy in our federation is:

    - Dan ranks are only awarded by a national jury; no individual sensei no matter how high his rank and extensive experience has the privilege to award dan-ranks just by himself outside of the formally scheduled national exams.
    - All dan ranks are awarded only after a formal skill evaluation on the tatami

    Recently we were told of a club where the sensei at the end of an ordinary work-out decided that several of his kids had done their best on the tatami so he decided to give them a black belt, including 10-year olds. These came thus after they previously held 1st kyû. "But", he said, these are "kids' black belts". When they move to the adult division they have to give up their black belt, be brown belts again, until they pass their formal exam for black belt.

    Never heard of anything similar, so the floor is open for discussion.

    i havent read through these posts, but even countries where national federations are well organized, promotions are always complicated.
    this sounds a lot like the black belts awarded to junior high school kids in japan who completed three years of being on their junior high school team but didnt have the competitive record to be promoted through the normal channels. ive got a couple black belts on my team now who cannot even do a remotely credible ebi during warmups. and, like a lot of japanese kids, do not do anything other than osoto gari and uchimata in uchikomi...

    or, like the droves of P.E. teachers that are now getting black belts in order to satisfy certain education policies.

    and of course, as your are well aware, higher dan ranks cost a lot of money and politics is a major variable.

    id say no matter how great a governing body, there will be abuses when it comes to promotions

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    Re: Curious to hear what people think about this

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