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    New qualification requirements for US judo players.

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    Judokid1

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    New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by Judokid1 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:08 am

    I love judo, but I seem to have drifted away from it slightly in the past few years . After speaking to friends, former teammates and etc., I've learned that many things have changed, and a lot of new elements have been implemented into the sport. For example ; qualification requirements , and how it's now harder to qualify for an Olympic spot.

    I remember around the 90's and early 2000's  you did your usual tournaments like Nationals, US Open, Rendez-Vous , NY Open, Fall Classic , throw in maybe a South American tournament , maybe two European tour  "A" tournaments, and that was good enough to get you points in the top 5 for the trials. Back then I'm sure this sufficed for a lot of average to elite level/national level fighters in the US.

    But now it seems things have changed. Besides Nationals , I'm hearing none of those other tournaments I listed don't even matter anymore.  Rendez-Vous has been cancelled for years, US Open isn't what it use to be  , NY Open is a team tournament now and etc.  

    What happened to all these classic tournaments ? Are the World Cups and other "A" or "A+" events   the only competitions  that matter now,  toward qualification ?
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    Stacey

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by Stacey on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:56 am

    No, you can still get B, C, D, and E points, and they will count. There's a list of them over at USA Judo (former USJI). It's just that we now have plenty of athletes who are capable of competing at the A and A+ levels. Yes, it puts more of a burden on others to do Grand Prix events and to spend the time and money doing international competitions, but then they have the experience necessary to compete at that level as a result. While not the best system, and while the funding of athletes still really sucks, it has produced a number of medals, and a number of US judoka ranked in the top 20 in the world. Can't say we had a ton of those in the 90's.
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    finarashi

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by finarashi on Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:36 pm

    Plus now you have to earn your place in the Olympics personally doing international competitions. Not just beating your team mate at the trials.


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    BillC

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by BillC on Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:22 pm

    finarashi wrote:Plus now you have to earn your place in the Olympics personally doing international competitions. Not just beating your team mate at the trials.

    Which is why ... and not just in judo ... the entire Olympic movement has lost its charm for me. More than that, the entire endeavor is morally questionable for multiple reasons.


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    Judokid1

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by Judokid1 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:29 pm

    With the way the tournaments have changed since years back, I'm wondering how our US Judo players are managing to spend all this money to go overseas for all these "A" and "A+" competitions. Is the USJI funding the top players with stipends or something of that sort? I'm sure it must be alot of money traveling like that....

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    FightingSpirit

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by FightingSpirit on Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:07 pm

    “Plus now you have to earn your place in the Olympics personally doing international competitions. Not just beating your team mate at the trials.
    ... even professors make mistakes!”

    Seems that COST should be a major factor for consideration to ensure the best of the best are afforded an equitable opportunity to qualify…  
    “Not just beating your teammate at the trials.” Seems to belittle the NOC National Championship qualification requirement for the vast majority of other Olympic sports.  Something to be said for equitable cost for all Olympic sport contenders.
    There also seems to be some disparity between the Olympic sports that employ Weight Classification Systems with varying qualification requirements.
    Seems Taekwondo, and Boxing use a combination of rankings, championship title holders, and continental qualifying events for their Olympic Qualification requirements.  
    The major point being that even these more elaborate systems, than “just beating your teammate at the trials” are more affordable means for their Olympic Prospects to qualify for the Olympics that the current COST PROHIBITIVE method implemented by the IJF.
    Olympic Boxing Qualification System
    Olympic Boxing Qualification System
    Olympic Taekwondo Qualification System
    Olympic Taekwondo Qualification System


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    BillC

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by BillC on Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:20 pm

    FightingSpirit wrote:
    “Plus now you have to earn your place in the Olympics personally doing international competitions. Not just beating your team mate at the trials.
    ... even professors make mistakes!”

    Seems that COST should be a major factor for consideration to ensure the best of the best are afforded an equitable opportunity to qualify…  
    “Not just beating your teammate at the trials.” Seems to belittle the NOC National Championship qualification requirement for the vast majority of other Olympic sports.  Something to be said for equitable cost for all Olympic sport contenders.
    There also seems to be some disparity between the Olympic sports that employ Weight Classification Systems with varying qualification requirements.
    Seems Taekwondo, and Boxing use a combination of rankings, championship title holders, and continental qualifying events for their Olympic Qualification requirements.  
    The major point being that even these more elaborate systems, than “just beating your teammate at the trials” are more affordable means for their Olympic Prospects to qualify for the Olympics that the current COST PROHIBITIVE method implemented by the IJF.
    Olympic Boxing Qualification System
    Olympic Boxing Qualification System
    Olympic Taekwondo Qualification System
    Olympic Taekwondo Qualification System

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    Davaro

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by Davaro on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:14 am

    BillC wrote:
    finarashi wrote:Plus now you have to earn your place in the Olympics personally doing international competitions. Not just beating your team mate at the trials.

    Which is why ... and not just in judo ... the entire Olympic movement has lost its charm for me.  More than that, the entire endeavor is morally questionable for multiple reasons.

    Cant agree more. Events such as the Olympics should be about representing your country only. If you are the best in your country at any given sport, you should qualify. Even if it only the best person in said division etc. Or best team, or whatever.

    Why be forced to get "points" in Europe, or at the "grand slam/prix" type events? The Olympic spirit is far from what it once was. You SHOULD thus qualify by simply beating your countrymen and being the best in your country.

    So what if young Sipho from a small village in South Botswana, while being the best in his country in swimming (he may even be the only swimmer there) is lapped in a 50m event? Point being, he should be allowed to represent his country on the world stage.

    Leave the qualification standards for World Championships where the aim is to find the best in the World competing against each other at the outset.

    At the Olympics, that will happen anyway where Le Clos will swim in the finals against Phelps (to continue in the swimming lane, so to speak)


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    BillC

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:39 am

    Davaro wrote:

    Cant agree more. Events such as the Olympics should be about representing your country only. If you are the best in your country at any given sport, you should qualify. Even if it only the best person in said division etc. Or best team, or whatever.

    Why be forced to get "points" in Europe, or at the "grand slam/prix" type events? The Olympic spirit is far from what it once was. You SHOULD thus qualify by simply beating your countrymen and being the best in your country.

    So what if young Sipho from a small village in South Botswana, while being the best in his country in swimming (he may even be the only swimmer there) is lapped in a 50m event? Point being, he should be allowed to represent his country on the world stage.

    Leave the qualification standards for World Championships where the aim is to find the best in the World competing against each other at the outset.

    At the Olympics, that will happen anyway where Le Clos will swim in the finals against Phelps (to continue in the swimming lane, so to speak)

    But don't look for Olympic judo to change soon.  The IJF is by definition about the Olympics, and the Olympics is a sports entertainment business.  And the sports entertainment business is about getting money out of public hands into private hands.  Nothing short of profitable spectacle will do.  Nor should it, it's a business, subject to all kinds of ideas about money, morality and the law.

    And our friends in Japan?  They just went all in to host the Olympics in 2020, judo being the one "sport" that they have introduced to the Games.  One more giant public works project the Japanese people are funding through their taxes and their debt.  That said, they also have no control at all over the IJF except shame.  Unlikely that a position against what the Olympics has become will be coming from that quarter ... what, someone is going to say "we officially take the position that this is a colossal misuse of money?"[/quote]


    Last edited by BillC on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:30 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    FightingSpirit

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by FightingSpirit on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:07 pm

    BillC wrote:

    What, you don't believe in free markets?  What's wrong with pay to play?  What are you FS, some kinda communist?   bom 

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    finarashi

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by finarashi on Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:22 pm

    Davaro wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    finarashi wrote:Plus now you have to earn your place in the Olympics personally doing international competitions. Not just beating your team mate at the trials.

    Which is why ... and not just in judo ... the entire Olympic movement has lost its charm for me.  More than that, the entire endeavor is morally questionable for multiple reasons.

    Cant agree more. Events such as the Olympics should be about representing your country only. If you are the best in your country at any given sport, you should qualify. Even if it only the best person in said division etc. Or best team, or whatever.

    Why be forced to get "points" in Europe, or at the "grand slam/prix" type events? The Olympic spirit is far from what it once was. You SHOULD thus qualify by simply beating your countrymen and being the best in your country.

    So what if young Sipho from a small village in South Botswana, while being the best in his country in swimming (he may even be the only swimmer there) is lapped in a 50m event? Point being, he should be allowed to represent his country on the world stage.

    Leave the qualification standards for World Championships where the aim is to find the best in the World competing against each other at the outset.

    At the Olympics, that will happen anyway where Le Clos will swim in the finals against Phelps (to continue in the swimming lane, so to speak)

    In early Olympics you could represent your country if you showed up in the morning of the competition. But now when the OC pays your tickets, gives you your outfit, houses you, feeds you and also your coach and your team leader then maybe it is right that not everybody who wants can qualify.

    Note that even now it is easier for someone to qualify to Judo from say e.g. Singapore than from US


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    xjej

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by xjej on Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:52 am

    Current way to qualify for OG is still better than previous anyway.
    Given slots for some continental area were a really bad thing. One team mate of mine made it to Athens in 2004 for being from Africa while, if he had to qualify trough European area he would be nowhere able to do that.
    The biggest problem is the will to keep the amount of partecipants limited. For obvious reasons we cant have too many partecipants per category, yet having them of 64 players could probably be survivable (for sure not above that number) which would make thing little better.
    Still, if we wanna make the qualification based on geographical areas (to save from the need of travelling ) any kind of criteria I can think of would make it unfair for someone else (I have a friend who did not make it for OG trough european rank list for 2 points.. )
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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by BillC on Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:11 am

    Yeah, see ... there's the fundamental problem. If one assumes that the Olympics should feature the "best" competitors worldwide then one takes on a completely different task ... an impossible one in my opinion. As noted there is not enough time for everyone to play everyone and to sort out the contradictions such an arrangement might bring.

    Do we want to go into why the gold medal winner might not even be the best player on that day? Probably not. It's obvious.

    So for people that reject to gold medal myth the remaining reason to be at all interested might be a local kid going off to some country in order to bring a somewhat organized selection of judo players from around the world on to the same tatami.


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by FightingSpirit on Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:12 pm

    The path to Olympic qualification could be made more equitable and affordable for all with a little out of the box consideration for compromise and combining approaches.  
    Consider: the path could begin by retaining the integrity of the National/Federation Trials as a preliminary means for meeting Federation and subsequent Judo Union qualification requirements.  The proposed approach should take into consideration that the five Judo unions are comprised of a varying range of member Federations.  Thus the Qualification could be based upon a proportionate number of Qualifying Federation TEAMS, and INDIVIDUALS based upon the number of Member Federations in each Judo Union.  In addition to top TEAM and INDIVIDUAL qualifying quotas there should also be a select number of qualification quotas set aside for top World Championship Finishers and Rankings as well.  
    The proposed goal is for 64 qualifiers per division with justification and proposed format change to demonstrate feasible completion in LESS days than 2012 London Olympics...
    African AJU 50 member Federations
    European EJU 50 member Federations
    Asian JUA 39 member Federations
    Oceanic OJU 20 member Federations
    Pan-American PJC 41 member Federations

    Judo Union Olympic Trials (or Rankings)
    AJU Judo Union Top 5 Federation Teams
    EJU Judo Union Top 5 Federation Teams
    JUA Judo Union Top 4 Federation Teams
    OJU Judo Union Top 3 Federation Teams
    PJC Judo Union Top 4 Federation Teams
    Includes Complete Top 21 Federation Teams

    Judo Union Olympic Trials (or Rankings)
    AJU Judo Union (next) Top 10 Individuals
    EJU Judo Union (next) Top 10 Individuals
    JUA Judo Union (next) Top 8 Individuals
    OJU Judo Union (next) Top 6 Individuals
    PJC Judo Union (next) Top 8 Individuals
    Includes (next) Top 32 Individuals (Relative to Federation Trials)

    Top 3 World Championship Placers (previous Two years)
    Next (By Exception – if not all ready qualified) Top 7 World Rankings
    Host Country +1 per Weight

    Total 64 Olympic Judoka per male and female weight classes

    Negotiation Tactic with OC to justify larger number of Athletes:  
    1) Make the case for the relative number of athletes in other Olympic sports with comparable number of competition days…
    2) If necessary compromise on reduced number of Olympic qualifiers based upon distribution of competitors by weight division.  Ie smallest volume of participants by weight in light and heavy weight divisions would warrant less Olympic qualifiers (32 to 64) based upon number of competitors world wide.
    3) Convince OC that efficiencies can be found to reduce number of days of competition with a change in format.  
    4) Proposed format paradigm shift can reduce from 6-7 days to ONLY FOUR days with two days of preliminary competition rounds and two days of Medal Round competition.  

    Day ONE All Seven Women’s Divisions (48k, 52k, 57k, 63k, 70k, 78K, +78k) complete TWO preliminary Rounds
    - Double the number of mats (from 4 to 8 )
    - Conduct 1st round of 64 (32 matches), and 2nd round of 32 (16 matches)  for all Div’s
    - Early start, late finish – save time by eliminating Medal Rounds
    - Typical 2012 Olympic day for 32 man bracket and four divisions is approx 172 matches (with byes, repechage, and medal rounds)
    - Proposed Day One on twice as many mats equates to almost double the number of matches (32 rd1+16 rd2)X 7 div = 336 matches

    Day TWO All Seven Women’s Divisions (48k, 52k, 57k, 63k, 70k, 78K, +78k) complete round three Quarter Finals, Repechage and Medal Rounds
    - Reduce venue back to normal (four) number of mats
    - Medal Rounds and Awards

    Day THREE All Seven Men’s Divisions (60k, 66k, 73k, 81k, 90k, 100K, +100k) complete TWO preliminary Rounds
    - Double the number of mats (from 4 to 8 )
    - Conduct 1st round of 64 (32 matches), and 2nd round of 32 (16 matches) for all Div’s
    - Early start, late finish – save time by eliminating Medal Rounds
    - Proposed Day One on twice as many mats equates to almost double the number of matches (32 rd1+16 rd2)X 7 div = 336 matches

    Day TWO All Seven Men’s Divisions (60k, 66k, 73k, 81k, 90k, 100K, +100k) complete round three Quarter Finals, Repechage and Medal Rounds
    - Reduce venue back to normal (four) number of mats
    - Medal Rounds and Awards
    Providing Olympic Judoka to compete in two consecutive days has some benefit for optimal performance during medal rounds (allows them to ice and treat potential wounds/injuries), and as much as I hate to concede this point the second day would also allow for that contentious unofficial 2nd weighin to  ensure they are still within 5% of their initial weight…


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    finarashi

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by finarashi on Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:59 am

    FightingSpirit wrote:The path to Olympic qualification could be made more equitable and affordable for all with a little out of the box consideration for compromise and combining approaches.  …
    .. and your approach has the unfortunate problem of increasing the numebr of athletes. The stated big problem in modern Olympics is that they are already too big. Too many sports, too many events, too many athletes.
    When you state that the number of athletes shouldl be increased you echo all and every sport, every NOC etc. Everybody wants the number of athletes increaseD as number of athletes is more prestige in sports.
    Unfortunately the OC wants smaller games with less sports events and athletes.
    Number of event days has nothing to do with costs as one could easily have Judo done in less days loook at any big event and how many fights you can have at one mat.


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by FightingSpirit on Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:28 pm

    finarashi wrote:.. and your approach has the unfortunate problem of increasing the numebr of athletes. The stated big problem in modern Olympics is that they are already too big. Too many sports, too many events, too many athletes.
    When you state that the number of athletes shouldl be increased you echo all and every sport, every NOC etc. Everybody wants the number of athletes increaseD as number of athletes is more prestige in sports.
    Unfortunately the OC wants smaller games with less sports events and athletes.
    Number of event days has nothing to do with costs as one could easily have Judo done in less days loook at any big event and how many fights you can have at one mat.  
    Agree that every NOC wants more athletes/events and air time.  
    Unfortunately, I’m having a hard time grasping the notion that every “OC wants smaller games with less sports events and athletes.”  And struggling to understand the idea that the “Number of event days has nothing to do with...” justification of proposal.  Granted it's quite a paradym shift, and likely problematic for other reasons, but from what I've been able to find via Google today:

    In October and November 2004, the IOC established an Olympic Programme Commission, which was tasked with reviewing the sports on the Olympic program and all non-Olympic recognized sports. The goal was to apply a systematic approach to establishing the Olympic program for each celebration of the Games.  The commission formulated seven criteria to judge whether a sport should be included on the Olympic program. These criteria are history and tradition of the sport, universality, popularity of the sport, image, athletes' health, development of the International Federation that governs the sport, and costs of holding the sport.
    The 114th IOC Session, in 2002, limited the Summer Games program to a maximum of 28 sports, 301 events, and 10,500 athletes.  
    The IOC has put a limit of 28 sports in the Summer Olympics, therefore no further sports may be added unless existing sports are removed.
    In order for a sport or discipline to be considered for inclusion in the list of Summer Olympics sports, it must be widely practiced in at least 75 countries, spread over four continents.
    Sports come in and out of vogue around the world over time, and in order to continue to be relevant to the world of sport, the Olympic Games needs to adapt with these changes.

    Of course there is a limit to what can be included, and there are specific rules in place for including new sports.
    Under the rules of the Olympic Charter, the IOC Executive Board are able to add new disciplines to existing sports without needing the approval of the full membership. Although many sports were looking at adding extra events to their program, in mid 2013 the Executive Board decided not to include any more events on the program for 2016. Sports which had applied to add new disciplines for Rio 2016 included basketball (3x3 event), cycling (a points race, BMX freestyle and mountain bike eliminator events), triathlon (mixed relay); and judo (team event).
    The new system consists of 25 core sports with three “floating” sports. This new system will start from the Olympics from 2020. However, it is not all good news, as all sports would be up for review after each Olympics. New sports will be included or others dropped by a simple majority vote (compared to currently requiring a 2/3’s majority).

    There needs to be exceptional circumstances for a core sport to be dropped from the program, such as a drug scandal, corruption or a massive drop in popularity. There were 28 different sports on the program for the Beijing Games, which reduced to 26 for London when Baseball and Softball were dropped from the program. In 2013, wrestling was dropped from the sports list (but reinstated later).

    Cost Controversy: One criticism is that the Games are funded by host cities and national governments; the IOC incurs none of the cost, yet controls all the rights and profits from the Olympic symbols. The IOC also takes a percentage of all sponsorship and broadcast income.  Host cities continue to compete ardently for the right to host the Games, even though there is no certainty that they will earn back their investments. Research has shown that trade is around 30 percent higher for countries that have hosted the Olympics.

    Summer Olympic CONSTRAINTS are expected to include approximately 10,500 athletes to take part in 301 events on their programs over 14-15 days across 32-34 competition venues.  Equates to ~34.8 athletes (+/-) per medal event.  Equates to 9-10 events per competition venue,  or 22 events awarded per day.
    Athletics (track & Field): 2,000 athletes, 47 medal events.  Equates to ~42.5 athletes per event over 10 Days of Competition.  
    Swimming: 950 Athletes, 32 Events.  Equates to 29.7 athletes per event over 8 Days of Competition.  
    Basketball 2 Medal events, Athletes: 288 (144 men, 144 women, 12 teams in each event).  Equates to 144 athletes per event over 12 Days of Competition.
    Soccer: 2 Medal events, Athletes: 504 (288 men, 216 women; 16 men’s teams and 12 women’s teams) over 14 Days of Competition.

    POINT being if JUDO can demonstrate the willingness and ability to have more athletes compete in the same or less number of days (than before, or other sports) so be it... More bang for the buck.  There are no additional costs to the IOC, host nation, the IJF or anybody other than the NOC’s who are willing to bring more athletes.


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by BillC on Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:20 pm

    FightingSpirit wrote:
    POINT being if JUDO can demonstrate the willingness and ability to have more athletes compete in the same or less number of days (than before, or other sports) so be it...

    FS ... sorry to be a wet blanket on this point. But why do you personally give a rat's hind end whether judo is in the Olympics or not?


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by finarashi on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:18 pm

    "The 114th IOC Session, in 2002, limited the Summer Games program to a maximum of 28 sports, 301 events, and 10,500 athletes. " Note the 10,500 athletes. No host country can support unlimited number of participants (and almost as much officials). So each sport has now a fixed number of participants. If you have more participants then you have bigger share of media i.e. more prestige. So every sport wants to increase the number of participants. Your proposal is just that.
    Second thing that is much, much more important is what kind of sport we want the Olympics to be. If we increase the number of fights per day (for the gold medalist) to e.g. 12 then we clearly see that the athlete who wins must have good endurance. Training for gold is then different. Do we want the winning Judoka be a long distance type athlete? To me the optimum would be only four (i.e. 16 per weight class) to make the type of Judo emerge that I like.


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by FightingSpirit on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:05 pm

    BillC wrote:
    FightingSpirit wrote:
    POINT being if JUDO can demonstrate the willingness and ability to have more athletes compete in the same or less number of days (than before, or other sports) so be it...

    FS ... sorry to be a wet blanket on this point.  But why do you personally give a rat's hind end whether judo is in the Olympics or not?

    Happen to personnally know several prospects who are Olympic Dreamers... Not being one to want to crush their Dreams based upon individual cost... all about equal opportunity, across olympic sports, and individual choice to excell with their God given talent, hard work and determination.


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by FightingSpirit on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:34 pm

    finarashi wrote:"The 114th IOC Session, in 2002, limited the Summer Games program to a maximum of 28 sports, 301 events, and 10,500 athletes. " Note the 10,500 athletes. No host country can support unlimited number of participants (and almost as much officials). So each sport has now a fixed number of participants. If you have more participants then you have bigger share of media i.e. more prestige. So every sport wants to increase the number of participants. Your proposal is just that.
    Second thing that is much, much more important is what kind of sport we want the Olympics to be. If we increase the number of fights per day (for the gold medalist) to e.g. 12 then we clearly see that the athlete who wins must have good endurance. Training for gold is then different. Do we want the winning Judoka be a long distance type athlete? To me the optimum would be only four (i.e. 16 per weight class) to make the type of Judo emerge that I like.

    Agree, the imposed cealing (28 sports, 301 events and 10,500 athletes) does appear to be the constraint.  And yes, after doing some of these comparative numbers for other sports I can see a numeric trend toward 30-34 athletes per event - Evidently being partial to Judo has clearly made me BIASED - guess I must concede that point...  

    Hoping that I can attach this historic trend in number of athletes, which does seem to illustrate a leveling toward that 10,500.  It would also seem to indicate a trend toward equal men and women participation - illustrated by a downward trend for men to heighten opportunity for women.  Judo is well balanced with 7 events (weight classes) for men and women.  



    http://i56.servimg.com/u/f56/18/78/61/61/athlet12.png

    WRT Endurance: that is a perfectly decent debate with the counter being that several other sports compete over several days without having to defend their athletes endurance...  In fact, the same can be said about endurance for being able to compete over two days.  Highest level Wrestling Championships are settled over a period of days with upto five matches per day and potentially 8-10 matches over two days...  The more important point being that the Judo proposal suggests all individual medalist fighting MORE bouts over a two day period than are currently fought in one day.  Dought anyone would question any of the champions/medalists endurance to their faces after such an accomplishment...  ie winning over 64 vs 30 other judoka.


    Last edited by FightingSpirit on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    BillC

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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by BillC on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:35 pm

    FightingSpirit wrote:Happen to personnally know several prospects who are Olympic Dreamers...   Not being one to want to crush their Dreams based upon individual cost... all about equal opportunity, across olympic sports, and individual choice to excell with their God given talent, hard work and determination.

    Yes, that's a tough thing, don't want to discourage such students. That said, the reality is that they need something on the order of $60k per year to be competitive ... last time I checked. The student comes up with the money, someone else profits. That's the Olympics as you note.


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by Davaro on Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:20 am

    finarashi wrote:
    Davaro wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    finarashi wrote:Plus now you have to earn your place in the Olympics personally doing international competitions. Not just beating your team mate at the trials.

    Which is why ... and not just in judo ... the entire Olympic movement has lost its charm for me.  More than that, the entire endeavor is morally questionable for multiple reasons.

    Cant agree more. Events such as the Olympics should be about representing your country only. If you are the best in your country at any given sport, you should qualify. Even if it only the best person in said division etc. Or best team, or whatever.

    Why be forced to get "points" in Europe, or at the "grand slam/prix" type events? The Olympic spirit is far from what it once was. You SHOULD thus qualify by simply beating your countrymen and being the best in your country.

    So what if young Sipho from a small village in South Botswana, while being the best in his country in swimming (he may even be the only swimmer there) is lapped in a 50m event? Point being, he should be allowed to represent his country on the world stage.

    Leave the qualification standards for World Championships where the aim is to find the best in the World competing against each other at the outset.

    At the Olympics, that will happen anyway where Le Clos will swim in the finals against Phelps (to continue in the swimming lane, so to speak)

    In early Olympics you could represent your country if you showed up in the morning of the competition. But now when the OC pays your tickets, gives you your outfit, houses you, feeds you and also your coach and your team leader then maybe it is right that not everybody who wants can qualify.

    Note that even now it is easier for someone to qualify to Judo from say e.g. Singapore than from US

    I am not trying to say that everyone who wants to, can qualify.

    In my ideal Olympics, the games has a set number of sports. Be they what they may.

    Each country is entitled to enter a certain number of competitors per sport. fe: say in Judo, each country is allowed to enter 1 player per division.
    It is then up to the country to select which players go, and that should be the best player in that division from that country.

    If we limit it to the very best players, irrespective of what country they are from, we may end up having say, 7 Georgians in the mens -60Kg and the rest made up from Japan, Russia and Mongolia (as an example) Would that make for a spectacle? Having one particular country having the top 6 players in any given sport?

    Or would 168 players from 168 member countries fighting it out for gold?

    I know my example does not make logistical sense but that is what I was trying to get across.

    Maybe limit each country to say 40 "athletes" and that country needs to figure out which athletes to send. Across all sporting codes. Say a maximum of 15 athletes per sporting code.

    Again, probably not practical or fair. Having the USA send 40 and Reunion Island sending 40 would not be the same thing.

    Perhaps the best thing is to limit the amount of sports. Now we can create a new thread to debate what is a real sport that should be included and what is not    affraid


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by FightingSpirit on Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:53 am

    Davaro wrote: ...168 players from 168 member countries fighting it out for gold?

    I know my example does not make logistical sense but that is what I was trying to get across.

    Maybe limit each country to say 40 "athletes" and that country needs to figure out which athletes to send. Across all sporting codes. Say a maximum of 15 athletes per sporting code.

    Again, probably not practical or fair. Having the USA send 40 and Reunion Island sending 40 would not be the same thing.

    Perhaps the best thing is to limit the amount of sports. Now we can create a new thread to debate what is a real sport that should be included and what is not    affraid

    Davaro, I tend to agree with much of your sentiment...  recognizing that the proposed paradigm shift proposal I posted (a couple pages back) was a bit too verbose for forum reader ease/appetite...  Buried within that proposal was the idea of addressing both cost effectiveness as well as fairness.  From a fairness standpoint even if 64 person sized brackets are deemed too big - the notion of fairness should/could be resolved with proportionate qualification quotas based upon the size of each Judo Union and based upon their respective Judo Union Olympic Trials and/or rankings...

    Judo Union Olympic Trials (or Rankings)
    AJU Judo Union (next) Top 10 Individuals
    EJU Judo Union (next) Top 10 Individuals
    JUA Judo Union (next) Top 8 Individuals
    OJU Judo Union (next) Top 6 Individuals
    PJC Judo Union (next) Top 8 Individuals
    Includes Top 32 Individuals where Federation Trials could/should still serve as a pre-requisite to qualify for each of the 5 Judo Union Olympic Trials...


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by finarashi on Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:16 pm

    FightingSpirit wrote:
    Davaro wrote: ...168 players from 168 member countries fighting it out for gold?

    I know my example does not make logistical sense but that is what I was trying to get across.

    Maybe limit each country to say 40 "athletes" and that country needs to figure out which athletes to send. Across all sporting codes. Say a maximum of 15 athletes per sporting code.

    Again, probably not practical or fair. Having the USA send 40 and Reunion Island sending 40 would not be the same thing.

    Perhaps the best thing is to limit the amount of sports. Now we can create a new thread to debate what is a real sport that should be included and what is not    affraid

    Davaro, I tend to agree with much of your sentiment...  recognizing that the proposed paradigm shift proposal I posted (a couple pages back) was a bit too verbose for forum reader ease/appetite...  Buried within that proposal was the idea of addressing both cost effectiveness as well as fairness.  From a fairness standpoint even if 64 person sized brackets are deemed too big - the notion of fairness should/could be resolved with proportionate qualification quotas based upon the size of each Judo Union and based upon their respective Judo Union Olympic Trials and/or rankings...

    Judo Union Olympic Trials (or Rankings)
    AJU Judo Union (next) Top 10 Individuals
    EJU Judo Union (next) Top 10 Individuals
    JUA Judo Union (next) Top 8 Individuals
    OJU Judo Union (next) Top 6 Individuals
    PJC Judo Union (next) Top 8 Individuals
    Includes Top 32 Individuals where Federation Trials could/should still serve as a pre-requisite to qualify for each of the 5 Judo Union Olympic Trials...
    FightingSpirit, have you looked at how current system works?


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    Re: New qualification requirements for US judo players.

    Post by FightingSpirit on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:42 pm

    finarashi,
    yes thanks.  But by alll means if I am missing something I would more than welcome being corrected on this point...  See link below for IJF description of the world ranking list and remaining qualifying quotas.

    Yes - 22 qualifying quotas (per 14 div) come from the top 22 on the World Ranking list.  The remaining 7-8 quotas per div come from 100 remaining total quotas divided by 14 divisions (~7); which amounts to ~1 Continental quota per continent plus 1 host country quota for a total of 30 athletes per division.

    The World Ranking List will consist of points from
    Continental Open, Grand Prix, Grand Slam, Masters, Continental Championships, World Championships and Olympic Games:
    The five best results during each 12 month period will count + one extra (6th) result

    *** Olympic Qualification Period Begins - May 30, 2014 ***
    For the year 2014 (only - similar legs for 2015);
    Leg 1 will include all International events from January 1 to March 31.
    Leg 2 will include all International events from April 1 to June 30.
    Leg 3 will include all International events from July 1 to September 30.
    Leg 4 will include all International events from October 1 to December 31.

    - For the 2012 Olympics the Average Top 30 qualifying athletes competed in 6-8 events in the year prior to the Olympics
    - Qualifying Points are good for two years, however they are only 50% value  for 2nd year
    - Strategy to make WRL top 22 by attending ~six events per year (for two years) within affordable regional  range in the 2014-2015 qualifying period
    - -Estimate ~$3,000 per event equates to about ~$18,000 per year, or `$36,000 per athlete to qualify...

    IJF WRL Olympic Qualification Described


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