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    Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

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    Cichorei Kano

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    Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:22 pm

    There is (amongst others) a pretty remarkable statement included in John Stevens' "the way of Judo - A portrait of Jigoro Kano & his students"

    At one point, talking about one of the students of Kanô, it reads:

    "Honda (Masujirô) was an excellent student and accomplished judo man, reaching third dan. However, Kano was in Europe in 1889, Honda became a fervent Christian. As mentioned, Kano did not like religion of any kind, so he expelled Honda from the academy, lest he contaminate the others." (...)

    No source is given, nor are there any footnotes elaborating about what exactly to think of this. Did Kanô really expel Honda M. and exactly why ? Was he wearing a crucifix, or was he practicing exorcism in the changing rooms of the joshi-bu ? What exactly transpired ? Is this story really consistent with other information known about Honda Masujirô ?


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    seatea

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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by seatea on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:27 pm

    Everything I've read about Kano and religion is that he believed it to be a positive thing in general.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:04 pm

    In a separate thread on the book I lamented the lack of precise references in Stevens' popular works, and particularly in this book. I found it very puzzling, particularly from an academic.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:57 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:There is (amongst others) a pretty remarkable statement included in John Stevens' "the way of Judo - A portrait of Jigoro Kano & his students"

    At one point, talking about one of the students of Kanô, it reads:

    "Honda (Masujirô) was an excellent student and accomplished judo man, reaching third dan. However, Kano was in Europe in 1889, Honda became a fervent Christian. As mentioned, Kano did not like religion of any kind, so he expelled Honda from the academy, lest he contaminate the others." (...)

    No source is given, nor are there any footnotes elaborating about what exactly to think of this. Did Kanô really expel Honda M. and exactly why ?  Was he wearing a crucifix, or was he practicing exorcism in the changing rooms of the joshi-bu ?  What exactly transpired ?  Is this story really consistent with other information known about Honda Masujirô ?
    I can't find my copy of this book - can you please put in context?  Which 'academy' is mentioned?

    Offhand, I believe that Honda had a relationship with Kano shihan and the Kodokan that extended for decades beyond 1889, so that by itself is odd. Also, Kano knew and had long term relationships with a number of famous Japanese Christians, including Nitobe Inazo, the promulgator of the modern notion of bushido.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:44 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:There is (amongst others) a pretty remarkable statement included in John Stevens' "the way of Judo - A portrait of Jigoro Kano & his students"

    At one point, talking about one of the students of Kanô, it reads:

    "Honda (Masujirô) was an excellent student and accomplished judo man, reaching third dan. However, Kano was in Europe in 1889, Honda became a fervent Christian. As mentioned, Kano did not like religion of any kind, so he expelled Honda from the academy, lest he contaminate the others." (...)

    No source is given, nor are there any footnotes elaborating about what exactly to think of this. Did Kanô really expel Honda M. and exactly why ?  Was he wearing a crucifix, or was he practicing exorcism in the changing rooms of the joshi-bu ?  What exactly transpired ?  Is this story really consistent with other information known about Honda Masujirô ?
    I can't find my copy of this book - can you please put in context?  Which 'academy' is mentioned?

    Offhand, I believe that Honda had a relationship with Kano shihan and the Kodokan that extended for decades beyond 1889, so that by itself is odd.  Also, Kano knew and had long term relationships with a number of famous Japanese Christians, including Nitobe Inazo, the promulgator of the modern notion of bushido.

    I quoted it literally, and I don't think it specifies "the academy".

    The page on which this quote appears is available online via Google books. You can just google it using the following search string: Kano + John Stevens + Honda

    With regard to the relationship between Kanô and this Honda (mind that there are several historic jûdô sensei called "Honda") I refer to to footnote #28 on page 121 of a scholarly article by Jones and colleagues that appeared in Archives of Budô vol. 7, issue 3 of 2011 and that dealt with Joshi jûdô goshinhô, Honda received 3rd dan from Kanô in Feb. 1887, and in 1906 was fluent in English and a professor at Tôkyô Shihan Gakkô where Kanô was the Head. Like Kanô he was also an educator and women's rights activist, and perhaps even more academically appreciated as unlike Kanô he was awarded a Doctorate Honoris Causa from Trinitiy College in CT in the US in 1911. Later he was a journalist and writer employed by the Imperial Household Agency. Honda was one of the first women's jûdô teachers in the Kôdôkan around the turn of the century long before the creation of the Joshi-bu, when women's jûdô was merely experimental and probably taught individually or privately.


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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:51 pm

    I pulled some books and mags containing eulogies and reminiscences of Kano shihan written within weeks and months of his death.

    One obscure source has a lengthy article by an educator who knew Kano shihan for decades; he wrote that Kano 'hated' or 'strongly disliked' (your choice - it's not clear in Japanese 大嫌) religion.

    I'm still puzzling through it, as the prewar kanji aren't helping at all, and the author is writing several things while trying not to be too direct. But he wrote it twice - Kano shihan disliked (嫌い) and greatly disliked (大嫌い) religion.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by fredlinux on Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:25 am

    “Kano's educational philosophy was a combination of both traditional Japanese neo-Confucianism and contemporary European and American philosophies, to include Instrumentalism, Utilitarianism, and "evolutionary progressivism", as Social Darwinism was then known.

    The theories of the American educator John Dewey and the British philosofer Herbet Spencer especially influenced him, both atheists.

    Although Dewey referred to his philosophy as "instrumentalism" rather than pragmatism, he was one of the three major figures in American pragmatism. Dewey rejected belief in any static ideal, such as a personal god. Dewey felt that only scientific method could reliably increase human good. In 1919, Dewey visited the Kodokan to observe a Judo demonstration and to confer with Jigoro Kano.

    Spencer’s theories on education stress that children should be taught to become individuals who contribute to the good of society. His ideas became very influential in China and Japan largely because he appealed to the reformers' desire to establish a strong nation-state with which to compete with the Western powers.

    Kano's famous quote 'The purpose of judo is to perfect oneself physically, intellectually and morally for benefit of society' is perfect gem of the Spencer's Social Darwinism.”


    From all that I read about Kano and his views, for me he was an atheist.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:26 am

    fredlinux wrote:“Kano's educational philosophy was a combination of both traditional Japanese neo-Confucianism and contemporary European and American philosophies, to include Instrumentalism, Utilitarianism, and "evolutionary progressivism", as Social Darwinism was then known.

    The theories of the American educator John Dewey and the British philosofer Herbet Spencer especially influenced him, both atheists.

    Although Dewey referred to his philosophy as "instrumentalism" rather than pragmatism, he was one of the three major figures in American pragmatism. Dewey rejected belief in any static ideal, such as a personal god. Dewey felt that only scientific method could reliably increase human good.  In 1919, Dewey visited the Kodokan to observe a Judo demonstration and to confer with Jigoro Kano.

    Spencer’s theories on education stress that children should be taught to become individuals who contribute to the good of society. His ideas became very influential in China and Japan largely because he appealed to the reformers' desire to establish a strong nation-state with which to compete with the Western powers.

    Kano's famous quote 'The purpose of judo is to perfect oneself physically, intellectually and morally for benefit of society' is perfect gem of the Spencer's Social Darwinism.”


    From all that I read about Kano and his views, for me he was an atheist.

    I am not sure if it is that simple. Less well known, Kanô was also influenced by a number of French socialists who too were atheists. However, Kanô's grandfather was in fact a Shintô priest and head priest of the Hyoshi Taisha Shintô Shrine in Ôtsu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiyoshi_Shrine

    And, Kanô's grave is a Shintô grave.

    However, that being said, how much importance can we attach to this ? After all, one would not be able to derive much about me from knowing my granfathers, partly because they both died a long, long time ago, were still born in the 19th century and had a thoroughly different background. Even with parents, the children will likely maintain some values but also develop some of their own. In terms of dying, virtually every Japanese either has a Buddhist or a Shintô grave, so deriving from that how religious they were also is hard.

    The same with Kanô, I don't know how much hard evidence there is to conclude anything. I think that one can draw influences from many people without necessarily absorbing or agreeing on other things with them. One could also be religious oneself, yet resist infusion of other things by that religion. For example, someone could be religious himself yet advocate strong separation between church and state and thus in his business dealings refute anything religious attempting to interfere with proper government or business. In this way, one could be religious yet strongly resist religion interfering with jûdô. Unless we have direct and unambiguous statements from Kanô in which he talks about himself, not about other things, it is going to be a tough nut to crack and not be free of speculation.

    Something else to address is that Confucianism, for example, is an ethical and philosophical system, but at the same often considered in conjunction with other religions; however, Confucianism is not a theology as it has no God figure. Add to that, that Japan also has numerous so-called Shinshūkyō (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_new_religions), these are new 'religions', but some of them are mainly political-social constructs with no religious services or deities, while others by their more extremist nature are easily called sects. Being a member or participant of some of these may be quite different from how we perceive religion with regard to strong represented world religious with outspoken liturgies, hierarchies and pervasive in life and death such as there are: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and Buddhism..


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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by fredlinux on Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:33 am

    Theoretically Jigoro Kano own words. In Mind Over Muscle, subtitle Writings From The Founder of Judo, pages 81 to 83:

    "If you truly understand seiryoku zenyo and put it into effect yourself, you can stand on the same footing as those who spend many years in contemplation of the doctrines of Zen and achieve enlightenment. You can achieve no more and no less then this through your own experiences and training. No other special study or anything else is necessary - you can discipline yourself merely through the application of this simple theory.

    Aside from Judo, there may be nothing else by which people's guiding principles can be seen in their daily lives. Buddhism, Confucianism, and Christianity each have their own guiding principle that may be found through study, but this is very difficult. I often have occasion to exchange opinions with authorities on Buddhism, Confucianism, and Christianity. Those who have made such profound study and cultivated their minds say the same thing I do.: the path may differ, but in the and the aims of both religion and learning are ultimately the same, and I consider these authorities my colleagues. However, this is limited to those who have engaged in very profound study. It is difficult to find common ground with those who have made only superficial study. I cannot associate with those simply follow by rote what they have been taught. As citizens of Japan as well, people like that may not understand the true, consistent national spirit. So, through Judo, we are teaching a principle that can work together with the highest principles of Buddhism and Christianity and the exhaustive studies of philosophers, one which, like the other great philosophies and religions, can be put into action.

    The principle of Judo offers a basic principle that can provide a sound answer for every situation and every question. The easiest way to master this basic principle is to practice the waza of Judo and to embark on the do. That is because, through practice that incorporates both martial art and physical education, one can learn a method for making the most effective use of one's mental and physical energy. Then one naturally learns how to apply this method to every aspect of human affairs. I believe that this basic principle is the most appropriate method for resolving various moral issues."

    In my limited view, a truly atheist reasoning. Putting religion in a distant and antiquated perspective.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by seatea on Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:26 am

    fredlinux wrote:“Kano's educational philosophy was a combination of both traditional Japanese neo-Confucianism and contemporary European and American philosophies, to include Instrumentalism, Utilitarianism, and "evolutionary progressivism", as Social Darwinism was then known.

    The theories of the American educator John Dewey and the British philosofer Herbet Spencer especially influenced him, both atheists.

    Although Dewey referred to his philosophy as "instrumentalism" rather than pragmatism, he was one of the three major figures in American pragmatism. Dewey rejected belief in any static ideal, such as a personal god. Dewey felt that only scientific method could reliably increase human good.  In 1919, Dewey visited the Kodokan to observe a Judo demonstration and to confer with Jigoro Kano.

    Spencer’s theories on education stress that children should be taught to become individuals who contribute to the good of society. His ideas became very influential in China and Japan largely because he appealed to the reformers' desire to establish a strong nation-state with which to compete with the Western powers.

    Kano's famous quote 'The purpose of judo is to perfect oneself physically, intellectually and morally for benefit of society' is perfect gem of the Spencer's Social Darwinism.”


    From all that I read about Kano and his views, for me he was an atheist.


    Where is this quote taken from?
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:52 pm

    Dewey visited Japan 1919, and left disappointed in his impact on the place.

    He wrote about visiting the Kodokan, and meeting Kano ('great Judo expert' below), but never mentioned his name in his letters home, later edited into a book.

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/31043/31043-h/31043-h.htm

    "My other experience that I have not written about is seeing Judo. The great Judo expert is president of a normal school, and he arranged a special exhibition by experts for my benefit, he explaining the theory of each part of it in advance. It took place Sunday morning in a big Judo hall, and there were lots of couples doing “free” work, too; they are too quick for my eye in that to see anything but persons suddenly thrown over somebody’s back and flopped down on the ground. It is really an art. The Professor took the old practices and studied them, worked out their mechanical principles, and then devised a graded scientific set of exercises. The system is really not a lot of tricks, but is based on the elementary laws of mechanics, a study of the equilibrium of the human body, the ways in which it is disturbed, how to recover your own and take advantage of the shiftings of the center of gravity of the other person. The first thing that is taught is how to fall down without being hurt, that alone is worth the price of admission and ought to be taught in all our gyms. It isn’t a good substitute for out-of-door games, but I think it is much better than most of our inside formal gymnastics. The mental element is much stronger. In short, I think a study ought to be made here from the standpoint of conscious control. Tell Mr. Alexander to get a book by Harrison—a compatriot of his—out of the library, called “The Fighting Spirit of Japan.” It is a journalist’s book, not meant to be deep, but is interesting and said to be reliable as far as it goes. I noticed at the Judo the small waists of all these people; they breathe always from the abdomen. Their biceps are not specially large, but their forearms are larger than any I have ever seen. I have yet to see a Japanese throw his head back when he rises. In the army they have an indirect method of getting deep breathing which really goes back to the Buddhist Zen teaching of the old Samurai. However, they have adopted a lot of the modern physical exercises from other armies."
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by fredlinux on Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:33 pm

    seatea wrote:Where is this quote taken from?

    I can't find it online anymore No 

    But it seems a mosaic of wikipedia's snippets.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:04 pm

    The quoted pp 81-83 are in Chapter Two of the book, which is a translation of selected writings by Kano Jigoro.  I talked to the editor about this, it has some issues with the translations, and there are no specific end or footnotes.

    The section quoted starts on pg 78, entitled:
    A Basic Principle for Everyone
    Judo and its Application to Everyday Life
    - Seiryoku Zenyo in Everyday Life

    But, the bibliography of the book cites general sources.  Chapter 2 is from:

    "Seiryoku Zenyo: Judo no Konpon Seishin" ("Seiryoku Zenyo: The Fundamental Spirit of Judo") Original title: "Judo no Konpon Seishin" ("The Fundamental Spirit of Judo"). Dai Nippon Judoshi, May 1939.

    "Judo no Konpongi ni Tsuite"  ("The Fundamental Meaning of Judo") Judo Vol 8, No. 11.  November 1937.

    "Jinsei no Koro wa Tada Itsu Aru Nomi" ("There Is Only One Path in Life").  Original title: "Judo to Seishin Shuyo"  ("Judo and Mental Training").  Judo Gokui Kyohan.  Yukawa Meibunkan.  March 1925.  


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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:37 pm

    NBK wrote:Dewey visited Japan 1919, and left disappointed in his impact on the place.  

    He wrote about visiting the Kodokan, and meeting Kano ('great Judo expert' below), but never mentioned his name in his letters home, later edited into a book.

    That's no surprise. Only (some) people in jûdô consider Kanô as a supposed genius, but no serious philosopher or pedagogue does. Much of what Kanô writes is flawed and utopian and without serious critical reflection on the concerns about those of which he builds his views. It is essentially a utopian pacifist view that fails the scrutiny that others can withstand such as for example, Kant, Rawls, Anscombe, Nussbaum. Similarly, no academic institution has considered Kanô's views sufficiently solid to award him a honorary degree even though there are some of his students, who did, because of their own merit, such as for example Honda Masujirô (Honorary Doctorate of Letters, Trinity College, Hartford, CT, 1911).

    It is also no surprise that in the section you quote Kanô is hardly approached as a pedagogue or philosopher but as a sports choreographer, basically not much more than a coach. The contrast with the consideration given in pedagogy to Dewey for example, is astronomic, and for good reason. Kanô in essence was able to achieve a position and sounding board for his jûdô beyond practical sports performance, mostly because of his network and position, something he would never have obtained if it all would have had to be the result of critical peer-review.


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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by seatea on Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:46 am

    Was Kano a pacifist? He has never struck me as such.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:27 am

    seatea wrote:Was Kano a pacifist? He has never struck me as such.

    Whilst around the turn of the century he was still profusely promoting those returning from the Japanese-Russian war, by 1930 he clearly had changed.

    Kanô was influenced and also studied with Ferdinand Buisson, the Nobel Peace Prize 1927 winner. This is one of those many bits of information that has traditionally been suppressed by the Kôdôkan likely because Buisson was also a radical socialist, and to Japanese in those days (as still to many Americans today) socialism is a dangerous poison that by the blink of an eye will turn into communism who will come and take away all our money and possessions ... Don't forget that even one of Kanô's sons was arrested and made front page news because of being a communist, and whom Kanô in the end got out of the hands of the police by having him smuggled to the US, where his trace seems to have vanished ...


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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by fredlinux on Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:14 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    I quoted it literally, and I don't think it specifies "the academy".

    The page on which this quote appears is available online via Google books. You can just google it using the following search string: Kano + John Stevens + Honda

    With regard to the relationship between Kanô and this Honda (mind that there are several historic jûdô sensei called "Honda") I refer to to footnote #28 on page 121 of a scholarly article by Jones and colleagues that appeared in Archives of Budô vol. 7, issue 3 of 2011 and that dealt with Joshi jûdô goshinhô, Honda received 3rd dan from Kanô in Feb. 1887, and in 1906 was fluent in English and a professor at Tôkyô Shihan Gakkô where Kanô was the Head. Like Kanô he was also an educator and women's rights activist, and perhaps even more academically appreciated as unlike Kanô he was awarded a Doctorate Honoris Causa from Trinitiy College in CT in the US in 1911. Later he was a journalist and writer employed by the Imperial Household Agency. Honda was one of the first women's jûdô teachers in the Kôdôkan around the turn of the century long before the creation of the Joshi-bu, when women's jûdô was merely experimental and probably taught individually or privately.


    The "academy" is clearly the Kano Juku in the book, that was a Confucian Academy, so the conflict is clear.

    “A much more positive personality was Masujiro Honda (1866-1925). When Honda entered the Kano Academy and the Kodokan in 1883, Kano told him, "When you study, it is not for getting a good jog or making money; study is for improving yourself and benefiting society. When you train in the dojo, it is not for polishing your techniques; it is for polishing your body and spirit. I don't want a student who spends all his time in the dojo. I want a student who divides his time between the library and the dojo.

    Honda was an excellent student and accomplished judo man, reaching third dan. However, while Kano was in Europe in 1889, Honda became a fervent Christian. As mentioned, Kano did not like religion of any kind, so he expelled Honda from the academy, lest he contaminate the others. However, once Honda was out of the academy, Kano was fine with Honda, in fact recommending him for a position as a teacher at the school in Kumamoto where Kano had been appointed principal. Thereafter, they worked together on a number of projects. Honda writing articles for Kano's journals and Kano writing prefaces for Honda's books.” - page 140


    There are several other passages in the book related to religion:

    "Another favorite professor of Kano's was the eccentric Zen Tanzan Hara (1819-1892), who taught Indian philosophy. Hara had little use for trappings of religion, a view Kano shared wholeheartedly." - page 5

    “... In Europe, Kano was most impressed by the cleanliness and order of the villages, and the beauty and individual character of each house. In the cities, it was the larger number of huge buildings and cathedrals, and their gargantuan scale. At first, Kano believed religion to be the pervasive force in European society. After talking with the Europeans themselves and observing their behavior, however, he concluded that while religion had once held sway, European society was - like Japan - becoming more and more secular” - page 33

    "(It is interesting to note Dewey's reference to Zen; Kano would never have used the concept of Zen to describe his philosophy of Kodokan Judo" - page 54

    “in the 1920s and 1930s, Kano was in a very difficult situation politically. The policies of the Japanese government became more and more extreme. One example: for decades Kano resisted supporting the Imperial Rescript on Education promulgated in 1890. The rescript essentially demanded worship of the emperor as a Shinto deity. Kano totally secular in outlook, and rational in thought. He was a Confucian through and through, with little in any nebulous religious or mystical mumbo jumbo, especially that the emphasis on one religion in the rescript would make followers of other religions (or no religion) ignore it.


    Unfortunately, copies of the rescript had been sent to all schools, together with a portrait of the emperor, with directions to pay homage to the portrait every day before class. Graduates from his college were employed as schoolteachers everywhere, and Kano could not instruct them to refuse to bow to the emperor’s photo. Teachers had to go along, whether they liked it or not; otherwise, they would have been dismissed (or worse). Although Kano clearly didn’t like the rescript - it was contrary to all his ideas on what modern education should be - he finally felt compelled, in 1992, thirty years after the rescript had been promulgated, to support national recognition of the rescript as a moral code, not a religious doctrine. To the last, Kano resisted having to enshrine a shiden (kamidama), a Shinto altar dedicated to Amaterasu (the emperor was supposed to be a direct descendant), at the Kodokan until forced to do so under government pressure in 1937.” - page 56

    “Kano disliked all organized religions. He thought them narrow-minded and limited in scale (not to mention too superstitious). Nonetheless, the single remaining textbook from his early student days is a copy of Becoming a Living Buddha by Tendai monk Nizo. One of the sentences the the young Kano had underline in red was, 'People are always looking for riches here and there without realizing the real treasure is within.'” - page 79

    “Once, at the Tokyo Teacher Training College, a faculty member named Yamamoto arranged for a lecture series, without Principal Kano's permission, on Christianity by the Japanese minister Tokutomi. Yamamoto was called to Kano's office. 'Did you ask my permission to do this?' Kano inquired. Yamamoto replied, 'Request permission now'. Kano: 'Too late, And Tokutomi cannot lecture on Christianity because that subject is too limiting. He needs to learn how to sing a different tune, about Japan's place in the modern world, not about the 'truth' of Christianity.' Philosophy on the curriculum was fine with Kano, but religious propaganda – Shinto, Buddhist, and Christian – was not.” - page 80

    “One of the pillars of Kano's educational philosophy is that education must be completely separate from religion. Instruction in ethics was necessary, but not classes in religious doctrine. The bedrock of ethics for Kano was Confucian philosophy. If there was anyone to be venerated, it was Confucius – an actual human being, who was an artist and aesthetician as well as a social thinker and educator. Kano was instrumental in reestablishing the 'Confucius Festival' at Yushima Seido in 1907. Now, thanks to Kano's efforts, every April 4 there is a ceremony to commemorate Confucius, the patron of learning and rational thinking, at Yushima Hall”. - page 80
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Thu May 01, 2014 1:19 pm

    fredlinux wrote:CK wrote:
    I quoted it literally, and I don't think it specifies "the academy".
    ......
    The "academy" is clearly the Kano Juku in the book, that was a Confucian Academy, so the conflict is clear.

    ......
    Actually, Confucianism is not a religion in most manifestations; it remains neutral on the topic of dieties etc by and large.

    If Honda was breaking the rules of the school, which were very Confucian and rigid, that would do it for Kano.

    NBK
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu May 01, 2014 1:50 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Actually, Confucianism is not a religion in most manifestations; it remains neutral on the topic of dieties etc by and large.  


    Neither Deities, nor a God figure is required in order to have a religion as has been long established by anthropologists and comparative religions scholars. Social constructionism has long held that relgions are simply orientation systems that help to interpret reality and define human beings. As with most relgions, Confucianisms shares being an ethical system. A good resource to read that looks much deeper into this issue is Yong chen: "Confucianism as Religion: Controversies and Consequences", Brill Publ, Leiden, the Netherlands, 2013.

    Some excerpts are available on line.


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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Thu May 01, 2014 2:59 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    Actually, Confucianism is not a religion in most manifestations; it remains neutral on the topic of dieties etc by and large.  


    Neither Deities, nor a God figure is required in order to have a religion as has been long established by anthropologists and comparative religions scholars. Social constructionism has long held that relgions are simply orientation systems that help to interpret reality and define human beings. As with most relgions, Confucianisms shares being an ethical system. A good resource to read that looks much deeper into this issue is Yong chen: "Confucianism as Religion: Controversies and Consequences", Brill Publ, Leiden, the Netherlands, 2013.

    Some excerpts are available on line.
    The Crips and the Bloods have ethical systems - doesn't make them religions.

    There is a reason that the word 'controversy' is in the title of the book - it is not generally accepted that most mainstream Confucianism is a religion.

    Kano's juku had very Spartan rules - I'm reading them now - and Honda was breaking the rules, including by leaving to attend church. He could have been going to the movies and I believe that Kano would have expelled him from the juku; nevertheless, they remained on good terms for decades, and I believe that Honda remained a Christian.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri May 02, 2014 3:06 am

    NBK wrote:

    The Crips and the Bloods have ethical systems - doesn't make them religions.

    There is a reason that the word 'controversy' is in the title of the book - it is not generally accepted that most mainstream Confucianism is a religion.  

    Kano's juku had very Spartan rules - I'm reading them now - and Honda was breaking the rules, including by leaving to attend church.  He could have been going to the movies and I believe that Kano would have expelled him from the juku; nevertheless, they remained on good terms for decades, and I believe that Honda remained a Christian.

    Logic 101. The fact that A has C in common does not imply that everything that has C in common equals A.

    I am satisfied to have studied Confuciansim at university as part of the course of Comparative Religions, and as a separate Asian Philosophy, and as part of Political institutions of China and Japan, and as part of history. It is based on overwhelmingly secular teachings, and Confucius himself was a guy, a thinker that wasn't deified, but the confucianist system as such goes a lot further than simply freely admiring his ideas. It's an imposed system, politically, socially, ethically and even if playing hardball and bluntly refusing to recognize it as a religion still manifests itself as a quasi-religion. Assuming that Kanô's views and way of reasoning are represented correctly, his rejection of religion while imposing such apparently strict rules that guide one socially, philosophically, educationally, and as a world view (at least as depicted in this thread), resemble in itself something that is quasi-religious. The li in Confucianism take the form of rituals (cfr. the Book of Rites, a critical tool in the Confucianism of the Zhou Dynasty), and the I-Ching, part of the 5 Confucian Classics is not merely ethical or political, but metaphysical. The tian in Confucianism is essentially a form of pantheism, and in the Analects #6 Confucius discusses the worshipping of the Shen.

    Part of the controversy is centuries-old and due to how it was differently perceived by Western relgious orders who visited China. The Jesuits perceived Confucianism as not being a religion, but the Franciscans and Dominicans perceived Confucianism as a religion, some of the pantheic aspects for them being the worshipping of ancestors, in this being followed by Pope Benedict XIV who formally banned the such worshipping and most aspects of the Book of Rites as heretic. In this way, Confucianism is a non-theistic religion. The Song and Shang also amply implemented Confucianism in a way that exceeded a mere ethical system in the sense of ...The Crips and the Bloods, me thinks.

    The Mandate of Heaven or "Divine right" was an interesting political justification tool that drew from more than merely political or ethical tradition.


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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Fri May 02, 2014 2:47 pm

    The thread topic is Kano and religion; certainly Kano was greatly influenced by Confucianism in many senses of the word. Call it being informed with a Confucian world view, demonstrating a code of ethics, adopting much of it as the base of his own ideas, sure, but I have never seen any data to support the notion that he adhered to it to the point of likening it to his religion. I'd be interesting in seeing anything supporting that notion. I can find only isolated mentions by Kano of Confucius or Confucianism.

    Actually, I wish I could ascribe to your thesis - it would greatly simplify a big problem for me. For now let me take the antithesis. Your inferences seem logical to a certain degree but I can't find hard data.

    I, too, studied such in graduate school. I also collect contemporary writings on Japanese neo-Confucianism and its role in Meiji, Taisho, and Showa culture, and sought out Japan's foremost Confucian scholars to understand the difference between the abstracts of Chinese Confucianism overviews and the realities of Meiji era Japan, separated by some 2400 yrs, at least 400 yrs of independent Japanese evolution and refinement, and a far different culture.

    NBK

    For folks to whom this is stupidly arcane (probably most, by this point), here's a quick introduction to the topic: Madison Morrison on Confucianism in Japan In places it's not easy to follow who he quotes but they are well known commentaries on Japanese society.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by NBK on Mon May 19, 2014 7:24 pm

    Glancing through multiple materials from Honda, he makes it clear - Kano did not dismiss him because of his conversion to Christianity. Honda did convert to Christianity while Kano was abroad, and he and others discussed Kano's reaction to that, but Honda was dismissed because Honda, along with others, was entrusted with the management of the juku dojo while Kano went to Europe for extended study, and they did not, shall we say, provide proper oversight and prudent financial management during Kano's absence.

    When Kano returned he cleaned house, so to speak, but shortly later Honda remained on excellent terms with Kano. Kano later introduced Honda to positions that shaped his career, and apparently Honda voiced personal appreciation of Kano's guidance and discipline.

    At the same time, Honda is very clear that he thought Kano hated Christianity.
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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon May 19, 2014 11:27 pm

    NBK wrote:Glancing through multiple materials from Honda, he makes it clear - Kano did not dismiss him because of his conversion to Christianity.  Honda did convert to Christianity while Kano was abroad, and he and others discussed Kano's reaction to that, but Honda was dismissed because Honda, along with others, was entrusted with the management of the juku dojo while Kano went to Europe for extended study, and they did not, shall we say, provide proper oversight and prudent financial management during Kano's absence.  

    When Kano returned he cleaned house, so to speak, but shortly later Honda remained on excellent terms with Kano. Kano later introduced Honda to positions that shaped his career, and apparently Honda voiced personal appreciation of Kano's guidance and discipline.  

    At the same time, Honda is very clear that he thought Kano hated Christianity.  

    Thanks for looking into this, NBK, very useful and appreciated. Honda is an interesting figure and the material you provide is enlightening to many.

    It is very well possible that Kanô disliked or maybe even hated Christianity, but this in itself, honestly is not at all the same as hating/disliking religion in general. We know that many Americans, presumably about most who has a friend or family that were lost in 9/11 will dislike or hate Islam, but that does not mean they dislike/hate religion as many of those who dislike/hate Islam will in fact be Christians as well as atheists and probably mixture of other religions. Kanô's own Shintô family tradition, his choice for a Shintô grave, and similar require much stronger and specific evidence to enable such conclusion. I dislike baseball, cricket, baskeball, but it does not mean I dislike sports; I still like track & field, jûdô and many other.


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    Re: Kanô Jigorô and religion (again ...)

    Post by fredlinux on Tue May 20, 2014 12:18 am

    The email below from Dr Andreas Niehaus was taken from a brazilian thesis:

    Re: Contribution to research Judo
    From: Andreas Niehaus
    To: Sérgio Oliveira dos Santos

    Dear colleague, please excuse my late reply, but it has been quite hectic here in Ghent.... I certainly agree with your analysis of influences on Kano Jigoro.

    May I also suggest to take a look into Buddhist thought? The concept of jita is also used in Buddhist philosophy. Buddhist schools are for example divided into jiriki and tariki schools. Jiriki-schools rely on the power of the zelfs/person for enlightenment and tariki-schools rely on the help of the boddhisattvas and other helpers. Kano certainly opposed any form of religion as can be seen in his writings, however I think that it can be argued that certain philosophical concepts belong to the core of a culture. The ethical and moral system in Europe is for example very much influenced by Christian beliefs although life and law are secular now, the under current would still be a unconscious Christian grid of moral beliefs. The same could be argued in the case of Buddhism in Japan. Even people not believing in Buddhism can and will still be adapting Buddhist values as they are part of a cultural memory.

    Best

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