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    Raj Venugopal

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    Being thrown

    Post by Raj Venugopal on Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:47 am

    You know, the amazing thing about judo is losing the fear of being thrown.
    We usually don't fear the force of hitting the mat, but rather the fact we were thrown.
    This is ego.
    But when we get thrown and no longer worry about it, judo is much more enjoyable.
    It does not matter who throws us, a yondan or a white belt.
    And in being thrown we learn how not to get thrown, which means we improve.
    So really, it is humility that allows us to improve our judo, and our character.
    This judo stuff has been making a lot more sense to me lately.
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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by NittyRanks on Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:00 am

    I am always more scared of a beginner throwing me in a screwed up way than anything else. It put me in physical therapy for 6 months once.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:35 am

    NittyRanks wrote:I am always more scared of a beginner throwing me in a screwed up way than anything else. It put me in physical therapy for 6 months once.

    Egotist...
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:12 am

    NittyRanks wrote:I am always more scared of a beginner throwing me in a screwed up way than anything else. It put me in physical therapy for 6 months once.

    Yep, I'll let a skilled dude throw me all day, a good judoka can throw you without harm, they are a rare find though

    GregW

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by GregW on Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:42 am

    There are a couple of falls in judo that give me a healthy fear even as a black belt. My son (he's as big as I am) and I were practicing NNK and he dropped me while doing kataguruma. I've been a little shaky over that one ever since.

    Another time, also practicing NNK, a guy didn't get uranage right and I landed somehow with his arm under mine and it left me with the biggest bruise I ever had. I looked like I had been in a car wreck.

    By far; however, the scariest fall for me was my sensei's tsurikomi goshi. He was strong enough to lock the tsurite arm and lift me completely off my feet before doing kake. He had total control--so I never got hurt from it--but it was scary because my head would be well up over seven feet in the air and I was unable to see the ground before plummeting earthward.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:19 pm

    GregW wrote:There are a couple of falls in judo that give me a healthy fear even as a black belt.  My son (he's as big as I am) and I were practicing NNK and he dropped me while doing kataguruma.  I've been a little shaky over that one ever since.  

    Another time, also practicing NNK, a guy didn't get uranage right and I landed somehow with his arm under mine and it left me with the biggest bruise I ever had.  I looked like I had been in a car wreck.

    By far; however, the scariest fall for me was my sensei's tsurikomi goshi.  He was strong enough to lock the tsurite arm and lift me completely off my feet before doing kake.  He had total control--so I never got hurt from it--but it was scary because my head would be well up over seven feet in the air and I was unable to see the ground before plummeting earthward.


    Yeah, this one's of my favorite one's (to carry out, that is, not to undergo) ...





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    samsmith2424

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by samsmith2424 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:07 am

    I think that is ippon today.

    Raj Venugopal

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Raj Venugopal on Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:47 am

    So for all of you... the body takes a bruising. Yes. Absolutely! But does the ego as well?
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:29 am

    Raj Venugopal wrote:So for all of you... the body takes a bruising. Yes. Absolutely! But does the ego as well?


    No, not when you have reached 11th dan ...




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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Davaro

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Davaro on Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:25 am

    I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:36 am

    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....




    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Davaro

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Davaro on Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:42 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....



    Self-portrait CK Sensei?


    _________________
    Dew wrote:
    We could have a poll - but if the majority vote for "Judo roly poly" its going to ignite fascist dictatorlike tendencies lurking within me.


    http://www.saizenjudo.wozaonline.co.za/
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:19 am

    Davaro wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....



    Self-portrait CK Sensei?

    Na-aah, I have more hair than that and I don't irradiate Been-Gay fumes either. I also would never appear in gi without a yellow pointy hat.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Heisenberg

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Heisenberg on Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:33 pm

    An experienced tori completes his throws with sufficient force, speed, and control while beginners have little control and often bail out with uke in mid air, leaving uke to find their own way down. That's the only real difference I can tell. But, they've got to learn somehow.


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    finarashi

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by finarashi on Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:50 pm

    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....
    Only twice have I got hurt from being thrown. Both were when trying to help big 3rd kuy holders to master koshi-waza. It does not matter if you know how to do ukemi when the tori skilfully steers you to land your shoulder first.


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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by NittyRanks on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:36 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NittyRanks wrote:I am always more scared of a beginner throwing me in a screwed up way than anything else. It put me in physical therapy for 6 months once.

    Egotist...

    How so?
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:58 am

    NittyRanks wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NittyRanks wrote:I am always more scared of a beginner throwing me in a screwed up way than anything else. It put me in physical therapy for 6 months once.

    Egotist...

    How so?

    Irony...
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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by NittyRanks on Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:32 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NittyRanks wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NittyRanks wrote:I am always more scared of a beginner throwing me in a screwed up way than anything else. It put me in physical therapy for 6 months once.

    Egotist...

    How so?

    Irony...

    Ben can you elaborate? I am only saying that a lot of guys in Judo I have met always say that being thrown by a beginner is something that can kind of suck.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:48 am

    NittyRanks wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NittyRanks wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NittyRanks wrote:I am always more scared of a beginner throwing me in a screwed up way than anything else. It put me in physical therapy for 6 months once.

    Egotist...

    How so?

    Irony...



    Ben can you elaborate? I am only saying that a lot of guys in Judo I have met always say that being thrown by a beginner is something that can kind of suck.

    I confounded your post with the original post that started the thread, hence my irony comment. So it was out of context no doubt !

    Egotist you can figure out, try sarcasm on for size relative to the first post.

    Seriously, I think your original post is pretty sensible, and something to consider when training.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:49 am

    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....

    You have clearly taken way to many falls onto your head, my sarcasm detector is broken.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:52 am

    finarashi wrote:
    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....
    Only twice have I got hurt from being thrown. Both were when trying to help big 3rd kuy holders to master koshi-waza. It does not matter if you know how to do ukemi when the tori skilfully steers you to land your shoulder first.

    Is that the shoulder of your ego or your physical shoulder?
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:09 am

    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....


    Ben, me and a few others recently were discussing nage-komi on this forum, and so I was doing an experiment with it during teaching. I put my students in a circle, and one student had to go around the circle throwing everyone, followed by the next student doing the same. In this way I had a good opportunity watching all of them. There was no doubt that it were the white belts who were causing the most problems, due to lack of control and lack of coordination. A couple of specifics:

    - ô-soto-gari was often "kicking the leg" of the opponent because there was no kuzushi, or because their toes were pointing upwards
    - several black belts hurt themselves slightly because the white belts would forget to hold on to them hence the trajectory of the fall was not smooth but abberrant, and despite their relative experience some of the black belts could insufficiently correct for the lack of coordination of their opponent during the falling process.
    - Because of the lack of coordination, lack of control, lack of kuzushi, lack of debana, the throw is aberrant in the time it takes, in the trajectory, in where the fulcrum is put, in direction, lacks smoothness, and lacks jû; the lack of jû is important and creates wrong throws and the wrong moment, superficial movements that resemble a throw but aren't the throw because they lack undrstanding the principle. Sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi and hiza-guruma instead become kicks in the shin.

    All the blackbelts who I typically choose as uke to demonstrate something prefer being thrown by me instead of another student, even though I tend to throw hard. I always ask them if they are going to be OK, as they might have an impairment I don't know about, but they have confidence in me, even if it is a rare thrown they have never heard of or never fallen. They have confidence in that they will be thrown properly and will be able to fall properly. For example, I have never thrown anyone with ura-nage on his shoulder because I know how to do the throw, and what the mechanism is. But try teaching the throw to someone, and assume there are no crashmats. It's tricky, they don't yet know how to do everything and where to apply support/force and to what extent.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:05 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....


    Ben, me and a few others recently were discussing nage-komi on this forum, and so I was doing an experiment with it during teaching. I put my students in a circle, and one student had to go around the circle throwing everyone, followed by the next student doing the same. In this way I had a good opportunity watching all of them. There was no doubt that it were the white belts who were causing the most problems, due to lack of control and lack of coordination. A couple of specifics:

    - ô-soto-gari was often "kicking the leg" of the opponent because there was no kuzushi, or because their toes were pointing upwards
    - several black belts hurt themselves slightly because the white belts would forget to hold on to them hence the trajectory of the fall was not smooth but aberrant, and despite their relative experience some of the black belts could insufficiently correct for the lack of coordination of their opponent during the falling process.
    - Because of the lack of coordination, lack of control, lack of kuzushi, lack of debana, the throw is aberrant in the time it takes, in the trajectory, in where the fulcrum is put, in direction, lacks smoothness, and lacks jû; the lack of jû is important and creates wrong throws and the wrong moment, superficial movements that resemble a throw but aren't the throw because they lack understanding the principle. Sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi and hiza-guruma instead become kicks in the shin.

    All the black belts who I typically choose as uke to demonstrate something prefer being thrown by me instead of another student, even though I tend to throw hard. I always ask them if they are going to be OK, as they might have an impairment I don't know about, but they have confidence in me, even if it is a rare thrown they have never heard of or never fallen. They have confidence in that they will be thrown properly and will be able to fall properly. For example, I have never thrown anyone with ura-nage on his shoulder because I know how to do the throw, and what the mechanism is. But try teaching the throw to someone, and assume there are no crash mats. It's tricky, they don't yet know how to do everything and where to apply support/force and to what extent.

    I've made similar observations over the years.

    The question becomes, how does one train students in order to minimize the issues/problems ? There are a lot of issues involved, from age/skill level/ appropriate skills to inculcating the concept of Jita Kyoei into the culture of the class/club from the start. Physically the key to that I have found is teaching control; control of one's one body, and control of one's own body and uke body. Other things are of course very important as well, but from a safety point of view, control is key. Like everything else, control is learned in increments, from the simple to the complex.







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    NittyRanks

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by NittyRanks on Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:31 am

    OK I see what you mean. I have no bone to pick. Ben I don't know you personally but know of your skill level.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:41 am

    NittyRanks wrote:OK I see what you mean. I have no bone to pick. Ben I don't know you personally but know of your skill level.

    My skill level at being a smart-ass online is only surpassed by skill at being a smart-ass in person. According to my parents, I have been practicing since birth.

    My skill level at judo has deteriorated, however, I still talk a good game.


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