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    tafftaz

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    Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 am

    Heard on the grapevine that new rule changes are in progress.
    Leg grabs as a counter and against an over the top cross grip are permissible again.
    A step in the right direction if it is true.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:41 am

    I thought rules were now frozen till next Olympics?


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:34 am

    Apparently not. Not 100% certain but i was told by one of our national coaches.

    davidn

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by davidn on Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:28 pm

    tafftaz wrote:Heard on the grapevine that new rule changes are in progress.
    Leg grabs as a counter and against an over the top cross grip are permissible again.
    A step in the right direction if it is true.

    according to verbage from the ijf:

    All attacks or blocking with one or two hands or with one or two arms below the belt in Tachi-Waza will be penalized by Hansoku-make. It is possible to grip the leg only when the two opponents are in a clear Newaza position and the Tachi-Waza action has stopped.

    would seem not to be the case. i guess i'll see in 2 weeks as we have our first big tournament of the year on feb 9. i won't be taking that chance until I talk to the head referee.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:03 am

    There is a seminarcoming up shortly to discuss the implementation of the rule changes. As i said though, this was told to me by a current natioal coach who is bang up to date with ijf rules, especjally at international level.
    Will be interesting to see. How this pans out over the coming weeks.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:07 am

    tafftaz wrote:There is a seminarcoming up shortly to discuss the implementation of the rule changes. As i said though, this was told to me by a current natioal coach who is bang up to date with ijf rules, especjally at international level.
    Will be interesting to see. How this pans out over the coming weeks.

    I have not seen anything in writing regarding what you posted regarding rules changes. Not a peep, the only ones we got were the ones available in writing from the IJF.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:11 am

    Just passing on what I heard Ben. Our national coach was telling me and he is in the know. Not sure if anything is set in stone yet. He told me that a seminar is being held shortly to discuss the rule changes.
    As I said earlier, not 100 per cent sure but the news came from a higher authority than me.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:32 am

    tafftaz wrote:Just passing on what I heard Ben. Our national coach was telling me and he is in the know. Not sure if anything is set in stone yet. He told me that a seminar is being held shortly to discuss the rule changes.
    As I said earlier, not 100 per cent sure but the news came from a higher authority than me.

    I hear you...let us know what he has to say after that meeting.
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    FightingSpirit

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by FightingSpirit on Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:23 pm

    Here are a couple source documents that have surfaced so far (no mention of chg for leg grab exceptions):

    The IJF has made available some video clips that illustrate some practical examples of the refereeing rule changes at the following URL:
    http://refereeusb.judobase.org/
    New Referee Rules
    The same video clips are being distributed via DVD at clinics around the country.
    New IJF rule breakdown by the IJF
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz5kw_sN5hQ
    New IJF rule breakdown video


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:53 am

    Am off to a coaching seminar tomorrow and it is all about the new contest rules.
    So will let you all know how it goes.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:00 am

    tafftaz wrote:Am off to a coaching seminar tomorrow and it is all about the new contest rules.
    So will let you all know how it goes.

    Thanks a bunch in advance. Nothing new here on the other side of the pond so far. I've got the latest from Judo Canada at this point.


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:32 am

    Was an interesting day yesterday.
    The IJF video with Adams and Gamba outlines all the major rule changes.
    No touching below the belt area with any part of the arm. There are some exceptions but I would need to video the movement to show you rather than explain. I will get onto this in the week.
    No touching below belt unless both tori and uke are engaged in newaza.
    Newaza will be allowed to continue outside of the contest area as long as the actions are progressive and continuous.
    Any cross grip has to be followed by an immediate attack.
    Ippon will only be scored if there is impact. Rolling actions such as sumigaeshi will be scored wazaari.
    Ippon will be scored from what they call a "super ippon", if the technique is very good and uke has over rotated and landed on any one part of their back, rather than completely flat on the back.

    So in summary I was misinformed about leg grabs making a return but the Adams and Gamba video is the main IJF resource that is being shown and demonstrated at the seminars.


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    BillC

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by BillC on Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:02 am

    tafftaz wrote:
    Any cross grip has to be followed by an immediate attack.

    I wonder ... is a cross grip followed by a standard grip allowed? In other words, if one grabs first the opposite lapel in order to bring it in reach of a "standard grip" and that grip is taken, does it still run afoul of this interpretation?

    Seems to me from the video, one might think that this is implied.


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:52 am

    You can feed the lapel using both hands into a standard grip. This was one of the things I asked funny enough
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by nomoremondays on Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:17 am

    tafftaz wrote:
    Ippon will be scored from what they call a "super ippon", if the technique is very good and uke has over rotated and landed on any one part of their back, rather than completely flat on the back.


    Hi,

    I think I may have missed this. How would they differentiate between an uke who is over rotated due to superior control from tori and one who is in the midst of evasive action? Did they clarify?

    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:21 am

    When I say over rotate I do not mean completely spin out.
    The criteria for a "super ippon" score is that some spot of the back must have contact and impact with the mat. Say for instance uke lands on one side of his back as he is rotating.
    Hard for me to explain. I will either post a video or find a video resource for this particular kind of score.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by finarashi on Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:30 am

    This again seems to be the age old question of catching someone with the clean throw and someone creating a straw man to try to play the instance down. 'Super ippon' is one of those rare moments you see one Judoka catching another with the beautiful throw (e.g. uchimata) the only problem being that the uke does not end up completely on back.
    i.e. all non Judoka say "what was that!" and "That was awesome!" and all Judoka admitting
    "He was caught fair and square." and "He had no idea what hit him!"

    .. and then we have those irritating nitpickers claiming "The uke tried to overrotate to counter the throw ... " like he had any choise ...


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:11 am

    OK so nothing really new at this point, thanks Tafftaz !



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    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:17 pm

    One other thing I forgot to mention was that if tori has uke in his guard and has started to apply sangaku jime or juji gatame, uke cannot get a matte call if he/she stands up. If the referee thinks that a submission is imminent then he will let the attack continue. Also tori is within his rights to actually grab ukes leg to bring him back to the mat if uke tries to stand up while an attack is being applied. Same applies if tori is on ukes back in a turtle position and is attacking with a strangle/choke. If uke stands up to initiate matte the ref can let the attack go on at his discretion.

    Hope that makes sense.

    This is not shown on the IJF video so will make a brief video of things that are not shown on it shortly.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 am

    tafftaz wrote:One other thing I forgot to mention was that if tori has uke in his guard and has started to apply sangaku jime or juji gatame, uke cannot get a matte call if he/she stands up. If the referee thinks that a submission is imminent then he will let the attack continue. Also tori is within his rights to actually grab ukes leg to bring him back to the mat if uke tries to stand up while an attack is being applied. Same applies if tori is on ukes back in a turtle position and is attacking with a strangle/choke. If uke stands up to initiate matte the ref can let the attack go on at his discretion.

    Hope that makes sense.

    This is not shown on the IJF video so will make a brief video of things that are not shown on it shortly.

    Mate' should never have been called simply because uke stands up...if he lifts tori off the ground, yeah, mate'...

    Same with grabbing the leg to keep from being lifted or to control the guy...that's not been a penalty or anything for as long as I've done judo.

    The last thing is interesting. I'm wondering exactly what sort of situation they have in mind. If uke stands up, it's now a standing katame waza attack, which I though the IJF was severely limiting if not outright banning (standing chokes/armbars).

    As usual, we'll have to wait for some sort of clarification.

    Thanks again !


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    BillC

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by BillC on Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:13 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote: a standing katame waza attack, which I though the IJF was severely limiting if not outright banning (standing chokes/armbars).

    Really?  If true that would be another (insert favorite pejorative term expressing disapproval here).  Standing armbars and chokes have never been a high percentage move, presumably because they are difficult to execute properly and it's easier to defend against them ... therefore young athletes are not encouraged to spend a great deal of time working on them.

    Still, recently a fine US player who I won't name learned a lesson in "protect yourself at all times" when he lost to a standing udegatame. He's a nice kid, I am glad he learned the lesson even at the cost of a silly loss in shiai.

    These are the types of techniques that should be coming back into judo, not going further away.

    Judo by Tokyo 2020 ... a sad martial arts joke?


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:27 pm

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote: a standing katame waza attack, which I though the IJF was severely limiting if not outright banning (standing chokes/armbars).

    Really?  If true that would be another (insert favorite pejorative term expressing disapproval here).  Standing armbars and chokes have never been a high percentage move, presumably because they are difficult to execute properly and it's easier to defend against them ... therefore young athletes are not encouraged to spend a great deal of time working on them.

    Still, recently a fine US player who I won't name learned a lesson in "protect yourself at all times" when he lost to a standing udegatame.  He's a nice kid, I am glad he learned the lesson even at the cost of a silly loss in shiai.

    These are the types of techniques that should be coming back into judo, not going further away.

    Judo by Tokyo 2020 ... a sad martial arts joke?

    I'm not sure about the whole standing katame waza thing. I keep hearing different things from different people. Iv'e been told at shiai that they are no longer allowed. Who knows? I'm not teaching kids that stuff anyway.

    Anybody out there have a clue?



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    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by tafftaz on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:31 am

    Ben I meant mate being called when uke stands up and is trying to lift tori off the floor while tori is attacking.
    Trying to write an explanation is a nightmare. As for the standing katame/shimewaza the senior ijf referee taking the course stated that as long as tori is in a good attacking position and a submission could be gained fairly quickly, then standing up from guard while lifting the attacker will not get a mate called.

    still learning

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by still learning on Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:16 am

    tafftaz wrote:Ben I meant mate being called when uke stands up and is trying to lift tori off the floor while tori is attacking.
    Trying to write an explanation is a nightmare. As for the standing katame/shimewaza the senior ijf referee taking the course stated that as long as tori is in a good attacking position and a submission could be gained fairly quickly, then standing up from guard while lifting the attacker will not get a mate called.

    Do you mean that when tori attacks with a jujigatame from underneath and uke stands up lifting tori from the mat?
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    BillC

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    Re: Rule changes

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:30 am

    still learning wrote:
    tafftaz wrote:Ben I meant mate being called when uke stands up and is trying to lift tori off the floor while tori is attacking.
    Trying to write an explanation is a nightmare. As for the standing katame/shimewaza the senior ijf referee taking the course stated that as long as tori is in a good attacking position and a submission could be gained fairly quickly, then standing up from guard while lifting the attacker will not get a mate called.

    Do you mean that when tori attacks with a jujigatame from underneath and uke stands up lifting tori from the mat?

    Maybe we'll all go back to the requirement lift uke dakiage style to shoulder height? Good lesson for some not to endanger their arm, lessons for those who make a ridiculously weak "attack" in the first place.


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