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    Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

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    The_Harvest

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    Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by The_Harvest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:04 am

    One of the greatest rivalries in Judo.


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    rjohnston411

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by rjohnston411 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:09 am

    Tough call on that! I don't think Saito actually countered per se, more of having good balance enough to land on top. Kind of like Douillet vs. Shinohara in 2000.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:17 am

    Ippon for Saito.


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    The_Harvest

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by The_Harvest on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:23 am

    rjohnston411 wrote:Tough call on that! I don't think Saito actually countered per se, more of having good balance enough to land on top. Kind of like Douillet vs. Shinohara in 2000.

    There was no doubt in my mind that Shinohara had thrown Douillet with an Uchi Mata Sukashi. It was one of Shinohara's favorite Waza and he had used it before. In this fight however Saito doesn't seem to engage in any Waza. Although I have to admit that Yamashita's fall looked very spectacular the fist time I saw it.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:32 am

    Yamashita basically lost his last All Japan Championships, no doubt about it; he knew it, the audience knew it. It was a simple matter of him still being given the victory "out of respect for services to the country" and let him retire with a supposedly 203 uninterrupted win. But he knew, and immediately after this contest, he retired. Those were the unspoken term of the contract ...

    The point is, no one wanted to see Yamashita lose. Yamashita struggled throughout the contest, was gassed, etc. It was the end of a great champion like we saw many great champions before being overtaken by age in their last context: Parisi, Van De Walle. You can't defeat time, period. Everyone knew that if he hadn't stopped then, it would only have been a matter of time before Yamashita too would have lost even more dramatically and visibly.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:36 am

    The_Harvest wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:Tough call on that! I don't think Saito actually countered per se, more of having good balance enough to land on top. Kind of like Douillet vs. Shinohara in 2000.

    There was no doubt in my mind that Shinohara had thrown Douillet with an Uchi Mata Sukashi. It was one of Shinohara's favorite Waza and he had used it before. In this fight however Saito doesn't seem to engage in any Waza. Although I have to admit that Yamashita's fall looked very spectacular the fist time I saw it.

    You don't have to do a named judo waza to throw someone for ippon in shiai. Saito definitly peformed positive action to counter the attempted Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi. He didn't just land on top.

    Maybe a form of Uki Otoshi. No such thing as "Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi Gaeshi or Sukashi".
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:36 am

    The_Harvest wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:Tough call on that! I don't think Saito actually countered per se, more of having good balance enough to land on top. Kind of like Douillet vs. Shinohara in 2000.

    There was no doubt in my mind that Shinohara had thrown Douillet with an Uchi Mata Sukashi. It was one of Shinohara's favorite Waza and he had used it before. In this fight however Saito doesn't seem to engage in any Waza. Although I have to admit that Yamashita's fall looked very spectacular the fist time I saw it.

    There exist recordings from another angle which show the action even more clearly, and leave no doubt that Saito was robbed of the victory. More importantly though --I think at least-- was Saito's moral victory. How many contests have you not seen where Westerners go out of the roof after some vague dispute about a Kôka or Shidô, and just see the dignity with which Saito takes this disadvantage. Just for that he deserves respect. Saito was a great champion, but he unfortunately remained in the shadow of Yamashita.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:54 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    The_Harvest wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:Tough call on that! I don't think Saito actually countered per se, more of having good balance enough to land on top. Kind of like Douillet vs. Shinohara in 2000.

    There was no doubt in my mind that Shinohara had thrown Douillet with an Uchi Mata Sukashi. It was one of Shinohara's favorite Waza and he had used it before. In this fight however Saito doesn't seem to engage in any Waza. Although I have to admit that Yamashita's fall looked very spectacular the fist time I saw it.

    There exist recordings from another angle which show the action even more clearly, and leave no doubt that Saito was robbed of the victory. More importantly though --I think at least-- was Saito's moral victory. How many contests have you not seen where Westerners go out of the roof after some vague dispute about a Kôka or Shidô, and just see the dignity with which Saito takes this disadvantage. Just for that he deserves respect. Saito was a great champion, but he unfortunately remained in the shadow of Yamashita.

    They show another angle in the video posted. I called ippon on the first view, second view confirmed it.

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    Jonesy

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:09 am

    Saito won that match. As CK said - he knew it, Yamashita knew it, everyone knew it. Saito took an unjust defeat without a peep of complaint, with class. Rei! This is Japan and in the longer term that defeat probably served Saito better than an impertinent victory that would have cast a blemish on Yamashita's perfect record. Saito went on to be a World Champion, double Olympic Champion and Coach of the Japanese national team. Had he won he could well have incurred some disfavour from the All Japan Judo Federation and the Kodokan that could have made things harder for him in the longer term - slowing down promotions, no coaching roles etc.

    When Saito bowed graciously he received the gratitude of the AJJF who could herald Yamashita's undefeated greatness, he inherited an obligation - Yamashita the world's greatest living judoka owed him a favour and he had the unspoken sympathy of everyone who knew that he had been robbed.

    The first international training camp I did, Saito led the Japanese contingent. He taught some newaza. He was a great, great judoka in his own right and always one of my favourites. Had there been no Yamashita, Saito's record would have been comparable.


    Last edited by Jonesy on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    edbiology

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by edbiology on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:04 pm

    Could someone briefly summarize the commentary and interviews in the video? What do the two players think? Great thanks!
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    micahpharris

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by micahpharris on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:09 pm

    I have a question. I'm brand new to judo so this isn't a challenge to the opinions stated above but rather more of a request for clarification on a given point. Watching this, it seems to me that Yamashita attempted and failed to complete a tani otoshi or yoko gake (again, I apologize if I'm mis-identifying the throw but the point I'm inquiring about relies on the nature of the throw as a sacrifice and not the specific throw). Those throws being sacrifice throws, the uki likely will end up on his back upon failing in any case. Since ippon requires a throw onto ones back with force and control, does a failed sacrifice throw by uki automatically equal ippon for the tori-become-uki? In other words is it a feasible interpretation of the match above to say that, though Yamashita did land on his back with force, Yamashita's landing on his back was not under the control of Saito and, therefore, not ippon?

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Old Chestnut on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:39 am

    micahpharris wrote:Yamashita's landing on his back was not under the control of Saito

    ???
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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by cuivien on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:50 am

    micahpharris wrote:I have a question. I'm brand new to judo so this isn't a challenge to the opinions stated above but rather more of a request for clarification on a given point. Watching this, it seems to me that Yamashita attempted and failed to complete a tani otoshi or yoko gake (again, I apologize if I'm mis-identifying the throw but the point I'm inquiring about relies on the nature of the throw as a sacrifice and not the specific throw). Those throws being sacrifice throws, the uki likely will end up on his back upon failing in any case. Since ippon requires a throw onto ones back with force and control, does a failed sacrifice throw by uki automatically equal ippon for the tori-become-uki? In other words is it a feasible interpretation of the match above to say that, though Yamashita did land on his back with force, Yamashita's landing on his back was not under the control of Saito and, therefore, not ippon?

    Yamashita faked ô-soto-gari on the left and attacked with sasae-tsurikomi-ashi with the opposite leg. It was not a sutemi-waza attempt.

    As for the last part, I will guess that it depends heavily on the position and skillset of the judges. I have seen several failed sutemi-waza be turned into waza-ari or ippon, but there's no rule saying it will automatically become so...


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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by finarashi on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:50 am

    Old Chestnut wrote:
    micahpharris wrote:Yamashita's landing on his back was not under the control of Saito

    ???
    This is one of the reasons refrees did not award the score. The score is not given to the Judoka who initiated the throw or who first did kusushi, but to Judoka who controls his opponent while the said opponent lands on his back.

    One could argue that there was no control as in the final momentd the grip gets broken.


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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by finarashi on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:53 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    The_Harvest wrote:
    rjohnston411 wrote:Tough call on that! I don't think Saito actually countered per se, more of having good balance enough to land on top. Kind of like Douillet vs. Shinohara in 2000.

    There was no doubt in my mind that Shinohara had thrown Douillet with an Uchi Mata Sukashi. It was one of Shinohara's favorite Waza and he had used it before. In this fight however Saito doesn't seem to engage in any Waza. Although I have to admit that Yamashita's fall looked very spectacular the fist time I saw it.

    There exist recordings from another angle which show the action even more clearly, and leave no doubt that Saito was robbed of the victory. More importantly though --I think at least-- was Saito's moral victory. How many contests have you not seen where Westerners go out of the roof after some vague dispute about a Kôka or Shidô, and just see the dignity with which Saito takes this disadvantage. Just for that he deserves respect. Saito was a great champion, but he unfortunately remained in the shadow of Yamashita.
    In completely unrelated track, CK if that is your picture then I am friends with a guy who went out with your daughter Smile


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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by micahpharris on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:01 am

    Old Chestnut wrote:
    micahpharris wrote:Yamashita's landing on his back was not under the control of Saito

    ???

    Sorry for being unclear. What I meant to say is that it did not appear to me that Saito had control over Yamashita as Yamashita fell, i.e., it looked to me like Yamashita fell in a failed throw attempt and was not thrown by Saito. Rather, it appeared to me that Yamashita failed in his technique and Saito fell on top of Yamashita. I was wondering whether my untrained eye was missing something or whether my untrained mind failed to properly understand the rules of competition. As I said, I'm still new and am trying to get a feel for workings and, since some of the first comments seemed to suggest that this was clearly an ippon for Saito, I was curious about the analysis. Thanks for the replies and analysis so far.
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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by finarashi on Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:07 am

    micahpharris wrote:
    Old Chestnut wrote:
    micahpharris wrote:Yamashita's landing on his back was not under the control of Saito

    ???

    Sorry for being unclear. What I meant to say is that it did not appear to me that Saito had control over Yamashita as Yamashita fell, i.e., it looked to me like Yamashita fell in a failed throw attempt and was not thrown by Saito. Rather, it appeared to me that Yamashita failed in his technique and Saito fell on top of Yamashita. I was wondering whether my untrained eye was missing something or whether my untrained mind failed to properly understand the rules of competition. As I said, I'm still new and am trying to get a feel for workings and, since some of the first comments seemed to suggest that this was clearly an ippon for Saito, I was curious about the analysis. Thanks for the replies and analysis so far.
    If you look carefuly after intial attack is over Saito is actually trying to throw Yamashita. See the position of his hands. See also how after the intital position his body is (somewhere in themiddle) actually is a very good throwing position. But just before Yamashita lands Saito's grip is loosened.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:06 am

    finarashi wrote:
    In completely unrelated track, CK if that is your picture then I am friends with a guy who went out with your daughter Smile

    Finarishi,

    Just to let you know that you guys are behind with child support. Please, promptly wire the full amount to my bank account first thing in the morning.


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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:10 am

    micahpharris wrote:
    Old Chestnut wrote:
    micahpharris wrote:Yamashita's landing on his back was not under the control of Saito

    ???

    Sorry for being unclear. What I meant to say is that it did not appear to me that Saito had control over Yamashita as Yamashita fell, i.e., it looked to me like Yamashita fell in a failed throw attempt and was not thrown by Saito. Rather, it appeared to me that Yamashita failed in his technique and Saito fell on top of Yamashita. I was wondering whether my untrained eye was missing something or whether my untrained mind failed to properly understand the rules of competition. As I said, I'm still new and am trying to get a feel for workings and, since some of the first comments seemed to suggest that this was clearly an ippon for Saito, I was curious about the analysis. Thanks for the replies and analysis so far.

    There is control. Not saying there is "full control", but there is control. Such actions typically qualify as sumi-otoshi. Now, I have not mentioned the term 'ippon'; others have. We are not IJF style 2013 were people go sit on their knees turn and accidentally touch the tatami with their back and get ippon against. The absence of full control justifies reducing the score, which was the view in the 1970s and 1980s just like you could only maximally get waza-ari for tomoe-nage if there was any 'floating' by the opponent even if afterwards he felt flat on his back. So I recommend you drop the term 'ippon' and instead talk about "a winning score".


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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Kuden on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:23 am

    The absence of full control justifies reducing the score, which was the view in the 1970s and 1980s just like you could only maximally get waza-ari for tomoe-nage if there was any 'floating' by the opponent even if afterwards he felt flat on his back. So I recommend you drop the term 'ippon' and instead talk about "a winning score".[/quote]

    I thought Yamashita lost, looking at them from behind. In the video, Saito admits he had to create MA-AI (distance) not to give Yamashita advantage with his left Tsurite. This is to Saito already a lost game, being so deffensive. On the other end, Yamashita comments "I thought I would never be able to throw Saito that day."

    Kawano-sensei (sensei to Saito) "The referee must have thought Yamashita had slipped down by himself." Sato-sensei(sensei to Yamashita) admits "Yamashita must have clearly lost unless he made successive attacks after that".

    Saito said he had anticipated Yamashita`s left Osotogari, but Yamashita actually tried Left Sasae-Tsurikomi-Ashi by first stepping in from his right foot. As I see the video today, I realize Yamashita could not step much further in from his right foot to make his attempt a success. On that day, I could not recognize that.

    As CK said, please do not use today`s scale to measure the quality of the match. Also indeed even in those days an Ippon with sacrifice throw used to be discounted by one, Ippon to Wazaari, Wazaari to none, unless such throw was considered to be a genuine sacrifice throw. (For further clarification on "genuine", please try and study Koshiki-no-Kata)

    By the way, I recall one other match where I still believe Yamashita lost against Endo when he broke the leg due to Endo`s Kawazu-gake.

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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:13 am

    Kuden wrote:By the way, I recall one other match where I still believe Yamashita lost against Endo when he broke the leg due to Endo`s Kawazu-gake.
    I think it was a kani basami.
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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by The_Harvest on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:03 am

    You must be talking about this match.



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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Davaro on Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:21 am

    Wow, so Jonesy closes a thread, where nothing was happening, and says one must continue in another thread where nothing is happening. Way to go... close this one too

    Is that gonna happen every time there is a thread on the same topic? Shocked


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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by Guest on Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:41 am

    The_Harvest wrote:One of the greatest rivalries in Judo.



    Ippon for the guy not named Yamashita.
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    Re: Documentary about the Yamashita/Saito rivalry

    Post by BillC on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:13 am

    Davaro wrote:Wow, so Jonesy closes a thread, where nothing was happening, and says one must continue in another thread where nothing is happening. Way to go... close this one too

    Is that gonna happen every time there is a thread on the same topic? Shocked

    Only when he has too much time on his hands ... which judging by the number of strange kata posts ... Laughing


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