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    Being thrown

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    Davaro

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Davaro on Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:11 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....


    Ben, me and a few others recently were discussing nage-komi on this forum, and so I was doing an experiment with it during teaching. I put my students in a circle, and one student had to go around the circle throwing everyone, followed by the next student doing the same. In this way I had a good opportunity watching all of them. There was no doubt that it were the white belts who were causing the most problems, due to lack of control and lack of coordination. A couple of specifics:

    - ô-soto-gari was often "kicking the leg" of the opponent because there was no kuzushi, or because their toes were pointing upwards
    - several black belts hurt themselves slightly because the white belts would forget to hold on to them hence the trajectory of the fall was not smooth but abberrant, and despite their relative experience some of the black belts could insufficiently correct for the lack of coordination of their opponent during the falling process.
    - Because of the lack of coordination, lack of control, lack of kuzushi, lack of debana, the throw is aberrant in the time it takes, in the trajectory, in where the fulcrum is put, in direction, lacks smoothness, and lacks jû; the lack of jû is important and creates wrong throws and the wrong moment, superficial movements that resemble a throw but aren't the throw because they lack undrstanding the principle. Sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi and hiza-guruma instead become kicks in the shin.

    All the blackbelts who I typically choose as uke to demonstrate something prefer being thrown by me instead of another student, even though I tend to throw hard. I always ask them if they are going to be OK, as they might have an impairment I don't know about, but they have confidence in me, even if it is a rare thrown they have never heard of or never fallen. They have confidence in that they will be thrown properly and will be able to fall properly. For example, I have never thrown anyone with ura-nage on his shoulder because I know how to do the throw, and what the mechanism is. But try teaching the throw to someone, and assume there are no crashmats. It's tricky, they don't yet know how to do everything and where to apply support/force and to what extent.

    That's fair comment.

    Perhaps I have just been lucky but Ive never been "hurt" by a junior throwing me and I don't hesitate to rather be the uki for a junior than letting same practice on someone not very good at falling. I guess that's what I meant? I don't mind taking those harsh falls because I can anticipate them and deal with it accordingly...

    I agree 100% that a senior would be able to throw with more control. That goes without saying.

    The only significant injury I have ever had (besides the toes and fingers) was a blown AC joint caused when I landed on my shoulder after scoring Ippon with a ko-soto-gake of all things...


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    Davaro

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Davaro on Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:17 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....

    You have clearly taken way to many falls onto your head, my sarcasm detector is broken.

    Mmmmm... Clearly your "giving offence where none-is-intended" detector is also broken... Or perhaps its your head that's damaged causing said detector to be broken. *insert whatever witty emoticon you wish*


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    Dew wrote:
    We could have a poll - but if the majority vote for "Judo roly poly" its going to ignite fascist dictatorlike tendencies lurking within me.


    http://www.saizenjudo.wozaonline.co.za/
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:51 am

    Davaro wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Davaro wrote:I cant understand this concept of people saying they don't like beginners throwing them.

    Not to nit-pick, but surely if you practice proper ukemi, it should not matter? I don't give a hoot who throws me because I know how to fall. I think?

    As the senior instructor in my club, I would always put myself "at risk" for a new adult student to try their first throws on. Because I know how to take ukemi better than anyone else in the club.

    Anyway... as the OP says, it does, or should not matter WHO throws you....

    You have clearly taken way to many falls onto your head, my sarcasm detector is broken.

    Mmmmm... Clearly your "giving offence where none-is-intended" detector is also broken... Or perhaps its your head that's damaged causing said detector to be broken. *insert whatever witty emoticon you wish*

    I'm a broken man, what else can I say ?
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ricebale on Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:32 am

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:54 am

    Ricebale wrote:


    Hey, that's my sensei !  Shocked 


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:56 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:


    Hey, that's my sensei !   Shocked 

    Fess up, CK, that was you !
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:49 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Fess up, CK, that was you !

    Hey, hey, I'm just back home from having taught our group of 6-8 year old kids !

    I am always nice, but you gotta admit, sometimes one meets these dogs ...



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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:16 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Fess up, CK, that was you !

    Hey, hey, I'm just back home from having taught our group of 6-8 year old kids !

    I am always nice, but you gotta admit, sometimes one meets these dogs ...


    Please have several drinks to relax...


    DrewFleming

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by DrewFleming on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:36 pm

    Raj Venugopal wrote:You know, the amazing thing about judo is losing the fear of being thrown.
    We usually don't fear the force of hitting the mat, but rather the fact we were thrown.
    This is ego.
    But when we get thrown and no longer worry about it, judo is much more enjoyable.
    It does not matter who throws us, a yondan or a white belt.
    And in being thrown we learn how not to get thrown, which means we improve.
    So really, it is humility that allows us to improve our judo, and our character.
    This judo stuff has been making a lot more sense to me lately.

    This is why Ukemi is so important, no matter what so called competition coaches say, if you have no fear of falling you can attack with no fear. Kotani said practice hard, be strong but always remember your ukemi... if ukemi is good enough for him ... it's good enough for me...
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:49 am

    DrewFleming wrote:
    Raj Venugopal wrote:You know, the amazing thing about judo is losing the fear of being thrown.
    We usually don't fear the force of hitting the mat, but rather the fact we were thrown.
    This is ego.
    But when we get thrown and no longer worry about it, judo is much more enjoyable.
    It does not matter who throws us, a yondan or a white belt.
    And in being thrown we learn how not to get thrown, which means we improve.
    So really, it is humility that allows us to improve our judo, and our character.
    This judo stuff has been making a lot more sense to me lately.

    This is why Ukemi is so important, no matter what so called competition coaches say, if you have no fear of falling you can attack with no fear. Kotani said practice hard, be strong but always remember your ukemi... if ukemi is good enough for him ... it's good enough for me...

    I'm a competition coach and I think being good at ukemi is critical....you might be surprised at how few think ukemi is not important.

    Plus, if someone has good ukemi waza from earlier judo training, there is not so much need to practice it a lot as a competitor.

    Don't get me wrong, I do get your point.


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    DrewFleming

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by DrewFleming on Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:57 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    DrewFleming wrote:
    Raj Venugopal wrote:You know, the amazing thing about judo is losing the fear of being thrown.
    We usually don't fear the force of hitting the mat, but rather the fact we were thrown.
    This is ego.
    But when we get thrown and no longer worry about it, judo is much more enjoyable.
    It does not matter who throws us, a yondan or a white belt.
    And in being thrown we learn how not to get thrown, which means we improve.
    So really, it is humility that allows us to improve our judo, and our character.
    This judo stuff has been making a lot more sense to me lately.

    This is why Ukemi is so important, no matter what so called competition coaches say, if you have no fear of falling you can attack with no fear. Kotani said practice hard, be strong but always remember your ukemi... if ukemi is good enough for him ... it's good enough for me...

    I'm a competition coach and I think being good at ukemi is critical....you might be surprised at how few think ukemi is not important.

    Plus, if someone has good ukemi waza from earlier judo training, there is not so much need to practice it a lot as a competitor.

    Don't get me wrong, I do get your point.

    Exactly.. when a competitor doesnt have to worry about being injured by being thrown he can compete at maximum... Ukemi is very important... anyone that think its just mat beating has a problem, and probably is not a very good coach (sorry that should be teacher)..
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:32 am

    DrewFleming wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    DrewFleming wrote:
    Raj Venugopal wrote:You know, the amazing thing about judo is losing the fear of being thrown.
    We usually don't fear the force of hitting the mat, but rather the fact we were thrown.
    This is ego.
    But when we get thrown and no longer worry about it, judo is much more enjoyable.
    It does not matter who throws us, a yondan or a white belt.
    And in being thrown we learn how not to get thrown, which means we improve.
    So really, it is humility that allows us to improve our judo, and our character.
    This judo stuff has been making a lot more sense to me lately.

    This is why Ukemi is so important, no matter what so called competition coaches say, if you have no fear of falling you can attack with no fear. Kotani said practice hard, be strong but always remember your ukemi... if ukemi is good enough for him ... it's good enough for me...

    I'm a competition coach and I think being good at ukemi is critical....you might be surprised at how few think ukemi is not important.

    Plus, if someone has good ukemi waza from earlier judo training, there is not so much need to practice it a lot as a competitor.

    Don't get me wrong, I do get your point.

    Exactly.. when a competitor doesnt have to worry about being injured by being thrown he can compete at maximum... Ukemi is very important... anyone that think its just mat beating has a problem, and probably is not a very good coach (sorry that should be teacher)..

    You mean worry about being injured while being thrown I assume. None of them want to be thrown !

    Good ukemi does not require mat beating (carpet bashing) in any case. Doesn't happen much at elite levels of competition.





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    BillC

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:06 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Good ukemi does not require mat beating (carpet bashing) in any case. Doesn't happen much at elite levels of competition.


    What you just wrote got me interested in this snore of a thread.  I am going to climb on your comment above.

    Probably one could look and find that a couple of things are true.  First, as athletic as "elite competitors" need to be, with all the cartwheels and bridges to evade being thrown on their backs, I don't think traditional ukemi eludes them at all.  Nor are many much interested ... heck I'd venture that a great number of them are not only training not to fall on their back, they are training to bridge sideways to keep from being scored against with yuko ... spiral fracture to the humerus being a risk they (or more likely their coaches) are willing to accept.  Let's forget head posting for the moment.  My neighbor up the road in San Diego can relax, competitors are no longer "training to lose" as he once put it.

    Second, and I think Ben you might agree that a throw used in judo competition, performed well by an experienced judoka, is unlikely to injure even a complete novice*.  Thrown on the back, with control speed and force, sure the wind might get knocked out but the safety of a competitive technique is kind of the point.  Insert here the famous story of Kano-shihan holding the head of some big gaijin after throwing him with ukigoshi.  Injuries occur because something is missing ... tori does not have complete control of uke, the throw is not well done, etc.  Yes, dear judo myth believers, even on concrete.  Might bruise, stun, and make someone sore the next day, not going to kill them.

    So what good is ukemi?

    Ukemi, as our delicate friends in aikido put it, is about surviving.  Ukemi is an escape, a chance to live to fight another day.  That's because their techniques, and many of ours if people learned them properly ... or at all ... are not polite deposits to the large part of the back.  They are face-plants, dumps to the top of the head, slams across or into the knee, arm removal services, etc.  One takes the fall onto the back as a way of not being maimed or dying.  But this is only true for a martial art.

    So one can indeed argue that ukemi as taught is an anachronism, something not properly tuned to sport, or at best something learned only to help one's partner train, something to be abandoned when doing "real judo."

    * Edit: Yes, I am aware that some throws, such as osotogari, are head injury risks in the best of circumstances, and that an osotogari by the throat taken to concrete is a death blow. But that is the exception rather than the rule, and the intent of judo competition excludes serious injury rather than serious injury being the goal.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:55 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Good ukemi does not require mat beating (carpet bashing) in any case. Doesn't happen much at elite levels of competition.


    What you just wrote got me interested in this snore of a thread.  I am going to climb on your comment above.

    Probably one could look and find that a couple of things are true.  First, as athletic as "elite competitors" need to be, with all the cartwheels and bridges to evade being thrown on their backs, I don't think traditional ukemi eludes them at all.  Nor are many much interested ... heck I'd venture that a great number of them are not only training not to fall on their back, they are training to bridge sideways to keep from being scored against with yuko ... spiral fracture to the humerus being a risk they (or more likely their coaches) are willing to accept.  Let's forget head posting for the moment.  My neighbor up the road in San Diego can relax, competitors are no longer "training to lose" as he once put it.

    Second, and I think Ben you might agree that a throw used in judo competition, performed well by an experienced judoka, is unlikely to injure even a complete novice*.  Thrown on the back, with control speed and force, sure the wind might get knocked out but the safety of a competitive technique is kind of the point.  Insert here the famous story of Kano-shihan holding the head of some big gaijin after throwing him with ukigoshi.  Injuries occur because something is missing ... tori does not have complete control of uke, the throw is not well done, etc.  Yes, dear judo myth believers, even on concrete.  Might bruise, stun, and make someone sore the next day, not going to kill them.

    So what good is ukemi?

    Ukemi, as our delicate friends in aikido put it, is about surviving.  Ukemi is an escape, a chance to live to fight another day.  That's because their techniques, and many of ours if people learned them properly ... or at all ... are not polite deposits to the large part of the back.  They are face-plants, dumps to the top of the head, slams across or into the knee, arm removal services, etc.  One takes the fall onto the back as a way of not being maimed or dying.  But this is only true for a martial art.

    So one can indeed argue that ukemi as taught is an anachronism, something not properly tuned to sport, or at best something learned only to help one's partner train, something to be abandoned when doing "real judo."

    *  Edit:  Yes, I am aware that some throws, such as osotogari, are head injury risks in the best of circumstances,  and that an osotogari by the throat taken to concrete is a death blow.  But that is the exception rather than the rule, and the intent of judo competition excludes serious injury rather than serious injury being the goal.

    First off, to be clear, I think learning the style of ukemi we do in "standard" Judo is an integral part of being "good" at Judo. I tell all of my students who aspire to test for shodan that no one from our dojo will EVER go to be examined by a promotional board unless their ukemi is up to that level, at least if I have anything to do with it. I do not think ukemi as we normally teach is an anachronism at all. I know and respect your "neighbor up the road in San Diego", however, I've never agreed with his POV about traditional ukemi being "learning to lose". Hyperbole is a form of rhetoric with which he is very familiar...

    Just like all of Judo, there is a continuum of difficulty and type/purpose for ukemi. From the basic stuff everyone (should) learn, to gymnastics, turnouts, etc. that are necessary for higher levels of competition (as last ditch escapes). Those sorts of things are a type of ukemi in and of themselves, albeit at times more risky than just "taking the fall". Learning "traditional" ukemi and being good at it does not preclude the other types more related to competition.


    As you point out, we are not trying to injure each other in judo shiai, even at highest levels (although of course that does happen), but for the most part it's not what judoka are doing. The target is the back and ukemi is possible...there's good reason that face first throwing is not scored and in some cases can be penalized severely.

    And sometimes all the gymnastics in the world won't save you...I'm sure if Nic had never done carpet bashing he could have escaped somehow...






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    tafftaz

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    Re: Being thrown

    Post by tafftaz on Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:53 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Good ukemi does not require mat beating (carpet bashing) in any case. Doesn't happen much at elite levels of competition.


    What you just wrote got me interested in this snore of a thread.  I am going to climb on your comment above.

    Probably one could look and find that a couple of things are true.  First, as athletic as "elite competitors" need to be, with all the cartwheels and bridges to evade being thrown on their backs, I don't think traditional ukemi eludes them at all.  Nor are many much interested ... heck I'd venture that a great number of them are not only training not to fall on their back, they are training to bridge sideways to keep from being scored against with yuko ... spiral fracture to the humerus being a risk they (or more likely their coaches) are willing to accept.  Let's forget head posting for the moment.  My neighbor up the road in San Diego can relax, competitors are no longer "training to lose" as he once put it.

    Second, and I think Ben you might agree that a throw used in judo competition, performed well by an experienced judoka, is unlikely to injure even a complete novice*.  Thrown on the back, with control speed and force, sure the wind might get knocked out but the safety of a competitive technique is kind of the point.  Insert here the famous story of Kano-shihan holding the head of some big gaijin after throwing him with ukigoshi.  Injuries occur because something is missing ... tori does not have complete control of uke, the throw is not well done, etc.  Yes, dear judo myth believers, even on concrete.  Might bruise, stun, and make someone sore the next day, not going to kill them.

    So what good is ukemi?

    Ukemi, as our delicate friends in aikido put it, is about surviving.  Ukemi is an escape, a chance to live to fight another day.  That's because their techniques, and many of ours if people learned them properly ... or at all ... are not polite deposits to the large part of the back.  They are face-plants, dumps to the top of the head, slams across or into the knee, arm removal services, etc.  One takes the fall onto the back as a way of not being maimed or dying.  But this is only true for a martial art.

    So one can indeed argue that ukemi as taught is an anachronism, something not properly tuned to sport, or at best something learned only to help one's partner train, something to be abandoned when doing "real judo."

    *  Edit:  Yes, I am aware that some throws, such as osotogari, are head injury risks in the best of circumstances,  and that an osotogari by the throat taken to concrete is a death blow.  But that is the exception rather than the rule, and the intent of judo competition excludes serious injury rather than serious injury being the goal.

    First off, to be clear, I think learning the style of  ukemi we do in "standard" Judo is an integral part of being "good" at Judo. I tell all of my students who aspire to test for shodan that no one from our dojo will EVER go to be examined by a promotional board unless their ukemi is up to that level, at least if I have anything to do with it. I do not think ukemi as we normally teach is an anachronism at all. I know and respect your "neighbor up the road in San Diego", however, I've never agreed with his POV about traditional ukemi being "learning to lose". Hyperbole is a form of rhetoric with which he is very familiar...

    Just like all of Judo, there is a continuum of difficulty and type/purpose for ukemi. From the basic stuff everyone (should) learn, to gymnastics, turnouts, etc. that are necessary for higher levels of competition (as last ditch escapes). Those sorts of things are a type of ukemi in and of themselves, albeit at times more risky than just "taking the fall".  Learning "traditional" ukemi and being good at it does not preclude the other types more related to competition.


    As you point out, we are not trying to injure each other in judo shiai, even at highest levels (although of course that does happen), but for the most part it's not what judoka are doing. The target is the back and ukemi is possible...there's good reason that face first throwing is not scored and in some cases can be penalized severely.

    And sometimes all the gymnastics in the world won't save you...I'm sure if Nic had never done carpet bashing he could have escaped somehow...





    Still one of the finest throws I have ever seen

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