NBK wrote:ahem..... back to the point....
Billc raises a good question - are we drifting into 'where to throw' versus 'where to apply kuzushi'? Of course - it's inevitable, they are on a continuum. That continuum should be smooth, efficient, effective... Seiryoku zen'yo etc.....
Probably everyone has seen or experienced a poorly executed tai-otoshi - pulling / offbalancing forward but then the throw comes and tori shuts his own technique down by pulling down to soon. Uke either doesn't go or falls on tori's leg. Not good.
Bear in mind the distance is very close - within arms' reach from a static uke. Try it yourself - try offbalancing uke no farther than his extended _upper arm_ , and all you'll do is plant uke more firmly, reinforcing his balance rather than off-balancing him.
To JudoSensei's point:
"Thinking that uke is independent of tori is a huge misconception, and may even be reinforced by the drawings that are the subject of this topic. I'd rather see a drawing that somehow incorporates both into the equation. Throws where uke is projected over tori (e.g. kata guruma) have a different landing area than ones where uke drops straight down (e.g. okuriashi harai). ....."
Well, in a word, yes. I'll post some modified pix later, but the point is not primarily the landing area, the point is to define the direction of the initial kuzushi. Pull uke straight down and try to execute okuriashi harai with good sized uke with balance and see how far you get.
I'm going to have to tentatively disagree with the bolded statement. I'll have to get to training on Thursday night to make sure I'm not just imagining things.
Conceptually, I'll say that I understand your point in simple, static, situation. Practically, I think it's possible to generate sufficient kuzushi at that distance to throw efficiently.
It may be a matter of semantics, in that I don't exactly understand what you mean by "off balancing uke no farther than his extended upper arm". I don't really conceptualize effective kuzushi in terms of distance.
Do you mean uke needs to be "tipped" more than the distance of his upper arm, let's say, straight to the front if uke is in shizenhontai?
I did some rough sketching, using the length of my upper arm, the end of which would project beyond my toes enough to "tip" me "off balance". I also looked at some proportionate human figures and worked on them in a drawing program, and got the same result.
OK, here is some rough work. Measurements are approximate. Green is approximate length of figures upper arm. About 12 inches on a 6 foot tall person. My upper arm, at 5 ft 7 in of height, is about 10.25 inches using my handy dandy wooden ruler.
12 degrees of tip or so at the shoulder seems like sufficient to me. I think I could throw me with that much "kuzushi". I bet you could throw me, too !