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    Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

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    NBK

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by NBK on Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:47 am

    BillC wrote:
    NBK wrote:Just tried this over a couple of weeks with beginner and intermediate students.  Works almost without fail.  

    Video or it didn't happen ... I'll have my 41 megapixel yellow camera with phone on Saturday.  You got some 'splainin to do.
    That's a thought - I can bring my Flip video and a tripod.

    but we gotta find a reasonable uke, Your Stiffness.....

    NBK

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by NBK on Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:51 am

    Ranma wrote:
    NBK wrote:Hmm... already tried this without success. Something I'm doing wrong for the pix.

    Anyhow, there is the proper direction (as seen parallel to the mats) for kuzushi, then there's the proper 3D direction.

    I was taught it is generally about double the upper arm length of uke's upper arm - so seen from overhead, the correct distance is around that of uke's forearm, with a perpendicular drop down.

    Judo Vitruvian Man - Overhead

    Seen from the side, it looks somewhat like this:
    Judo Vitruvian Man

    With appropriate apologies to Leonardo - he was simply looking at proportions, I'm looking at equilibrium, kuzushi.

    Comments welcome - this is a work in progress.

    NBK

    I don't understand the purpose of these diagrams.  They may be technically correct but do not help you understand what's going on.  It's like teaching kids math to do by memorizing a formula.

    If I were to teach kuzushi I would teach Newtonian mechanics along with anatomy lessons.  Some simple examples would be that you don't throw from too far out because it's far from your center of mass and the leverage works against you.  You cannot throw too close because you don't leave space for uke's body, and an upright uke can use his center of mass against you.  Whereas a bent uke cannot.  You don't pull with your arms for kuzushi because it is weak compared to body movement.  But you do pull to lock uke onto your body, so you can use the body's rotational power.  You shouldn't attack a still opponent because it's too easy for him to adjust: force = mass * acceleration.  Acceleration from stillness implies that the move will be slow at first, giving uke time to react.  Thus it's a lot easier to tip a target moving where you want (velocity being the summation of acceleration).  And thus you need to predict where uke goes, but to do that you need to provide inputs to the system to get information about how it reacts (by pushes and pulls, attacks, moving, etc.).  Otherwise you have no information and are unlikely to move fast enough to capitalize.

    etc.
    The diagrams are an attempt to show the proper direction of kuzushi. There are assumptions that I didn't mention.
    Uke is in shizentai.
    Tori has a standard, correct grip.
    Certainly any deviations have an effect on the proper distance and direction.

    NBK

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:29 pm

    NBK wrote:Just tried this over a couple of weeks with beginner and intermediate students.  Works almost without fail.  

    How did you implement it ?


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:33 pm

    Ranma wrote:
    NBK wrote:Hmm... already tried this without success. Something I'm doing wrong for the pix.

    Anyhow, there is the proper direction (as seen parallel to the mats) for kuzushi, then there's the proper 3D direction.

    I was taught it is generally about double the upper arm length of uke's upper arm - so seen from overhead, the correct distance is around that of uke's forearm, with a perpendicular drop down.

    Judo Vitruvian Man - Overhead

    Seen from the side, it looks somewhat like this:
    Judo Vitruvian Man

    With appropriate apologies to Leonardo - he was simply looking at proportions, I'm looking at equilibrium, kuzushi.

    Comments welcome - this is a work in progress.

    NBK



    I don't understand the purpose of these diagrams.  They may be technically correct but do not help you understand what's going on.  It's like teaching kids math to do by memorizing a formula.

    If I were to teach kuzushi I would teach Newtonian mechanics along with anatomy lessons.  Some simple examples would be that you don't throw from too far out because it's far from your center of mass and the leverage works against you.  You cannot throw too close because you don't leave space for uke's body, and an upright uke can use his center of mass against you.  Whereas a bent uke cannot.  You don't pull with your arms for kuzushi because it is weak compared to body movement.  But you do pull to lock uke onto your body, so you can use the body's rotational power.  You shouldn't attack a still opponent because it's too easy for him to adjust: force = mass * acceleration.  Acceleration from stillness implies that the move will be slow at first, giving uke time to react.  Thus it's a lot easier to tip a target moving where you want (velocity being the summation of acceleration).  And thus you need to predict where uke goes, but to do that you need to provide inputs to the system to get information about how it reacts (by pushes and pulls, attacks, moving, etc.).  Otherwise you have no information and are unlikely to move fast enough to capitalize.

    etc.

    I think it's a lot simpler than that. No need to explain much, just teach it correctly, correct mistakes and there you go.



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:35 pm

    Looking forwardo video of Billc and NBK. Will you use the traditional bars over NBKIs eyes, or just blur out his whole head ?


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    BillC

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by BillC on Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:12 pm

    NBK wrote:That's a thought - I can bring my Flip video and a tripod.

    but we gotta find a reasonable uke, Your Stiffness.....

    Don't feed me straight lines, Mr. Natural.

    But you gotta coupla brandy new shodan ... a year or two younger than me I reckon.


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    BillC

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by BillC on Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:14 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Looking forwardo video of Billc and NBK. Will you use the traditional bars over NBKIs eyes, or just blur out his whole head ?

    Pixelation ... in Japan they use pixelation ... or so I heard. Rolling Eyes 


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    Ranma

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ranma on Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:54 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ranma wrote:

    I don't understand the purpose of these diagrams.  They may be technically correct but do not help you understand what's going on.  It's like teaching kids math to do by memorizing a formula.

    If I were to teach kuzushi I would teach Newtonian mechanics along with anatomy lessons.  Some simple examples would be that you don't throw from too far out because it's far from your center of mass and the leverage works against you.  You cannot throw too close because you don't leave space for uke's body, and an upright uke can use his center of mass against you.  Whereas a bent uke cannot.  You don't pull with your arms for kuzushi because it is weak compared to body movement.  But you do pull to lock uke onto your body, so you can use the body's rotational power.  You shouldn't attack a still opponent because it's too easy for him to adjust: force = mass * acceleration.  Acceleration from stillness implies that the move will be slow at first, giving uke time to react.  Thus it's a lot easier to tip a target moving where you want (velocity being the summation of acceleration).  And thus you need to predict where uke goes, but to do that you need to provide inputs to the system to get information about how it reacts (by pushes and pulls, attacks, moving, etc.).  Otherwise you have no information and are unlikely to move fast enough to capitalize.

    etc.

    No offense Ranma ... but there are too many exceptions to your conclusions here ... you can cut an opponent straight down though his knees may complain ... some very good attacks work best on a still opponent ... pulling is over-rated ... at least that's my experience.  Kuzushi is not a specific thing tori does, it is not equivalent to pushing or pulling, it is the state or condition that tori seeks to create in uke.  Kuzushi is a noun if I am not mistaken.  

    I like NBK's concept, and he told me where he got it, I just would not have labeled it a "kuzushi zone."  As we get into this excellent thread, I now know why.

    I don't disagree with his concept nor do I deny it can help people learn how to make kuzushi. But it's not how I would like to understand kuzushi, so that it can help me refine my attacks.

    No offense taken, but I don't see how those conclusions are mine. Not sure why the "cut an opponent straight down" was brought up. I don't disagree a there are techniques possible for attacking still opponents*, I think what I said about pulling (with hands) doesn't contradict you, and I didn't define kuzushi as just pushing or pulling. But you do need to do something or there won't be much kuzushi (on a good opponent).

    * That's why I said "shouldn't". Unless you catch someone unaware or unskilled, it is easy for uke to adjust and ruin your attack. Even if you do go straight in on a still opponent, often a good judoka will do a quick lapel tug in the opposite direction to get a reaction.

    Actually let me step back. What attacks do you think are best on a still opponent?

    BillC

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:16 am

    Ranma wrote:

    Actually let me step back.  What attacks do you think are best on a still opponent?

    Thanks for your response, I am really enjoying the exchange in this excellent thread,

    Without making a comprehensive list, there are lots of techniques which are easier on an opponent who is standing still, especially in a wide stance. Ouchigari comes particularly to mind. Or the so-called "white belt dump" kouchigari. Granted, these work on a moving partner as well, that's why we practice for this reality. But nothing quite like knocking the wheels out from a person just at the moment they have locked their body, planted themselves and taking them straight down.

    I don't have time at the moment to go back and find it, but I recall Yamashita commenting that it was easiest to catch uchimata at the moment a person stops, or just before they move.

    Maybe you can talk further about your "Newtonian mechanics" concept, that's kind of where I lost you, and my response intended for "don'ts" that followed.

    Cheers.

    Bill


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

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    Ranma

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ranma on Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:22 am

    I think there are different definitions of "best". I was referring partially from a physics standpoint, where the metric is efficiency of energy (the least amount of force needed, but also relative strengths of muscle groups). On the other hand, your examples are efficient in the sense that the frequency of opportunity could be higher. Even broader, we could argue even moments of stillness is a response to prior actions, so teaching beginners how to create the state of kuzushi in uke is really complicated.

    With that in mind, the mindset I like to take, and that I would teach, is that each throw has some ideal body postures that makes a technique applicable. And teach the mechanics of the technique. Finally, some efficient ways to achieve making uke take the posture.

    For example, osotogari has a fairly obvious requirement for uke: he needs to be back over his heel. The mechanics of osoto gari isn't so hard either - it's a see saw (or a mechanical couple as CK puts it). But what is really hard is making uke take this posture, since it's easily avoided.

    In other throws, the difficulty might arise from different sections, like required position or mechanical fundamentals. I'm just using osoto as an example.

    So in teaching osoto, after a student has mastered the mechanics, I would show how to make kuzushi. It is unrealistic to expect to capitalize on a split second mistake by uke. Most people fail to do osoto because of this. They almost treat it like a bad footsweep. They try to rush into it when they see it but are too late.

    My favorite method of getting osoto is to lead uke forward with his opposite foot, then apply. It has a lot more components to it, so I'd rather not type it all up. But I can say that I would never have developed it all without understanding the mechanics. A kuzushi diagram wouldn't have those components. It is way more complicated. You've got to understand several steps ahead to know how to create the moment.

    What I was trying to get at before is that many judo players are reactionary. Whereas I believe that real kuzushi is when you are proactive, and can manipulate uke into taking positions you anticipate. That is the only way you can up your accuracy, except I guess unless you an old master like Mifune who has an answer for everything... I wished I was that good, but I found out I wasn't.

    BillC

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by BillC on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:54 pm

    Ranma wrote:

    For example, osotogari has a fairly obvious requirement for uke: he needs to be back over his heel.  The mechanics of osoto gari isn't so hard either - it's a see saw.  But what is really hard is making uke take this posture, since it's easily avoided.


    What? You don't just block the knee with your extended leg and crush uke backwards with upper body strength, forcing him to either fall or lose the knee? Wink

    Nah ... kidding ... thanks for your post and clarification. I'd agree with just about everything you've written and the differences I hope to explore in person some day at the next Judo Forum Camp.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    DougNZ

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:20 pm

    BillC wrote:
    Ranma wrote:

    For example, osotogari has a fairly obvious requirement for uke: he needs to be back over his heel.  The mechanics of osoto gari isn't so hard either - it's a see saw.  But what is really hard is making uke take this posture, since it's easily avoided.


    What?  You don't just block the knee with your extended leg and crush uke backwards with upper body strength, forcing him to either fall or lose the knee? Wink


    Duh! That would be osoto otoshi. Wink

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:58 pm

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Looking forwardo video of Billc and NBK. Will you use the traditional bars over NBKIs eyes, or just blur out his whole head ?

    Pixelation ... in Japan they use pixelation ... or so I heard. Rolling Eyes 

    You say Pixelation, I say blurring...


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:00 pm

    Seriously, though, folks, I'm up for learning new approaches/methods/concepts of teaching judo, so please share, whether you use bars, pixelation, or just film from the neck down with distorted voices.



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    NBK

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by NBK on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:06 pm

    Ranma wrote:

    For example, osotogari has a fairly obvious requirement for uke: he needs to be back over his heel.  The mechanics of osoto gari isn't so hard either - it's a see saw.  But what is really hard is making uke take this posture, since it's easily avoided.


    That's the entire point - providing a framework under which tori applies forces in the optimal direction to make it less possible for uke to avoid everything else that follows. The mechanics of the throw work best when uke is off-balance - in the proper state of kuzushi.

    Ranma

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ranma on Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:02 pm

    Except the framework describes off balancing an inanimate object, whereas kuzushi in Judo requires accounting for uke's reactions.

    Just in the example of osotogari, how does the student understand from the framework that force is actually required nearly in the opposite direction of the throw!

    If you come straight in and try to off balance him to the rear, he will simply step away every time. Proper osotogari kuzushi requires a change of direction mid-action so that uke cannot move away. At least in my favored method anyway.

    Ranma

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by Ranma on Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:44 pm

    I'm probably thinking too much into this and should bow out... but...

    Another counter example to the distance framework is when you attack an uke moving sideways with a forward throw.  In that case you would step closer than normal forwards.  The difference arises from the key requirement that uke is tipped over your body and your hands are not left behind you.  For forwards direction you need the space to achieve this, whereas sideways the momentum and position of uke does the work for you.

    Anyway, I don't have a dojo to teach, so maybe it's better to use your diagrams.  Probably is easier for a beginner student to keep it simple.

    NBK

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    Re: Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

    Post by NBK on Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:13 am

    I pointed out the assumptions - uke staionary, standing in shizentai. Movement and different stances change the position and width of the optimal zone but not the basic concept or its utility.

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