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    Carlos Graña

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    Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Carlos Graña on Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:20 am

    Hi Everyone,

    This week I underwent Lasik Eye Surgery, Finally I've gotten rid of my miopia and astigmatism. How long should many weeks before starting my judo training again? Any opinions here? I don't want to rush back to judo to have quit again due to an injury in the cornea or something like that.The eye doctor mentioned about two weeks before starting normal exercising again. I don't think she's familiar with judo though.

    Any input thanks.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:47 am

    Carlos Graña wrote:Hi Everyone,

    This week I underwent Lasik Eye Surgery, Finally I've gotten rid of my miopia and astigmatism. How long should many weeks before starting my judo training again? Any opinions here? I don't want to rush back to judo to have quit again due to an injury in the cornea or something like that.The eye doctor mentioned about two weeks before starting normal exercising again. I don't think she's familiar with judo though.

    Any input thanks.

    As far as I recall the issue is not addressed in Dr. Anthony Cantanese's book "The Medical Care of the Judoka: A Guide for Athletes, Coaches and Referees ...". Besides what you mention is a very individual issue and one that is delicate. You have only two eyes and they are very valuable, so not the kind of thing to experiment with. Given these circumstances I believe it probably wouldn't be prudent for anyone to start speculating, although obviously someone who has undergone the same procedure 'could' share 'their' situation and experience. I am sorry to hear that the eye doctor you saw may not have solid experience with jûdô athletes. That being said, really only qualified physician with expertise in the condition you have, and who has access to your medical file can take the medical responsibility to to advise. None of us has those data and I do not know of anyone here who is an ophthalmologist either. Sorry, I can't be of more help.


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:01 pm

    I have had the surgery at Moorfields Hospital London. I would wait for some 3 to 4 weeks at least till you have finished using all the post operative eye drops. I would then go back to your surgeon for a comprehensive eye examination - you should do this anyway (and I am assuming that you already have had one check 24 hours after surgery) and if all is fine re-start judo. That's my experience anyway.

    I guess you could do uchikomi only a bot earlier.


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    judoclimber

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by judoclimber on Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:42 pm

    i don't know when you should start practicing again, but i do have an opinion (i am a non-medical person) about what to do when you start.  I think you need to find some sort of eye protection -- you have weakened the integrity of the eye, so it seems reasonable to think it will be more vulnerable to injury.   Perhaps I am wrong, and they remove such a tiny amount of material when reshaping the eye, that it doesn't matter and isn't significantly more risk.  i have had recent eye injury, so i am sensitive to this issue. good vision is so precious

    i have found some mention of eyeguards on wrestling forums & google searches.  Some people are trying to use squash/racquetball polycarbonate glasses, though apparently they are a bit annoying when they fog up.  (Though if you had myopia and astigmatism before, you'd be used to poor vision, and should already understand that good vision is not necessary for Judo. )  Perhaps somewhere there is a rubber/plastic coated tough 'grid' type of glasses, that would disperse impact & stop direct contact, but without a solid barrier would not fog up.

    so, anyway here is my sob story from earlier in the week:

    We had been drilling the arm-snatch-and-roll escape/counter-attack from turtle, so, as is my habit I gave him a chance at succeeding with it live -- during randori when he turtled up, I dangled my arm and waited. He is a nice fellow, but also a long-limbed gangly spazz, so he didn't simply/easily/safely use his arm/elbow to control my arm above the elbow, like we'd been drilling ... instead he basically reared up, twisted over sideways and lashed out with his pointyness, elbow-striking me in the eye. Ow, i had to stop for a bit, did hurt, couldn't see anything.   I guess my lessons learned: don't get complacent, always try to protect my face better, and predict dangerous situations.

    the next day or two later, i think, i was seeing flashes of lightning inside my eye, and many black floaters, blurry blobs swimming about in front of everything i see. The specialist saw me, then used a laser to 'weld' the retinal tear back down, and stop any detachment.  Even now i keep having moments that I'm seeing flies/mosquitos buzzing around me, or cockroaches crawling on the floor, then i realize its just another floater.  Especially distracting when trying to read a book or a white computer screen, or focus on someones face in a conversation, it randomly gets obscured with a blurry blob . it's rather annoying to say the least! I'll get used to it, and probably start wearing a patch, so i just get a clear image through the right eye.  Floaters _might_ fade with time ... but Doc says most likely won't and i'm stuck with them forever now. Well, there may be a new laser in one clinic in Sydney that can zap them, but it's so new, that I'm not sure how much it'll cost, how well it works or if i'm a suitable candidate.

    Every time I get a bit cranky about it, i just remind myself that I'm actually bloody lucky I can still focus clearly when i try, can still read, can still see everything I need to. I've just got a few extra annoyances, that in the big scheme of things, are pretty minor. In a lot of parts of the world, that tear would have progressed to a full detachment and full loss of vision. Wonders of science & lasers!

    Of course I'm aching to get back to training, in a week or so ... but ... part of me is wary now too. I will feel like a fricken IDIOT if i sustain more eye damage in the future from grappling.  hence my desire to find if there is any eye protection out there. maybe need to invent something.

    ps. haven't told my wife that a Judo accident was the likely cause of the eye problem. Instead i'm stressing the myopia and family history of retinal detachment, saying it was just bad luck. which is basically true ... from a certain point of view.

    judoclimber

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by judoclimber on Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:09 pm

    ah!  this is just the sort of thing i was imagining, a wire grid mask, relatively low profile, with heavy-duty strapping,  made to resist high impact, and hopefully also exclude probing fingernails, while not fogging up.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brine-Concept-LAX-LaCrosse-Protective-Eye-Mask-Guard-Black-/141175675290

    or if you want to get a bit sleeker, and would like the option of prescription lenses, and are willing to put up with fogging (or experiment with anti-fogging solutions, or risking structural integrity by drilling vent-holes) there is this::

    http://www.zennioptical.com/741921-prescription-sports-glasses.html#reviewSec

    what part of "no hard objects" do you fail to grasp? Do you like your ears, nose, and partners? If you do, you would never recommend anything of the sort.
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    Neil G

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Neil G on Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:04 am

    The FDA recommends no strenuous or contact sports for one month. However, the flap that they remove doesn't fully heal for about 6 months (some say as much as 2 years) and I would be concerned about direct eye contact or even hard breakfalls. I would consult with your doctors and explain the violent nature of judo.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Stacey on Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:10 am

    I did PRK to avoid having to sit out very long. Yes, they do recommend 6 months, and I was told by my doc in 2008 that 6 months is recommended for serious contact sports. I may have hemmed and hawed about it, but I know somebody who did LASIK and 2 months later, that flap thing detatched in a bit of newaza, so really, take your time getting back.

    As for the person who suggests eye protection - no, just no. Anything you put on your face is a huge problem. Anybody who's worn eye protection and played rugby knows better. Anybody who's ever worn eye protection and been boxing or involved in any sort of martial art knows better. If you want a broken nose and other problems, use eye protection.
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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:24 am

    This is why I've not had LASIK. It "thins" an already dicey eyeball (short-sighted folks have something like a 100% increase in retinal detachment....and that's before any LASIK related trauma)

    Dunno about the goggles; if it's a choice between googles or go blind; I'd try the goggles.

    I'm thankful that judo is an activity I can enjoy without best of vision (-6.5). I've never even had to wear contacts (nor wanted to)

    judoclimber

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by judoclimber on Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:28 am

    ** What the HECK is going on!?  **

    somehow the 'Post Number 5' in this thread is being attributed to me, but i didn't write it.  I did  write the start of the post suggesting goggle options, but then someone else has written the snarky comment at the end:

       "what part of "no hard objects" do you fail to grasp? Do you like your ears, nose, and partners? If you do, you would never recommend anything of the
         sort."

    I'm guessing there is a moderator who has gotten emotionally involved with what I wrote, perhaps made a mistake with your editing options?  If you would care to own your own comments, that would be the honourable thing to do, and discussion can continue.  

    Otherwise, people are going to think i'm going mad, debating myself here, heh :-)
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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Stacey on Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:57 am

    I don't know what happened to the comment portion as my first comment came out after my second comment - might not be getting it.

    Listen, it's not the errant fingernail or the impact that's the problem; it's the torque to your face/head area that makes any sort of goggles impossible. You'll never see wrestlers, MMA people, sambo players, sumotori, or judoka wearing those things because they both value their own faces and they value the health of their partners and opponents.

    The IJF RULE that states "no hard objects" does not make an exception for goggles or anything of the sort. It's a good rule, especially when it comes to goggles and the sort - all it takes is an offset force to your goggles and the bridge of your nose is the first thing that's going to go.

    My friend who had his flap detach did it while practicing senkaku jime. It was the twisting pressure on his face/eyes that caused the problem. If you want to see the problem, get a cheap pair of swim goggles, be uke in a senkaku jime, and try to escape - see where your goggles wind up.

    Swim goggles have a nice, forgiving plastic nose bridge and nice padding about the lens portion. Eyewear you wear in basketball or racketball, or lacrosse, like the link you posted, will totally screw up your head. Since they aren't as forgiving as your partner's legs, as it moves around your head, the edges of the eyewear will press into various parts of your face, including your eyes. If you really want to scoop out your eyes, find a novice to help you out with it - no experienced judoka will practice with you while you have something like that on your face.

    Now, let's get into what a CAGE will do to your partners (we won't talk about opponents since no shiai on earth will allow you to wear something like that during competition - it's a rule that no tournament director will compromise on). Do you really think it's a good idea to allow goggles as the only hard object on a person? What do you think that will do to your partner? In newaza or standing - you're going to at a minimum bruise the crap out of your partner. At a maximum - you could screw them up for life, catching fingers, breaking bones, costing teeth, scraping out the eyes of your partner.

    Why on earth do you think there would be an exception for a cage like apparatus to protect eyes? People play judo blind. Hell, my vision before PRK and for the bulk of my judo career was 20/600 in the best eye. I could not see the starting lines on the floor. I did not have toes. I could not see which way the ref was turned, let alone distinguish the hand signals for anything other than ippon. Refs had no faces, and neither did my opponent unless I was right up on them. 20/600 - that means what a normal person can see 600 feet away, I couldn't see unless I was 20 feet away. That big "E" on the eye chart? pft! I couldn't see the eye chart without my glasses.

    Listen; if there was a safe way to accomplish playing judo with corrective lenses, I would have done it. PRK - no flap. Best bet for this near sighted astigmatic.

    Any sort of protection for the flap will cause problems with the possible exception of a bandage lens - it's essentially a soft contact lens that protects your eyeball. It's soft, doesn't stick out, won't injure you, and won't injure your partner. Like contact lenses, you can wear them in shiai. How much abrasion and concussion they can withstand, I don't know; they didn't make soft contacts for people with my level of necessary correction.

    The little clasps on pony tail rubberbands are outlawed because they can harm partners and the wearers. What do you think's going to happen with a cage on your face?
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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Stacey on Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:05 am

    OP: fwiw, I went to a doc who specialized in athletes including wrestlers as well as people who want to get into special forces. At the time, 2008 - a bit dated, he said 6 months with LASIK to make sure it was fully healed. PRK was recommended because it didn't require cutting a flap, took a lot less time to heal up, but cost me my sight for about 2 weeks as my epithelial cells grew back. And when I say, "cost me my sight" I mean other than that first day, my sight was the worst it had ever been, can't drive, can't read, can't even tell if my shirt is buttoned right. After 2 weeks, my vision got better and better and better. I still wasn't allowed back to judo for 6 weeks, but to me, it beat the hell out of 6 months and the weakness of having a flap cut.

    Scott had to get the flap re-attached. That time, he waited the required 6 months and has been going strong ever since.

    judoclimber

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by judoclimber on Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:27 am

    Stacey wrote:Listen, it's not the errant fingernail or the impact that's the problem; it's the torque to your face/head area that makes any sort of goggles impossible.  You'll never see wrestlers, MMA people, sambo players, sumotori, or judoka wearing those things because they both value their own faces and they value the health of their partners and opponents.

    So I'll never see any grapplers wearing those things?  OK.  heh.  

    You know, here's where this internet thingy really comes into its own -- it give you a window into the whole big world beyond your own little fishbowl.  So, over the last few days I've learned about other peoples thoughts and experiences with grappling in goggles.  The Lehigh University wrestler Jon Trenge, he had a whole career wearing goggles, in what is easily the most face-smearing style of grappling around.  Retinal tears drove him to finding a creative solution.  

    Here's a great vid of him in action: www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_9UAvhknqg

    Stacey wrote:The IJF RULE that states "no hard objects" does not make an exception for goggles or anything of the sort.  It's a good rule, especially when it comes to goggles and the sort - all it takes is an offset force to your goggles and the bridge of your nose is the first thing that's going to go.

    Oh!  it's an ijf 'RULE' , thank you for the all-caps, how silly of me to 'forget' that rule! Thank you for the reminder, I will join you in kowtowing to such a respected  authority as our beloved IJF.  Umm... actually, no hold on ... that's right, my dojo doesn't have to follow those rules, now does it?  My dojo can find its own way.   Maybe its a question of  determining  the value of having/not-having an experienced practitioner working out on the mats with some eye protection, versus the risk of injury to self or others.

    BTW. 'no hard objects' also disallows ear-protection.  Do you realize that the experience of countless wrestlers all over the world, is that hard ear protection does NOT lead to needless & traumatic injury to their partners, dangerous twisting of their head etc?   Sorry, not meaning to disrespect your precious IJF rules.  

    Oh, thank you for your thoughts about the dangers of goggles.  I've never actually held a pair of those lacrosse goggles just seen pics on the net, and your fears might be valid, I'll keep them in mind if i ever try them.  But you know, a self-supporting & convincing story doesn't actually mean it'll hold up to the test of real-life experience -- maybe you're wrong.   I've spoken now with several BJJ'ers around the world, who have used other types of goggles or trained with those who did.  They all are saying there are some minor annoyances which you can get past.  I've specifically asked about damage to partners, and get nil reports of it.   Here, you can read about the experience of a BJJ'er, Josh Vogel:

    Pt 1 http://joshvogelart.blogspot.com/2011/11/grappling-goggles-day-one-by-josh-vogel.html?m=1

    Pt 2 http://joshvogelart.blogspot.com/2011/12/goggles-for-grappling-part-deux.html?m=1

    Pt 3 http://joshvogelart.blogspot.com/2011/12/goggles-for-grappling-part-three.html?m=1

    Listen; if there was a safe way to accomplish playing judo with corrective lenses, I would have done it.

    Well, it looks like there might be a safe way, and unfortunately you didn't find it.  Maybe because you didn't question some of these assumptions you've made?  I don't know.  There are  many approaches to problem-solving.  Going by your prior post, you may prefer to obey the authorities  like the IJF or your ophthalmologist?    That's ok.  I think there's room for all approaches.  I prefer to get creative and generate ideas, talk to other people in my community(Judoka), talk to people in similar yet different communities(wrestlers, BJJers), certainly consider the wisdom & rationale behind tradition, seek out what has been tried and what hasn't, keep safety foremost in mind, maybe run some experiments, not be afraid of failing, and so forth.  Who knows what might might be discovered?
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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Stacey on Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:33 am

    Dude, it's been a rule of every dojo I've ever been to. It's been a rule of the IJF since before there was a chewie (do you know what that was?), back when they allowed leg locks, and probably before.

    The assumptions I've made are practical. If you've ever had an offset hit or bump while wearing sports goggles in any sport that allows them, you know that anything that twists them will cause you, the wearer, a ton of damage.

    I'll also note the number of people who've responded with their own experiences. I note that NOBODY has offered a link or an opinion about the eyewear they wear.

    I wouldn't waste my money on them just to find out nobody will work with you while you're wearing them - but then, we're talking generation upon generation of judoka bowing to the IJF. YOU use your common sense, buy a set of goggles, and see what the response is.

    judoclimber

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by judoclimber on Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:43 pm

    Stacey wrote:Dude, it's been a rule of every dojo I've ever been to.  It's been a rule of the IJF since before there was a chewie (do you know what that was?),

    No, actually at first I wasn't sure what you were talking about -- gum?  Star Wars?  Ahhh ... you're trying to write about the 'chui' penalty I presume?

    back when they allowed leg locks, and probably before.

    um, the IJF has never allowed leg locks, what are you thinking?  If you're trying to reference the earliest Kodokan rules, then yes of course, I agree, they weren't made with consideration to any modern safety technology.  Hard ear protection like millions of wrestlers use, and the polycarbonate lenses, place, and elastic strapping of these googles would take another 100 years or so to be invented, so that's not too surprising, really.

    Still, I get the message, you value highly all the guidance passed down from the earliest days of Judo.  I'm curious -- you would stick with the tradition of white stripes on women's belts too, right?  After all, even for something as important as the possibility of improving eye safety, you won't consider experimenting or changing a traditional dojo rule like this 'hard objects' one.  

    Stacey wrote:the assumptions I've made are practical.  If you've ever had an offset hit or bump while wearing sports goggles in any sport that allows them, you know that anything that twists them will cause you, the wearer, a ton of damage.

    Did you fail to watch the video I provided, of a high level successful wrestler wearing goggles?  Did you fail to read the blog of the BJJ'er who has done the same?  Did you fail to read when I said I've heard from several other grapplers who have _done_ it, and NOT seen injury to themselves or others?

    Your assumptions & your statements in this thread of which I'm talking of - all of which are wrong, and several rather insulting to me - that:
    - i don't value my training partners
    - i don't value my own eyes,
    - no grapplers would ever wear eye protection
    - wearing eye protection damages yourself
    - wearing eye protection damages others
    - i 'fail to grasp no hard objects' rule
    - there is no safe way to wear corrective lenses while playing Judo
    - you'll never even see other grapplers wearing eye protection

     I'll also note the number of people who've responded with their own experiences.  I note that NOBODY has offered a link or an opinion about the eyewear they wear.
     
    yes, so what? This is because wearing eyewear when grappling is very rare, it's a fringe activity that most of us have never seen, or even known was possible.  It's just hypothetical for most of us, and you only consider such a thing when you're unlucky enough to suffer an eye injury.

    I wouldn't waste my money on them just to find out nobody will work with you while you're wearing them - but then, we're talking generation upon generation of judoka bowing to the IJF.  YOU use your common sense, buy a set of goggles, and see what the response is.

    You think one will want to work with me if i have hard eye protection? The closest I've come is occasionally wearing (hard!) wrestling ear-guards to Judo, when i've had a bad cauliflower flareup.  At those times, as normal, I have a lineup of Judoka wanting to work with me.  I'm a great uke, and my club-mates all feel lucky to have me training there, even if I have my health problems that make me deviate from the 'normal' practitioner you would seem to prefer.  I expect it'll be the same with eye protection, if it turns out they are safe enough to use for all concerned.  Going by the experience of BJJ'ers and wrestlers (pretty much as close as a Judo-like context as you can get) it's looking good.    As to a waste of money -- well, we're talking $30 or so, and less on ebay, so I'm not worried.

    anyway thanks for the debate, it has been fun and fiery i must admit :-) i really need to get some work done, but i'll check back later.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by Stacey on Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:27 am

    no, I'm not assuming you don't value people; I'm assuming that you're ignorant of the subject. I'm not assuming stupid, I'm not assuming psychopathic/lack of empathy, I'm assuming ignorance. I'm assuming you've never worn headgear for wrestling, and as a result, you've never had it spin on you. I'm assuming you've never had to tape your ears down playing rugby or in grappling and experienced that tape try to spin on you (fwiw, when you tape your ears down for heavy contact sports, you make an entire circuit of the head to attempt to keep it in place. It does stay better, but it still can spin or be forcibly removed from your head before you want to - just like trying to tape an ankle or a toe - have you done that before? Are you familiar with how well that stuff stays on and how much tape you need to get it to stay on?).

    Truthfully; I quit reading your entire answers long ago. The OP is a judo veteran, well versed in what works and what doesn't. He'd never use something like this:
    And you gave people a good laugh with the suggestion. However, since there are a ton of novices on these boards, making such a suggestion without letting people know how downright dangerous such a thing would be, and how no reasonable sensei, instructor, or coach would allow person to work out in such a device.

    Lots of us have corrected our vision. Interesting, eh, that we choose laser correction rather than corrective lenses.

    judoclimber

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

    Post by judoclimber on Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:06 am

    Stacey wrote: ...<cut>...  I'm assuming you've never worn headgear for wrestling ... <cut>...

    Truthfully; I quit reading your entire answers long ago.  

     goodjob   heh, too funny - i've never worn headgear -  clearly your disclaimer is true!  

    Oh Stacey, I'm sorry then, since you're not up to the effort of reading an 'entire answer'  I will try to bow out of this thread here (with only just a few words, not too many for your concentration,  I hope).  Your questions, assumptions and worries have already been spoken to in my previous posts, so you are free to go back and read them, if you're ever feeling up to it.   Of course please know you are free to ignore them all, like you have been, and just have the last word on the matter.  Yep, much better idea, go for it.

    I'm glad you've had a laugh at my brainstorming (what is that kookiness eh?!) and I will have a chuckle with you too, it would be quite a confronting sight -- just imagine uke fully kitted up with goggles, rashguard, blue-gi, ear-guards, mouthguard, cups, wrestling booties -- it's almost leading back towards grappling in full samurai armour  Cool .   I'm also glad that you are so concerned with all of our safety - think of the novices!  think of the children!  - because safety should always be the top priority, I do agree with you there.  I wonder though, if on that drive for safety, there might be a road less traveled, just waiting to be explored?   ... nah, more crazytalk, for sure ...

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    Re: Judo after Lasik Eye Surgery

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